Boating and Cannabis

[backinblue]

I like driving right up to the front door. Go in have a look see (just kidding it's the aroma that I love), usually you get a big discount for a whole ounce (and you can mix and match) just a great day.

Go to the pot store, buy an ounce of what you want, go have lunch at a new place on the way. Great way to spend a day.

And when you get home...Yeah Baby!

OMG, an ounce of this stuff today will probably last longer than I will live! lol

But I agree, the whole "supermarket" experience is amazing.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, I still have stuff left from 3 years ago. In jars (glass) in the dark too.

But I know where it is - And the pipe is nearby.

That's the cool part of this. The stuff is so potent that I can put a bit the size of a pea in the pipe and that's all she wrote.

 

[OldDan1943]

If the USCG puts a dog on your boat the the dog alerts, say good by to your boat, at least.
In a foreign country you may say good bye to your boat your freedom for many years and perhaps your life.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Hehe, the pot is at home on dry ground, in California, not on the boat -

 

[Hippocampus]

As a physician view this differently than stated above.

There’s a difference between habituation and addiction. Virtually everyone here is habituated to caffeine. No caffeine for long enough you have withdrawal symptoms. Around two cups of coffee a day chronically is sufficient to produce habituation. It’s unlikely withdrawal will produce destruction of interpersonal relationships, unemployment, illegal activity or other major adverse effects on your life. However habituation to caffeine may produce drug seeking behavior.

ETOH can produce both habituation and addiction. It further can produce a variety of serious adverse health impacts including (but not limited to) dementia, movement disorders ( hepatolenticular degeneration, encephalopathy pugalistica etc.), cirrhosis, alcoholic cardiomyopathy and many others. Although we are overwhelmed by deaths and destroyed lives from opiates we still have a major public health issue due to alcohol. The medical societies have published a very clear guide as to what represents problem drinking. Unfortunately many functional alcoholics are in denial and think that denial is seen in many public and private discussions.

THC is neither habituating nor addictive. There is no withdrawal effects. However there are significant effects on brain function. While intoxicated any and all brain performance measures are decreased. There is evidence chronic excessive use produces brain atrophy. There is evidence chronic excessive use and even intermittent use has deleterious effects on social, interpersonal, employment and increases risk in activities of daily living such as driving, operating a boat, operating power tools etc. It is fat soluble so its prior presence can be determined weeks and even months after use with appropriate techniques. Most of brain is fat (myelin) it is still unclear to what degree and for how long the deleterious performance effects continue after exposure.

Opioids and opiates are outliers. Although they can both produce habituation and addiction the medical implications are different. An individual who is habituated but not addicted may have no adverse structural, psychological nor medical effects. An example is a person who has failed all available measures to control restless leg syndrome so after all else has failed is placed on a small dose of an opioid. For decades dose never changes and no adverse effects are seen. They would have withdrawal syndrome if the drug is stopped but are not addicted. Unfortunately we all know all too well the death and destruction addiction produces.

So going back to the OP who would I let captain a boat I’m on. I don’t care if they are addicted to nicotine or caffeine. I do care if they are on any agent that affects performance. For alcohol want no alcoholics. Want no one hung over. Want no one imbibing while the boat is moving or shortly before. Even modest ETOH ingestion adversely affects performance.

For THC want no chronic excessive users. No one with recent or current use. In short no situation hat would affect judgement or performance.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks Hippo. Since you mention opioids, I have a point to make. Opioids have caused terrible destruction and death in our society. However, at least to my knowledge, those are most often related to illegal use rather than prescription. Illegal drugs can have unknown strength and contain things like fentanyl. Because of this, rather than treating illegal opioids use like heroin or other dangerous illegal drugs, we have tainted all opioids as bad and dangerous to the point the doctors are reluctant to prescribe them and patients are ashamed to use them. I think that's an unfortunate situation because they can be very beneficial to people dealing with chronic pain or other issues. Seeing the way legal marijuana is being controlled and sold, I can see a case for making other drugs legally available as well. I never supported that opinion before, but cutting out dealers and thugs and cartels, has some merit as well as better quality control of what people are using.

