Dedicated autopilot control or operate with MFD?

Space at each of our helm stations is limited and as I plan our upcoming electronics upgrade it occurred to me that the autopilot does not need its own dedicated control. We are looking at Garmin systems and their autopilot can be controlled directly through their multifunction displays with all of the same functionality as through their dedicated autopilot controls. Guessing most of the manufacturers do that these days.



My plan is to use 7" MFDs and not do a lot of split screen stuff, but without the dedicated controls for our old Simrad AP16, I could fit 9" or even 12" MFDs at each helm. So do you guys with modern MFD based systems still have dedicated autopilot controls? Anyone control their autopilot exclusively through the MFD?

I went with a dedicated AP control on my new Simrad system now 3 years ago. I wouldn't do it again. It's slightly convenient but given space considerations, not worth it. AP controls on the MFD are fine.

I'd go with the largest MFD you can fit. 7" is pretty much worthless except for a repeater or dedicated depth or something.

Good luck - will be interested to see your final configuration

Peter

I do not have 100% AP utility through my MFD. My MFD can not duplicate the speed for which I can spin the knob on my AP controller to miss a last second spotting of a log or crab pot. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your analysis. I am just raising some potential issues for your consideration.

I agree with weebles, 7” is not much screen. I use a 7” screen on my dingy and love it but 9” gets very busy on my main ride.

My preference is for dedicated controls. My main reason is I almost always steer by autopilot once out of the marina. I put it in "Auto" and steer by the big knob. And as tiltrider says faster reaction time to logs or crab pots.

I understand you space limitations. A bigger MFD is important. Maybe a remote for the AP? Tucked out of the way when not in use.

I have Raymarine MFDs and AP. I have 2 MFDs and the dedicated AP remote control, I can also have carry around the boat.

My advice: Regardless which brand you have, keep it all in the family. Ray marine/Raymarine, Garmin/Garmin.

This way it is easier to troubleshoot.

I use my SIMRAD MFD's to control my autopilot at both stations. I do have a dedicated control for the AP at my lower station but I never use it. My MFD's have buttons, a knob and touch screen, I would not like it nearly as well if it was touch screen only. My stuff is old, first gen NSS but I like it a lot and I am running the AP at least 90% of the time.

Consider an AP remote control device with the AP unit mounted where you have space (or maybe Garmin offers an AP remote that just couples to the MFD). Many manufacturers offer APs with wired or wireless remote controls and should duplicate the quick access functionality of the AP unit itself.

We also do all steering outside marina with the knob on our AP - so we would not wish to remove that functionality.

It's definitely a quandary; replies thus far span the whole spectrum. Since I went to reading glasses, I find that it doesn't matter how large the details are because I still need cheaters to see them. To that end, all of my sunglasses have embedded readers and reading glasses are everywhere. That helped convince me that 7" or 9" MFDs would be okay. I also expect to have my tablet running Navionics as a secondary display.

I too steer by the autopilot control. One of my AP16 head units died and I replaced with with an AP24 that has the jog dial. Definitely handy. The old Simrad autopilot integrates with the new Garmin system, but not the Garmin autopilot controls. Eliminating the autopilot control would mean replacing the old Simrad AP with new Garmin AP. Only the hydraulic motor can stay. Sounds like I'm talking myself into keeping the old Simrad AP16, doesn't it?

tiltrider1 said:

I do not have 100% AP utility through my MFD. My MFD can not duplicate the speed for which I can spin the knob on my AP controller to miss a last second spotting of a log or crab pot.

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My Simrad MFDs have a knob that spins at roughly the same pace as the AP44 controller so no difference for me. It also has a follow-up setting which makes it similar to a jog lever (though a distance second).

The only issue I've had with using MFD for AP is the knob also toggles between functions on the screen, meaning it can be used to select the main body of the MFD (radar, chartplotter, etc); or the various functions on the AP sub-screen (course, or Auto-standby-Nav). I have wanted to make a course change and inadvertantly put the AP info Standby mode. It's a bit hard to explain, but suffice to say it's much easier to do on MFD than on the dedicated AP controller

Still, I have similar space issues as OP. I'd forego the dedicated AP control. I'm surprised to say it but the MFD controls are certainly good enough for me. I really thought the MFD controls would be a compromise. Only slightly.

Peter

HeadedToTexas said:

It's definitely a quandary; replies thus far span the whole spectrum. Since I went to reading glasses, I find that it doesn't matter how large the details are because I still need cheaters to see them. To that end, all of my sunglasses have embedded readers and reading glasses are everywhere. That helped convince me that 7" or 9" MFDs would be okay. I also expect to have my tablet running Navionics as a secondary display.

I too steer by the autopilot control. One of my AP16 head units died and I replaced with with an AP24 that has the jog dial. Definitely handy. The old Simrad autopilot integrates with the new Garmin system, but not the Garmin autopilot controls. Eliminating the autopilot control would mean replacing the old Simrad AP with new Garmin AP. Only the hydraulic motor can stay. Sounds like I'm talking myself into keeping the old Simrad AP16, doesn't it?

Click to expand...

