Delivery options & recommendations: Miami to San Diego

[socalrider]

We are looking at a Leopard 47 power cat in Miami. Much as I'd love to do the trip, I don't think I can swing it. I've contracted a few different delivery skippers as well as shipping companies to try and get a handle on my options.

Shipping is very expensive - $65k+. I got one quote for delivery that was half that, and another that was about the same. That's a huge spread - I'd like to get a few more quotes to firm things up a bit budget-wise before moving forward.

Anyone have advice, contacts or recommendations? It's a long way to go for a boat, but we really would like four cabins in under 50', and love the stability, efficiency & option for speed that a power cat brings versus a sailing cat. This is one of the older ones with 150hp Cummins so should be pretty efficient.

 

[lwarden]

There's this delivery guy called Rick McCormick who's looking for delivery work.

Honestly, I would shop around for shipping quotes and go that way. The wear and tear as well as risk wouldn't be worth the difference IMO.

 

[socalrider]

There's this delivery guy called Rick McCormick who's looking for delivery work.

Honestly, I would shop around for shipping quotes and go that way. The wear and tear as well as risk wouldn't be worth the difference IMO.

Hah! Yeah I hear he rates himself quite highly! Thanks for the recommendation

Any shipping companies to recommend? For sure it seems like a heck of a lot less stress. I've tried Peters & May and Legend Yacht Transport so far.

 

[mvweebles]

The delivery quotes should be transparent. If they aren't, either you asked for the quote wrong or there's a yellow flag on one or both quotes. A delivery skipper obviously cannot accept financial risk for much of the costs, but they can make assumptions to help budget. How realistic they are in doing so is an indicator of their experience and approach to doing business. What type of assumptions? Fuel costs, Panama Canal fees, agent fees, travel, etc.). It's 4500 nms and about 500 engine hours at 9 knots, plus generator time. 3500 gals diesel at an average of around $4.50/gal - call it $16k in fuel alone. Canal fees are probably in the $4k-$5k range. Oil changes and lay days, you're probably looking at $25k in hard expenses. And you haven't purchased insurance yet.

As an aside, the aforementioned Ray McCormack talked a lot about a lawsuit he launched against a customer. Best I could define from Rays rambling is he was supposed to deliver the boat to Canada but left it in Port Angeles WA instead. Ray also wanted additional fees for repairs he made and some other nonsense. Owner countersued claiming Ray damaged the boat and didn't fulfill his contract. Owner won. Mind you, this is from Ray - why he would post this is beyond me but he did. Musings of Ray aside, clearly there was a mismatch of expectations and responsibilities between delivery skipper and owner, either through misunderstanding or lack of transparency (sort of the same I suppose).

To normalize the two delivery quotes, you should try to figure out where the differences are. At an extreme, let's say both their fees are the same but the expense assumptions differ - one guy assumed diesel is $2/gal and the boat will burn 4 gph. That won't happen and there is no way a delivery skipper can absorb this risk (not should they).

As a past delivery skipper who did a lot of shorthanded deliveries (myself plus one strong crew for most from SoCal to PNW), a delivery of this duration really needs a total of 3 crew plus captain. It could be done safely with total of 3, but in my opinion, having the 4th person on board allows more time for other work including cooking and keeping the boat clean. Refueling the boat will take a couple hours in a sweltering location.

Final thought is shipping rates went berserk during Covid and never returned to earth. Pre Covid I had a quote of $16k to Florida from Ensenada for Weebles. 6 months ago I received a quote of $25k from Costa Rica to Florida, less than half the distance.

I guess there are some creative options like hop-scotching the boat and leaving it in marinas for a while so you can cruise locally say Bahamas for a couple months, then have it delivered to Panama and cruise Bocas del Toros and transit the Canal before having it delivered to southern Mexico and cruise for a few months. You get the idea. It would take a couple years but there are some amazing cruising grounds that you may never see otherwise.

Unfortunately, there are not many power cats outside of Florida. So idea of buying one in California is a bit of a unicorn hunt. Maybe the sticker shock will wear off and $65k shipping becomes digestible.

Nice boat. Sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants.

Peter

 

[Fleming]

Your shipping from Miami to San Diego is going to be expensive because of the Jones Act requirements. You'd save a lot by shipping Miami to west coast of Mexico or from a Caribbean port to San Diego.