 

[Hippocampus]

B some merit to you thinking without a doubt but personally think potential negative impact of legalization has more to do with societal norms than legislation. Unfortunately there’s been a downgrading of folks taking personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Folks with repetitive DUIs continuing to drive and killing others. Folks never caught driving cars or boats while intoxicated and causing injuries to others. Although I view addiction as a disease I also view immoral behavior as immoral whether legal or not.
So you have Amsterdam where public marijuana use is legal but no evident significant increase in untoward behavior . Or England with a strong public house tradition but lower DUIs and alcoholism than here.
Remember Coca Cola contained cocaine and patent medicines of the Wild West alcohol and tincture of opium . It’s what the society will accept as normative behavior that’s equally important. I don’t think drunks are funny. I don’t think stoners are making the most of their lives. I have no issue with people doing whatever they want as long as it doesn’t increase my risk of not getting though the day alive.

 

[Benthic2]

.... However, at least to my knowledge, those are most often related to illegal use rather than prescription. Illegal drugs can have unknown strength and contain things like fentanyl. Because of this, rather than treating illegal opioids use like heroin or other dangerous illegal drugs, we have tainted all opioids as bad and dangerous to the point the doctors are reluctant to prescribe them and patients are ashamed to use them. ......

I don't have the numbers handy but a very large percentage of heroin users started by following doctors orders with perscription opiods and when the doctor stopped writing scripts they sought out whatever they could find. Since it is easier to identify and control doctors than dealers, a lot of attention has been directed at them to reduce legitimate perscriptions of pharmaceutical opiods. If I can find the percentage I'll post it.

Edit:
"Of those who began abusing opioids in the 2000s, 75 percent reported that their first opioid was a prescription drug"

source: https://nida.nih.gov/publications/r...rescription-opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use

 

[backinblue]

That's somewhat the point. People who wanted to drink during prohibition found a way to do so. People who wanted to smoke pot when it was illegal found a way to buy it. People who want opioids are turning to drug dealers and end up dead from fentanyl poisoning.

I'm kind of getting to the point as Hipp said that I don't care what people do to themselves as long as they don't hurt others. Making things illegal doesn't stop self-destructive behavior, it just moves it to the black market. He also pointed out that countries that have more liberal drug and alcohol laws have less problems with abuse. The illegal activity is part of the allure. For the record, I'm not taking a stance one way or the other, but I'm beginning to understand both sides of the argument better than I have in the past.

 

[phillippeterson]

I'm beginning to understand both sides of the argument better than I have in the past.

Good on you for being willing to embrace forward thinking.

 

[OldDan1943]

BUT, it is against Federal law.

 

[backinblue]

BUT, it is against Federal law.

You are correct, BUT, any opinions I have about drug or alcohol use, do not pertain to boating. I know that's what the thread is about and maybe I drifted a bit, but I was talking about legalization and drug use in general, not specifically to boating.

 

[Hippocampus]

Even when I was still in practice you went through having to get informed consent and then have the patient sign a clearly delineated contract as to the terms of use. You are closely monitored as to your proscribing behavior. Unlike the more distant past a mill results in loss of licensure and jail time. Post #128 is not representative of current reality. As with any profession there’s slimeballs. Fortunately they can no longer write inappropriate ‘scripts any longer for quite some time. In fact it’s gone the reverse where physician and surgeons are very circumspect in prescribing. We are taught pain is the fourth vital sign and untreated pain can have an adverse effect upon recovery. This overshoot is unfortunate. Also as mentioned above and beyond pain there’s indications for chronic opioid use. I’ve yet to see abuse in that specific setting.