In my opinion, smaller MFDs just don't show the same detail. You'd think it's all there, just smaller. That does not seem to be the case. Or maybe it's there and you just can't see it (I've long since gone to readers too). Bottom line, I think there's a quality issue between smaller and larger MFDs, not just quantity of space.

Peter

I have mounted the Simrad FU 80 follow-up (AP-60) in the armrest so does not take up space on the dashboard.
It is also our only steering unit on the steering position, works great!

Pascal.

I too like a dedicated control. If sudden steering is required, I don’t want to be messing around changing modes and poking at menus to get my AP controls on the screen. I also want my AP to remain functional if my MFD goes tits up.

What I don’t care for are the large AP controls that are sometimes all you can get. I know that Simrad and Furuno make small and large versions of their controls, and I have always preferred the more compact versions. Console space is always at a premium. I really like my AP70/AC80, but the displays really are annoyingly large with no alternative.

I have found that the separate AP control on our Garmin system allows a rudder angle readout graph on the same display. Very handy, and it saves screen space on the MFD.

Most AP course adjustments are performed with a battery powered remote which has worked well over the past four years.

That's the reason I chose the AP-60, it's the same software as the AP-70 only in a smaller case.However, it is no longer available.

Greeting,

twistedtree said:

I too like a dedicated control. If sudden steering is required, I don’t want to be messing around changing modes and poking at menus to get my AP controls on the screen. I also want my AP to remain functional if my MFD goes tits up.

What I don’t care for are the large AP controls that are sometimes all you can get. I know that Simrad and Furuno make small and large versions of their controls, and I have always preferred the more compact versions. Console space is always at a premium. I really like my AP70/AC80, but the displays really are annoyingly large with no alternative.

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Pascal.

Not only would I have the separate control for the autopilot, but it wouldn't share an electrical circuit with anything else. I can live (temporarily) without my MFDs, but it's time drop the hook if the autopilot isn't working. In a pinch, I can navigate on a tablet or smartphone, but neither can steer the boat

Ted.

We have a separate stand-alone AP control head... and I find it useful to twiddle the knob for small course changes... and it's especially fast to press "Standby" and start hand-steering -- something we appreciate when surprised by a field of crab pots. Or a stray...

Also... our two MFDs are both different brands than the legacy Raymarine AP in our mutt-n-jeff system. Near as I can tell, each will send track/route info to the AP and the AP will respond... and we actually have the Furuno MFD hooked up to do that.

OTOH, I'm not seeing any actual AP controls within the MFD except for use with a Furuno NAVpilot AP. Assuming maybe most MFD-AP linkups might be proprietary, that at least is another reason we're finding the stand-alone controller useful.

Another reason is that I can only tolerate so many splits on a larger screen. On our 12" Garmin, two radar displays (different scale) work OK. One our 16" Furuno, two chart displays (different scale) work OK. Splitting more than that seems like at least some of the resulting panels would be too small to suit me.

-Chris

mvweebles said:

In my opinion, smaller MFDs just don't show the same detail. You'd think it's all there, just smaller. That does not seem to be the case. Or maybe it's there and you just can't see it (I've long since gone to readers too). Bottom line, I think there's a quality issue between smaller and larger MFDs, not just quantity of space.

Peter

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Interesting. There is definitely less detail at lower magnifications, so a given zoom level on a 7" produces a smaller image than it does at the same zoom level on a 12" MFD. But do you mean that the same zoom level produces less detail on the smaller display than a larger display even though it's the same zoom level?

ranger58sb said:

I'm not seeing any actual AP controls within the MFD except for use with a Furuno NAVpilot AP. Assuming maybe most MFD-AP linkups might be proprietary, that at least is another reason we're finding the stand-alone controller useful.

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I believe the only way to get the MFD to control the AP is to use the same brand and generation equipment. A Garmin MFD will not "control" a Simrad AP. I doubt that a modern Simrad MFD would "control" an old AP16.

That said, you can definitely put heading and waypoint data out from the chartplotter across a NMEA network and get the autopilot to steer the boat from waypoint to waypoint. That's not "control," but rather integration. And you can definitely do that with mixed brands and even mixed generations to a point. My AP16 speaks both NMEA183 and NMEA2000, but can only integrate with modern MFDs on the newer network. Older autopilots that predate NMEA2000 can't integrate because they lack the network protocol.

HeadedToTexas said:

Interesting. There is definitely less detail at lower magnifications, so a given zoom level on a 7" produces a smaller image than it does at the same zoom level on a 12" MFD. But do you mean that the same zoom level produces less detail on the smaller display than a larger display even though it's the same zoom level?

Click to expand...

I agree that it shouldn't make a difference in the level of detail - not like there are layers and 7" has fewer layers than 9" (etc.). But I really do think detail gets lost - mostly important on radar. Targets seem to come and go more on my 9" than 12". Same antenna, same system.

As far as the original question, all I can tell you is that if I bought my boat as it sits except it didn't have an AP44 controller, I would say to myself "gee, I will install one at both helms....". But after a few thousand miles of use, I can tell you it would fall off my project list, or at the very least get de-prioritized into oblivion. After a while, it just becomes second nature to use the MFD for all sorts of stuff.