 

[mvweebles]

Your shipping from Miami to San Diego is going to be expensive because of the Jones Act requirements. You'd save a lot by shipping Miami to west coast of Mexico or from a Caribbean port to San Diego.

You are right. But I'm guessing the $65k was shipping to Ensenada MX just 80 nms away. I've never heard of a boat being shipped to San Diego though I'm sure it's happened given it's a huge military base and relocated personnel have liberal relocation plans. But for normal people, Ensenada is the only real option.

Peter

 

[socalrider]

Thanks a lot Peter - a lot of good stuff in that post. Indeed, the shipping quote is Ft Lauderdale to Ensenada.

I have a surveyor visiting the boat in FL Thursday to see if it's worth flying out & seeing, after that I'll try to lock down some pricing.

Fuel costs for the $60k delivery estimate include $15k for diesel - from what I've read, Leopard delivers these Power Cats on their own bottom from South Africa cruising at 7-8kts on one engine, getting 3-4nmpg. That seems like it would cut the fuel budget in half and put only 1/2 the wear on the engines. There's no generator.

If $60k is the right number for delivery, then shipping for the same cost is a no brainer unless I can hopscotch and take advantage of the cruising - tough to do since the kids are in school so our windows are in the hot, summer hurricane months. That's a real chunk of change there, tough pill to swallow. Hmm...

 

[mvweebles]

Shipping probably makes more sense. But s couple thoughts and a question on delivery.

Question: when the Leopards are delivered, so they run one engine at a time, or both? I would do whatever they do. Running on one engine sounds a bit gimmicky to me but maybe it's the right thing.

Headed north up the Pacific is a pretty pervasive adverse current. Probably lose a half knot on average.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the engine hours. I would worry about expense of making repairs if something breaks and you need to wait for parts with a crew at $600/day (or whatever the number is). Robust spares are your friend. Plus if it's something complicated, finding skilled technician can be difficult to impossible. Always seems to work out but takes time.

Not having a generator can be a hassle. Headed north up the Pacific will mean head seas. Often means the windows and ports must be closed so running the AC is helpful.

Power cats are really fun boats to use. Definition of casual elegance. Hope it works out for you.

Peter

 

[socalrider]

Thanks. I've heard that Leopard delivers them using one engine at a time. Also have heard reports of folks running single engines in charter and doing well at low speeds with reduced fuel consumption. Of course I'd need to verify all this. The boat currently doesn't have a generator or AC - my preference but I've never done a trip like this so that preference might change!

Just got another shipping quote... $80k.

I'm really starting to consider the "hop-scotch" approach of running the boat ourselves over a year or two to get it up here, maybe spending a summer or two in the Caribbean south of the hurricane zone (will I really regret not having AC?), seeing both sides of Panama, then maybe a winter in MX and up home early the next summer. Or maybe some combination of delivery and cruise.

 

[Mambo42]

There are quite a bit of videos of deliveries on Youtube and I have seen several different crews.
Some crews are very professional, they really know what they are doing and they take good care of the boat.
However, others I would not even hire to clean the boat. They invite complete strangers on your boat, sit with dirty clothes (or sweating) on your seats and sofa's, only know one power setting and that is of course full power, do no checks, hardly do any trip planning, basically start up and go. They take unnecessary risks with the weather and actually think they are doing a good job.

I have never hired a delivery skipper, so cannot talk out of experience, but when I would hire one, I would do a thorough back ground check and make a contract where it is clearly stated what they can or cannot do. In the end it is your boat and whatever they damage needs to be repaired, which means additional cost. Therefore it is better to prevent damage from happening.
Also on the fuel cost. Because of running at full power some of them only hop from fuel station to fuel station, while they could easily go at a much more economical speed, which would, in the end, take the same transit time and would be much friendlier on the boat as a whole.

With all that in mind, shipping the boat, although expensive, could perhaps be the best soluiton. Or, find a boat on the pacific side. Can save you a lot of headache.
Good luck

 

[lwarden]

Did you try Cross Chartering?
WWW.crosschartering.com

They brought a friend's boat from Ft Lauderdale to Ensenada a couple years ago and with the exception of a few rust spots on the deck which were resolved it was a good experience. I was about to ship my boat from the PNW to SD using Sevenstar, but the ship they were planning on putting it on was cancelled, so I had it trucked down. Sevenstar's original price was pretty competitive, about the same as having it delivered on the water. Then the prices started going up (this was during Covid). Trucking was a better deal so went that route in the end.