As regards boating I don’t want anyone impaired by any substance on my boat when it’s moving. End of discussion. I mean any level of impairment as well. No 2 beers while trolling or a hit of a dobie- not on my boat period . Once in a slip or a quite anchorage with no weather predicted moderate use isn’t unreasonable. So if you want to sit in my back cockpit and bend elbows with a good single malt I’m good with that as long as you share.

 

[GrandWood]

It's possible to grow your own, but seeds are expensive and it's not a simple process if you want to duplicate a good modern strain. You can throw some seed in the ground and grow something (I also tried this as a teen) but results will vary w/o specific equipment, lighting schedules, etc.

I have bred MJ seed for well over 20 years, regular and feminized. Growing MJ is fairly easy when someone with experience helps you out. Indoor cultivation can be rough on a noob, but just about anyone that maintains a vegetable garden can grow outdoors. It is after all a weed. We’re many fail is growing in native soil, if you don’t have rich composted soil in your garden or backyard your finished product will not be all that great.

Build an above ground pot, you will want to figure out how big a plant you want to grow, which you can do by adjusting the time of the year you plant. Do you want a 6-8 ft yielding 4-6 lbs, or a 3-4 ft yielding 1-2 lbs, planting late may to early June produces a huge plant which requires a 200 gallon above ground pot, plant mid July and you can grow in a 50 gallon pot, even smaller if you have a good understanding of nutrient requirements.

Building a pot is nothing more than using fencing in a circle, and lining it with ground cloth, breaths very well and lots of oxygen to the roots. Use the best bagged soil you can afford, I would recommend FoxFarm Ocean Forest, very good stuff, and if you have a good sized pot, you won’t need nutrients to finish out the plant.

Water 10% of pot size, twice a week at the first month, once roots are established, once a week should be sufficient depending on your climate, desert areas obviously need a bit more. You can see when water is needed as the main fan leaves will droop. Don’t baby the plants, as in over water or over fertilize. Just let um go and they will be fine.

And that’s about it

 

[psneeld]

https://www.edgewoodhealthnetwork.c...oordination and start to take foolish actions.


"In addition, alcohol has stimulating effects on the rest of the body in low doses. Heart rate and blood pressure increase, as do alertness, confidence, and energy levels. These stimulant effects, though, aren’t the same for everyone. Body chemistry, weight, age, and sex can all affect alcohol metabolism, as can the extent to which a person has built up a tolerance to alcohol.

As the blood alcohol concentration (BAC) approaches 0.05 milligrams per liter, its stimulant effects increase. However, by the time a person reaches a BAC of 0.08 mg/l (the legal level of intoxication in most regions), the depressant effects of alcohol have pushed the stimulant effects aside."

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/is-alcohol-a-stimulant-or-depressant

Alcohol is a depressant that affects the central nervous system (CNS). However, initially and in small doses, alcohol is a stimulant.

 

[mvweebles]

There's a roughly parallel thread on CF. Impairment seems to be a common topic.

Although I'm far from a teatotaler, I run a dry boat because when the boat is underway, there's work to be done. Drinking or toking-up at work just sets the wrong tone regardless of impairment potential. In my opinion, it's just not professional. My work in management consulting meant I spent a lot of time with upper management - drinking at lunch was very rare.

For me, if I'm running the boat, I expect a tone of attention and professionalism. Imbibing is counter productive.

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm the same way. When the boat is underway, no drinking and no doping. And as far as doping goes, I keep that stuff on dry ground.

When docked securely, engines off and everything stowed, yeah, cocktail hour -

 

[GrandWood]

Anything that impairs your ability to drive, operate a boat, is not a good thing. Being a heavy equipment operator, and in the construction industry for many years, I’ve had to fire individuals that would sneak off and drink, or smoke MJ on the job, even though I used MJ after work and weekends.

It’s very easy to kill someone when running heavy equipment without being impaired let alone under the influence.

