Crazy Texas cold snap ?

[OldDan1943]

FYI... No overhead transmission lines use insulated conductors.

They typically use ACSR

Aluminum Conductor Steel Reinforced. The cross section is a number of aluminum conductors wrapped around a steel core.

Thanks for your correction..

 

[ksanders]

Well, if the infrastructure isn't going to change, then building codes should.

Our roofs are rated for 90 pounds per square foot for snow...new construction walls are 2x6, insulated, with very carefully done vapour barrier on the inside...water lines enter the house via an interior wall and are buried 4' deep in the ground, etc.

Sufficient building codes would help a lot.

We have a small wood cook stove that burns a combination of pellets and wood that easily keeps our house warm and provides hot meals when the power goes out. The longest spell was three days after a record snowfall put many dozens of trees across the power lines.

During real bad cold snaps we keep a tap running all the time to prevent freezing, just in case.

If I lived down there, I'd be looking into cisterns...

You really need to drive through Texas to get an understanding of just how intolerant theit infrastructure is to cold weather. Just look at homes and you will see their well and well pressure tank litertally either out in the werather or a little decorative well shack.

 

[MurrayM]

You really need to drive through Texas to get an understanding of just how intolerant theit infrastructure is to cold weather. Just look at homes and you will see their well and well pressure tank litertally either out in the werather or a little decorative well shack.

It's real a head scratcher for me...much like when people complain when their house gets wiped away after they build it on an avalanche chute outwash fan, or rebuild their house after it gets flooded, repeatedly, because they built it on a flood plain.

I mean, if it freezes that often with accompanying water and power failures, why not build/plan for it?

 

[SteveK]

Well, if the infrastructure isn't going to change, then building codes should.

Our roofs are rated for 90 pounds per square foot for snow...new construction walls are 2x6, insulated, with very carefully done vapour barrier on the inside...water lines enter the house via an interior wall and are buried 4' deep in the ground, etc.

Sufficient building codes would help a lot.

We have a small wood cook stove that burns a combination of pellets and wood that easily keeps our house warm and provides hot meals when the power goes out. The longest spell was three days after a record snowfall put many dozens of trees across the power lines.

During real bad cold snaps we keep a tap running all the time to prevent freezing, just in case.

If I lived down there, I'd be looking into cisterns...

Is 2x6 outside walls still standard construction up your way? That is 25 year old tech for outside the lower mainland. 2x6 construction is now becoming standard here as heating costs go up up. R20 walls and R40 attic. Some talk about triple pain windows, you must have those as standard in new construction? Perhaps exterior walls concrete filled foam, previously used for foundations slowly creeping in up in the interior which is 2x8 thickness but way better at insulating as the stubs become the heat loss point.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

That s complete bull.

Even If Texas was part of the western, or eastern interconnect there would not have been the infrastructure in place to handle this cold weather.


This was not just power producers not being able to operate their generation in this cold weather. This was gas suppliers not being able to supply fuel so the problem is not just electricity related.

Even If Texas was connected, the fact is that there was not excess energy available on either interconnect due to the nationwide cold snap. There was nothing to sell to Texas. Even if it was available there would have had to have been bulk energy transmission facilities in place.

The entire energy delivery infrastructure IE gas, electric is just not set up for these cold temperatues, and frankly 99.999% of ther time the residents of Texas benefit from this in lower rates.

This very same non cold weather tolerant systems is demonstrated visibly throiughout Texas. Just drive through the state and look at the water wells, with outside piping to get an idea of the challenges that occur during an extended cold snap.

If ERCOT wants to have a cold weather tolerant interconnect, they can do it, but it's going to cost every rate payer in Texas, every month, forever, and the cost will not be just a few dollars a month, and it's going to take years to make the changes.

Then you have the other issues that are related to the ice. ERCOT is responsible for Generation and Transmission in Texas, but local utilities are responsible for Distributing that energy. That distribution infrastructure is what created days long outages Vs "rolling blackouts" caused by bulk energy shortages. Ice builds up, and causes lines to sag into each other or break. Trees snap and fall into lines when they are ice loaded. Lots of bad things happen during a ice storm, and dam few of them have anything to do with federal regulation.