 

[socalrider]

Did you try Cross Chartering?
WWW.crosschartering.com

They brought a friend's boat from Ft Lauderdale to Ensenada a couple years ago and with the exception of a few rust spots on the deck which were resolved it was a good experience. I was about to ship my boat from the PNW to SD using Sevenstar, but the ship they were planning on putting it on was cancelled, so I had it trucked down. Sevenstar's original price was pretty competitive, about the same as having it delivered on the water. Then the prices started going up (this was during Covid). Trucking was a better deal so went that route in the end.

Thanks - I just submitted a quote request to Cross.

Sevenstar just got back to me with a shipping quote of $80k!

 

[lwarden]

These shipping costs have gone crazy. He paid $13K three years ago to ship a 34' Carolina Classic, which in retrospect was a steal. That's a very different boat from a 47 foot cat but still. I could see $30-35K based on his, but not $60-80K!

 

[socalrider]

These shipping costs have gone crazy. He paid $13K three years ago to ship a 34' Carolina Classic, which in retrospect was a steal. That's a very different boat from a 47 foot cat but still. I could see $30-35K based on his, but not $60-80K!

Got the quote from Cross Chartering: $68,700. Seems like $66-80k is the range; I have four quotes. I was hoping for $30k or so.

 

[lwarden]

IDK, even at $65K, if you still plan to get the boat I would still rather ship it rather than have brought west on it's own bottom.
I wonder what all the reasons are for the massive increase in shipping a boat are? Fuel costs are a bit higher now, but not hugely so. I expect the cost to go through the canal is a component, and a bit higher labor costs as well, but it doesn't add up to more than 2X the cost three years ago.

My wife was asking why we don't ship our boat east for the great loop in a couple years. For one, I'd like something bigger, but if we have to pay $40K to ship it, it's just not worth it and forces the issue.

 

[cafesport]

I think you may have discovered the downside of a 2:1 length to beam ratio. The cat premium on shipping is why so many are delivered on their own bottoms. Prepare to pay more for haulouts and dockage as well.

 

[socalrider]

I think you may have discovered the downside of a 2:1 length to beam ratio. The cat premium on shipping is why so many are delivered on their own bottoms. Prepare to pay more for haulouts and dockage as well.

That may be the case. I know a guy who just shipped a Fleming 55 from Ft Lauderdale up to Vancouver for $85k, so there might be some premium for the beam but I don't think it's anywhere near 2x.

We're on a mooring so dockage is no issue.

 

[READY]

About 20 years ago I had my Hatteras 58MY delivered from San Diego to FL. It was with a well known, respected captain. Never again. I don't have the time to go into all the details but feel free to PM me and we can get on a call.

In summary there are just to many things that can go wrong on a long delivery. Not to mention the wear and tear. In my case there was a mechanical breakdown (could have been fixed in a few days). Captain opted to leave the boat on the west coast of Mexico as he had another delivery scheduled. By contract this could be done but it was very poorly handled and left me in a very bad situation.

If things go perfectly you may save a little money. But as you know it is a boat and things never go perfectly. I would either just include the shipping cost as an acquisition cost or find a west coast boat.

One aspect to consider: How will you sleep k owing you just bought the boat and now for the next 30-60 days it is in a high risk passage? Vs. Seeing it loaded on a massive boat and secured?

Another factor would be what insurance you can get if brought around by a delivery skipper.
To me, rarely does it make economic sense to try to get most larger boats from one coast to another. I wish I had known then what I know now. As mentioned, NEVER AGAIN. If you love the boat spend the $60-$85k to ship it and get cruising!

 

[DWJensen]

I'm thinking that the 25' beam on the Leopard 47PC is going to be a killer when it comes to OTR shipping.

We're in the market for a Selene 48 or 47 and after seeing a few estimates for shipping from the PNW to SEFL we've decided to keep looking for one on the East or Gulf coasts...

 

[Mambo42]

Here is a good example of a delivery done the proper way.