There’s many videos of people operating boats under the influence, and the results are never good

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, they don't call it whisky throttle for nothing.

 

[psneeld]

There's a roughly parallel thread on CF. Impairment seems to be a common topic.

Although I'm far from a teatotaler, I run a dry boat because when the boat is underway, there's work to be done. Drinking or toking-up at work just sets the wrong tone regardless of impairment potential. In my opinion, it's just not professional. My work in management consulting meant I spent a lot of time with upper management - drinking at lunch was very rare.

For me, if I'm running the boat, I expect a tone of attention and professionalism. Imbibing is counter productive.

Peter

Depends how it's managed as is the quality of the training and experience the crew has.

Having a beer with a sandwich is hardly a big deal for those that do it often enough. At least some science believes one or two has no effect on impairment.

Professionalism? Didn't know that was a huge requirement on a 7 knot recreational cruise.

This site overcomplicates boating so bad it is becoming ridiculous in my mind. Professionalism? Many here continuously post incorrect info especially on NAVRULES. So being a 10th of a second slower because of a beer (actually not supported by science I have read), is worse than being ignorant of about 90% of real boating experience and knowledge? Professionalism on a rec boat???? Phhhtttttt.

Every skipper here is within their right to run their boat as they see fit, but stating non-facts and extremism in such a manner that all should follow it is beyond my comprehension.

 

[Benthic2]

The thing that is a concern is the difference in state and federal laws. If I legally smoked a little 2 weeks ago on dry land, and was in a boating accident today, a Coast Guard investigation would find pot in my system even though I was not under the influence during my accident.

 

[mvweebles]

Depends how it's managed as is the quality of the training and experience the crew has.

Having a beer with a sandwich is hardly a big deal for those that do it often enough.

Professionalism? Didn't know that was a huge requirement on a 7 knot recreational cruise.

This site overcomplicates boating so bad it is becoming ridiculous in my mind.

Every skipper here is within their right to run their boat as they see fit, but stating non-facts and extremism such a manner that all should follow it is beyond my comprehension.

In the eye of the beholder I suppose. When I lived in San Francisco, I probably entertained on Weebles 10 times per year, at least 10 friends, sometimes 20. There was a lot of drinking on board, and sometimes a joint was passed around (ive been subject to drug testing for over 30 years so dont partake). My friends really appreciated that I and my crew didn't imbibe while underway and maintained professional decorum. God forbid if I ever forgot the pre-departure safety speech.

I don't care if it's 3 knots or 30 knots, I believe there is a professional way to run a vehicle - boat included. Drinking is not congruent while working regardless of whether or not it results in impairment. It's a hard line for me that feels a bit dangerous to cross. Guests can do whatever they want as long as they throw-up over the leeward rail.

I'm not saying anyone else should do what I do, just relating what my philosophy is.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I guess I just feel a bit more relaxed running my boat for fun a little different than I would a "professional" delivery or similar.

Doesn't mean it is one bit less safe.

 

[GrandWood]

The thing that is a concern is the difference in state and federal laws. If I legally smoked a little 2 weeks ago on dry land, and was in a boating accident today, a Coast Guard investigation would find pot in my system even though I was not under the influence during my accident.

Most likely not, I was subject to random tests for many years, in the military and in the construction industry, I’ve toked on a Sunday night, tested on Monday am, and passed. It’s when you are a chronic toker that it builds up in your system, daily toker types. Smoking a bit on weekends will not result in a positive test in my experience.

 

[psneeld]

Military drug test results....



Cut-Off Levels Of Drug Test


https://www.passusa.com/drug-testin...nd protection system to give accurate results.

Cut-off levels of drug test is the minimum concentration or levels of drugs, which need to be present in the sample, before the military lab reports a military drug test outcome as positive. If the presence of drug level is equal to the confirmatory level or below that, the outcome of the test is negative.