If this were simply a shortage of energy as some incorrectly claim then folks would have experienced rolling blackouts lasting X number of hours followed by a different area or areas being in the dark.

This is from a professional power grid operator and engineer.

Good post Kevin.

I worked for BPA (Bonneville Power Administration). PNW transmission federal electrical facility.

 

[ksanders]

It's real a head scratcher for me...much like when people complain when their house gets wiped away after they build it on an avalanche chute outwash fan, or rebuild their house after it gets flooded, repeatedly, because they built it on a flood plain.

I mean, if it freezes that often with accompanying water and power failures, why not build/plan for it?

Geez, that would make too much sense for the average person.
Didn't covid teach us anything? Didn't seeing the stores empty sink in?

How many people cannot keep their house warm in a storm? How many will go hungry in 24 hours if they cannot make it to the grocery store, or the store has no food?

Two weeks into a really bad (namer your issue here) and folks will be barbecuing their neighbors to feed their kids.

 

[OldDan1943]

'barbecuing their neighbors to feed their kids'????

I am not stepping away from this conversation?

 

[Benthic2]

you can't be serious.....

That s complete bull.

Even If Texas was part of the western, or eastern interconnect there would not have been the infrastructure in place to handle this cold weather.

Only because Texas power producers have not been forced to winterize.


This was not just power producers not being able to operate their generation in this cold weather. This was gas suppliers not being able to supply fuel so the problem is not just electricity related.

The gas suppliers were not able to supply natural gas in cold weather because they were not mandated to. It was cheaper for them to not winterize so they didn't.

Even If Texas was connected, the fact is that there was not excess energy available on either interconnect due to the nationwide cold snap. There was nothing to sell to Texas. Even if it was available there would have had to have been bulk energy transmission facilities in place. But if the Texas Grid winterized it would have been better able to meet the demand.

.[/COLOR]

 

[BruceK]

'barbecuing their neighbors to feed their kids'????I am not stepping away from this conversation?

Badly written I expect. Obviously meant to write "barbecuing the kids to feed their neighbours".

 

[SteveK]

you can't be serious.....
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
That s complete bull.

Even If Texas was part of the western, or eastern interconnect there would not have been the infrastructure in place to handle this cold weather.

Only because Texas power producers have not been forced to winterize.


This was not just power producers not being able to operate their generation in this cold weather. This was gas suppliers not being able to supply fuel so the problem is not just electricity related.

The gas suppliers were not able to supply natural gas in cold weather because they were not mandated to. It was cheaper for them to not winterize so they didn't.

Even If Texas was connected, the fact is that there was not excess energy available on either interconnect due to the nationwide cold snap. There was nothing to sell to Texas. Even if it was available there would have had to have been bulk energy transmission facilities in place.
But if the Texas Grid winterized it would have been better able to meet the demand.

I cannot be the only one wondering if you are serious Ben or you are chomping for an argument?
I remember Florida had a freeze and lost an orange crop, maybe they should prepare for the next ice age.

 

[Benthic2]

Texas power has failed to suply the needs of Texans in 1989, 2003, 2011, and 2021. How many times can an "unexpected" weather event happen before it is considered expected !?!?!?

 

[MurrayM]

Is 2x6 outside walls still standard construction up your way? That is 25 year old tech for outside the lower mainland. 2x6 construction is now becoming standard here as heating costs go up up. R20 walls and R40 attic. Some talk about triple pain windows, you must have those as standard in new construction? Perhaps exterior walls concrete filled foam, previously used for foundations slowly creeping in up in the interior which is 2x8 thickness but way better at insulating as the stubs become the heat loss point.

Our house, a duplex, is on one of the first streets built here when they hacked Kitimat out of the forest in the early 1950's. When we bought it about 25 years ago our first renovation was to insulate the exterior walls, add insulation to the attic, and put in new windows.