 

[psneeld]

Wait for all the RADAR on at all times proponents to comment on how the boat was underway and as far as I can tell it was a one radar boat and the open array was not turning leaving port (minute 7 or so). I agree that RADAR isn't needed all the time for those that are comfortable turning it on when needed.... but already some may disagree with the premise that the delivery was done properly if not 100% to their own perceptions.

.......Not sure an 18 minute or so video really does any 900+ mile delivery justice in terms of ALL the things that went on. ....good or bad.

 

[mvweebles]

Here is a good example of a delivery done the proper way.

My sense is the delivery in the YouTube is more like an east coast US delivery with stopovers at night and you can run the boat at full cruising speed. Given the distances and availability of fuel, west coast deliveries require a significantly different delivery strategy.

Because there are so few power cars, and very few of them are on the West Coast, SoCalRider (OP) either has wait and hope for a lucky break, or bite the bullet on delivery/shipping. If he has some blocks of time in his future, hopscotch is an intriguing option but he'd still need to find a delivery captain he could trust to avoid spending time delivering vs cruising. They are out there.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I've had a lot of fun on my friends Horizon 52 PC. It's a cool boat. A bit complicated for my tastes, but almost everything is (including Weebles....different story)

Peter

 

[socalrider]

My sense is the delivery in the YouTube is more like an east coast US delivery with stopovers at night and you can run the boat at full cruising speed. Given the distances and availability of fuel, west coast deliveries require a significantly different delivery strategy.

Because there are so few power cars, and very few of them are on the West Coast, SoCalRider (OP) either has wait and hope for a lucky break, or bite the bullet on delivery/shipping. If he has some blocks of time in his future, hopscotch is an intriguing option but he'd still need to find a delivery captain he could trust to avoid spending time delivering vs cruising. They are out there.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I've had a lot of fun on my friends Horizon 52 PC. It's a cool boat. A bit complicated for my tastes, but almost everything is (including Weebles....different story)

Peter

Thanks all - this has been a great thread.

My current leaning is that if the boat is what I hope it is, to bite the bullet and pay for shipping. Had a discussion with my wife last night and for a number of family reasons I don't think the hopscotch method will work.

There's another boat (a stabilized trawler) we're looking at on the West Coast for about the same price, no shipping needed. So we are having a good discussion over the value of $65k (which is close to the value of our current boat!) We definitely prefer the PC and so will likely make an offer if it's as represented.

We'll see what today's inspection of the PC yields and take it from there. I'll either be flying to MIA to check it out or flying to SF to look at the trawler, or maybe both.

 

[Shrew]

Shipping is very expensive - $65k+. I got one quote for delivery that was half that, and another that was about the same. That's a huge spread

$30-$35K for a delivery under its own hull from Miami to San Diego?

Does that include per diem, fuel, travel expenses (Panama Canal will run a bit over $3K alone).

 

[socalrider]

$30-$35K for a delivery under its own hull from Miami to San Diego?

Does that include per diem, fuel, travel expenses (Panama Canal will run a bit over $3K alone).

I got a rough quote of $30k for a sailing cat that allegedly included all of that. Crew costs were $15k, the rest was fuel & expenses. $3k for the canal. He hasn't updated for a power cat yet - a bit more for fuel, a bit quicker trip.

It does seem a bit light for 30 days, and extremely light for longer than that.

 

[hollywood8118]

I got a rough quote of $30k for a sailing cat that allegedly included all of that. Crew costs were $15k, the rest was fuel & expenses. $3k for the canal. He hasn't updated for a power cat yet - a bit more for fuel, a bit quicker trip.

It does seem a bit light for 30 days, and extremely light for longer than that.

It sound too good to be true. That sounds like a price from 20 years ago. There are so many costs to include to a on its bottom delivery. air fares of the crew,fuel,moorage,laydays, insurance, food, parts, maintenance,crew costs, wear and tear. deep clean and detail of the boat afterwards.. it keeps going. The $ 68k shipping sounds reasonable.

Hollywood

 

[mvweebles]

SoCalRider - maybe tighten-up your request back to the delivery skippers and help them organize their bids and help you understand what you have in front of you. Might actually help them get a bit more realistic. NOTE - these are all cost-related questions, nothing about their qualifications.