In case of a marijuana drug test, the cut-off levels are 50 NG/ML (nano grams/milliliter), while confirmation level is 15NG/ML. For cocaine drug test, it is 2000 NG/ML and 4000 NG/ML. For opiates such as Morphine, the cut-off level includes 2000 NG/ML and confirmation level is 4000 NG/M

https://cleanandhealthyme.org/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-below-50-ngml.html

How Long Does It Take to Get below 50 ng/mL?
Scientists have established that smoking 27 mg of THC in weed produced THC-COOH in the urine sample at 180 ng/ml around four hours later. Also, it was found that the THC half-life varies from 1.4 days to 4 days for occasional smokers. For frequent smokers, it may increase up to 7 days.

This means that it will take near 3 days for 27 mg to go below the 50 ng/ml threshold. This is because, after one and a half days, it will become 180/2 = 90 ng/ml. In another one and half days, it will become 90/2 or 45 ng/ml

 

[mvweebles]

Doesn't mean it is one bit less safe.

I have no judgement on your approach PSneeld. You have a ton of experience and far be it for anyone to second guess you.

All I can say is my concern is NOT impairment, the dominant under current of threads like these. I think you are saying roughly the same thing. We just arrive at a different conclusion.

My background is long deliveries that are short-handed. When people are off-watch, they still have a job to do: get some rest so the watch behind them have confidence they can rest. Old habits die hard.

Most of the folks I know are a ton of fun and relatively active social drinkers, myself inckuded. I worry about slippery slope - from time to time the "stars align" into an evening that is remembered for years (about my 40th birthday party.....). Just don't want a seed crystal to form. Keeping it at zero works for me and my boat. I don't fault others, just have strong feelings about what works for me

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

I look forward to that too.

Right now I'm still focused on learning how the boat handles navigating Delta waters with tidal flows, snags, shoals and other river conditions. Railroad ties floating down the river.

Joined up with the San Joaquin Delta Power Squadron to get some more training and "words of wisdom" on the Delta rivers.

Gonna be a few more years before I crack open a beer underway -

 

[backinblue]

I have bred MJ seed for well over 20 years, regular and feminized. Growing MJ is fairly easy when someone with experience helps you out. Indoor cultivation can be rough on a noob, but just about anyone that maintains a vegetable garden can grow outdoors. It is after all a weed. We’re many fail is growing in native soil, if you don’t have rich composted soil in your garden or backyard your finished product will not be all that great.

Build an above ground pot, you will want to figure out how big a plant you want to grow, which you can do by adjusting the time of the year you plant. Do you want a 6-8 ft yielding 4-6 lbs, or a 3-4 ft yielding 1-2 lbs, planting late may to early June produces a huge plant which requires a 200 gallon above ground pot, plant mid July and you can grow in a 50 gallon pot, even smaller if you have a good understanding of nutrient requirements.

Building a pot is nothing more than using fencing in a circle, and lining it with ground cloth, breaths very well and lots of oxygen to the roots. Use the best bagged soil you can afford, I would recommend FoxFarm Ocean Forest, very good stuff, and if you have a good sized pot, you won’t need nutrients to finish out the plant.

Water 10% of pot size, twice a week at the first month, once roots are established, once a week should be sufficient depending on your climate, desert areas obviously need a bit more. You can see when water is needed as the main fan leaves will droop. Don’t baby the plants, as in over water or over fertilize. Just let um go and they will be fine.

And that’s about it

I don't disagree but for the casual user, why bother. I can spend $50 at a local dispensary w/o any of the work, and be good for months. I don't need or want pounds of pot. Besides, in my state, I think it's illegal to grow outside, I assume because it's then not controlled and subject to poaching by minors.

 

[OldDan1943]

I dont know if banking rules and laws have changed but for years, even the legal seller, could not legally deposit the profits in a FDIC bank.

 

[OldDan1943]

If you want a long term history of drug use, the hair is a good source of information, so I am told.