My wife signed us up for Federal and Provincial government sponsored eco retrofit programs. They came and tested the house for air leaks, then came back after we were done to see if the improvements were enough to warrant the cash refund. It basically paid for all our attic insulation.

All there was in our 2x4 exterior walls was a thin layer of paper with an even thinner layer of aluminum foil. That's it. In winter, the downwind side of the houses single pane windows would be completely coated in ice.

It makes sense for governments to assist people in making their homes more efficient: it results in less demand on infrastructure during extreme events...probably ends up in less government money spent than on emergency measures during and after extreme events...and people have more disposable income to spend because they are saving on energy.

 

[Benthic2]

Follow the money !!!!!
Electricity providers just raised rates by 2000% because their capacity was cut in half. Do the math!!!!! This is the best thing that happened to electricity providers since the last cold weather crisis.

Cold Weather = Big Profits !!!!!

There is no incentive to winterize!!!!!!

 

[SteveK]

Murray, 50's vintage houses did not have the same concerns for heat as we do now. Maybe they were a hardier bunch.

I was asking if standard new construction is more than the 2x6 walls with R20 insulation which peaked in the 90's in the interior and up north with double windows. You mentioned snow loads, that was increased about the same time.

 

[SteveK]

Follow the money !!!!!
Electricity providers just raised rates by 2000% because their capacity was cut in half. Do the math!!!!! This is the best thing that happened to electricity providers since the last cold weather crisis.

Cold Weather = Big Profits !!!!!

There is no incentive to winterize!!!!!!

Sources please. CNN says it is 10,000%
Supply and demand is driving this.
No supply, big demand and up goes the cost to consumers.
Sources say there will be "historic investment" into building up the grid in preparation for 2035

 

[Olebird]

And now the TX Gov has asked (and received) a Major Disaster declarations which allows FEMA to issue grants and loans to repair damages, unpgrade infrastructure and pay utility bills - so much for not wanting Federal Regulation - but they will happily take my money.

 

[FF]

"Texas power has failed to suply the needs of Texans in 1989, 2003, 2011, and 2021. How many times can an "unexpected" weather event happen before it is considered expected !?!?!?"

If this is true why are so many folks not ready for the "unexpected"?

Building codes are not the answer, as the code only legalizes the lowest cost crappy construction that will stand long enough not loose value for local taxes.

In FL the best driver is the insurance co's. Build a house to help survive a breeze , storm shutters , or roof shape lowers the insurance cost a great deal.

Would seem some form of heat that does not rely on outside sources would save big frozen pipe damage , so should be an insurance discount .

Our cottage in CT uses a big minisplit for HVAC , but we have a 1930s wood/gas range , just in case the power company fails again.

At almost no cost a buildings plumbing can be winterized as a boat or RV is annually .

No gov program should be required to have 5 or 10 gal of pink antifreeze and a hand pump handy.

 

[MurrayM]

Murray, 50's vintage houses did not have the same concerns for heat as we do now. Maybe they were a hardier bunch.

I was asking if standard new construction is more than the 2x6 walls with R20 insulation which peaked in the 90's in the interior and up north with double windows. You mentioned snow loads, that was increased about the same time.

R-24 in 2x6 walls, R-50 in attic (page 9)

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/f...odes-and-standards/guides/climatezone5-7a.pdf

 

[MurrayM]

Just taking a wild stab at this, but wouldn’t insulating your house for cold snaps also keep your house cooler in summer, and save energy consumption/costs trying to cool your house? Win-win, yes?

 

[SteveK]

Just taking a wild stab at this, but wouldn’t insulating your house for cold snaps also keep your house cooler in summer, and save energy consumption/costs trying to cool your house? Win-win, yes?

Stab is on target, It works both ways. Of course if the windows are not low 'e'? then it will trap the sun heat too. Wonder what they improved on the 6 inch batt insulation to go from R20 to R24.