• Number of Crew (not including Capt)
• How many stops?
• How many total days?
• How many engine hours?
• How many gallons diesel?
• Assumption for $/gal diesel?
• What are your planned fuel stops?
• Who does scheduled maintenance (oil change, etc)?
• What is your day rate for Captain?
• What is your day rate for Crew?
• Does this day-rate get paid entirely to Crew?
• Do you charge for prep-days?
• Do you charge for scheduled days in port?
• Do you charge for weather or mechanical delays?
• Do you charge for administrative delays (waiting for Canal transit, etc)?
• Who pays for shore-side meals and expenses?
• What weather tools do you use?
• Is there a discount for this trip?
• Who pays for non-boat related changes (crew illness, etc)?
• Who pays if there is an injury accident (crew slips/falls)?
• Who pays for travel expenses of crew/captain who leaves prior to completion of delivery?
• Under what conditions would the boat be left before completion of delivery?
• Will you need to use an agent to assist with fuel/canal transit?
• What are your assumptions for Crew/Captain Travel?
• What are your assumptions for provisioning for meals underway?

 

[Fleming]

SoCalRider - maybe tighten-up your request back to the delivery skippers and help them organize their bids and help you understand what you have in front of you. Might actually help them get a bit more realistic. NOTE - these are all cost-related questions, nothing about their qualifications.

• Number of Crew (not including Capt)
• How many stops?
• How many total days?
• How many engine hours?
• How many gallons diesel?
• Assumption for $/gal diesel?
• What are your planned fuel stops?
• Who does scheduled maintenance (oil change, etc)?
• What is your day rate for Captain?
• What is your day rate for Crew?
• Does this day-rate get paid entirely to Crew?
• Do you charge for prep-days?
• Do you charge for scheduled days in port?
• Do you charge for weather or mechanical delays?
• Do you charge for administrative delays (waiting for Canal transit, etc)?
• Who pays for shore-side meals and expenses?
• What weather tools do you use?
• Is there a discount for this trip?
• Who pays for non-boat related changes (crew illness, etc)?
• Who pays if there is an injury accident (crew slips/falls)?
• Who pays for travel expenses of crew/captain who leaves prior to completion of delivery?
• Under what conditions would the boat be left before completion of delivery?
• Will you need to use an agent to assist with fuel/canal transit?
• What are your assumptions for Crew/Captain Travel?
• What are your assumptions for provisioning for meals underway?

View attachment 146369

Lol, shouldn't actually buying/owning the boat be a prerequisite before you subject potential contractors to a list like that? He hasn't even seen the boat yet...

 

[socalrider]

Lol, shouldn't actually buying/owning the boat be a prerequisite before you subject potential contractors to a list like that? He hasn't even seen the boat yet...

LOL - yeah that's definitely "Step 2". Step 1 was indicative. If I'm not comfortable with spending $65k+ to ship the boat I'm not gonna buy the boat. I might take a second run at the delivery skippers if we get to that point.

 

[guy with a boat]

SoCalRider - maybe tighten-up your request back to the delivery skippers and help them organize their bids and help you understand what you have in front of you. Might actually help them get a bit more realistic. NOTE - these are all cost-related questions, nothing about their qualifications.

• Number of Crew (not including Capt)
• How many stops?
• How many total days?
• How many engine hours?
• How many gallons diesel?
• Assumption for $/gal diesel?
• What are your planned fuel stops?
• Who does scheduled maintenance (oil change, etc)?
• What is your day rate for Captain?
• What is your day rate for Crew?
• Does this day-rate get paid entirely to Crew?
• Do you charge for prep-days?
• Do you charge for scheduled days in port?
• Do you charge for weather or mechanical delays?
• Do you charge for administrative delays (waiting for Canal transit, etc)?
• Who pays for shore-side meals and expenses?
• What weather tools do you use?
• Is there a discount for this trip?
• Who pays for non-boat related changes (crew illness, etc)?
• Who pays if there is an injury accident (crew slips/falls)?
• Who pays for travel expenses of crew/captain who leaves prior to completion of delivery?
• Under what conditions would the boat be left before completion of delivery?
• Will you need to use an agent to assist with fuel/canal transit?
• What are your assumptions for Crew/Captain Travel?
• What are your assumptions for provisioning for meals underway?

View attachment 146369

That is a great list. I’m filing that away for future use. Leave it to a former delivery captain to understand the variables. Thanks for the info.