That said, Ted/OC Diver made a good point about having an isolated control, especially since he's a single hander.

As far as rapid evasive maneuvers, you can't beat a jog lever for speed.

But if the choice is a small MFD and a separate control vs a large MFD and no separate control, hands down I'd go with the larger MFD. You'll get the benefit of it 100% of the time.

Peter

mvweebles said:

As far as rapid evasive maneuvers, you can't beat a jog lever for speed.

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Roger that.

As far as rapid maneuvers, why not use the wheel? What am I missing?

I don't have a jog lever so the wheel is what I use. But a jog lever will go hard over in a second or two.

Honestly, if you're so late in making an evasive maneuver, chances are you're screwed anyway - stern will be pushed into whatever you're trying to avoid.

All I can tell you is I spent the money and limited real estate to have two AP44s installed. Given my small space, I wouldn't do it again. MFD controls are fine and doesn't take long to get used to them, which surprised me. I find myself using AP controls on MFD more often than the AP44. If I had a lot of space for instruments, I'd install the AP44s - they are not very expensive. But like you, I don't have much helm space.

Peter

HeadedToTexas said:

I believe the only way to get the MFD to control the AP is to use the same brand and generation equipment. A Garmin MFD will not "control" a Simrad AP. I doubt that a modern Simrad MFD would "control" an old AP16.

That said, you can definitely put heading and waypoint data out from the chartplotter across a NMEA network and get the autopilot to steer the boat from waypoint to waypoint. That's not "control," but rather integration. And you can definitely do that with mixed brands and even mixed generations to a point. My AP16 speaks both NMEA183 and NMEA2000, but can only integrate with modern MFDs on the newer network. Older autopilots that predate NMEA2000 can't integrate because they lack the network protocol.

Click to expand...

Yep, that whole proprietary match-up thing is my assumption, too.

We do use our Furuno MFD to instruct our Raymarine AP... using NMEA0183... because our SmartPilot S2G predates NMEA2000 (and SeaTalkng).

-Chris

Another vote for dedicated AP controls. If you opt for the MFD approach consider adding the Simrad self-steer override that will disengage the AP when you need to take the wheel in a hurry

HeadedToTexas said:

Roger that.

As far as rapid maneuvers, why not use the wheel? What am I missing?

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If you need to rapidly turn the rudder, either a jog lever or the port and starboard push buttons on the display are faster than cranking the helm wheel (at least for me). The second equally important reason is that it allows you to swing the rudder with one hand while allowing you to shift the transmission with the other hand.

Ted

100% of my manual steering is done with the autopilot remote follow up lever. If the rest was done through a mfd I wouldn’t have a issue as long as I still had the capacity to switch to the remote quickly and easily.

My Garmin drives my Simrad AP just fine. It won't do a whole route, just the "go to" function. Which is what I typically use. For a complex route I wouldn't be taking a "set it and forget it" approach anyway.

Oh, and I vote for a dedicated AP control, too. I use that just about all the time inshore and near shore. I only use the MFD control for long, offshore legs. A remote is surprisingly handy, too.

For many functions, such as dodging and a slight course alteration, the use of a control head is much simpler than through MFD. I wouldn't be without mine, but if my use were primarily well off shore where course corrections are very infrequent, I might feel differently.

The other comment I will make is that IME / IMO, the "keep it in one family" rule will often result in inferior functionality as compared to mating the best with the best, particularly when it comes to VHF and AP. My buddy had a great AP, but wanted to upgrade his MFD, and went with Garmin for that. The salesman convinced him to switch to a Garmin AP as well -- he didn't argue that the Garmin equipment couldn't integrate with Simrad, but instead pointed out that Garmin was the biggest in recreational aircraft MFDs and APs. He was particularly proud that the Garmin AP would work in reverse. That sold my buddy, but he very quickly regretted that decision as the Garmin misbehaved all too frequently (something he never experienced with Simrad).

Now I am trying to envision a scenario one might need autopilot in reverse, interesting.

Coastal find I switch back and forth between the various AP modes. If you’re only doing long hops probably not an issue. Also find unlike the sailboat I hand steer with the AP not the wheel much more. Find a rudder angle indicator very helpful docking even with wheel hand steering. I have a separate AP controller at both stations and a remote. I never use the remote. Whole system is simrad except the AP drive which is Raymarine (not the computer). Hasn’t caused an issue.
Happy camper. I commonly split my screens. Usually AIS/radar on one side and chart on the other. Putting AP controls on the screen takes up space. Think that’s a major drawback. So another vote for a separate unit.

The one feature of my AP I love and hate at the same time is my wireless remote. I love it because I can be anywhere in the pilot house and control the AP. I hate it because Raymarine has not updated it in more than 20 years. It still uses SeaTalk, sometimes loses connection, sometimes can’t make a connection, need to remove batteries to reset it to correct those conditions, and is not reliable enough to do away with a dedicated controller. I also have the Raymarine jog lever which is relatively new, but requires a light touch to steer with. Control of the AP with a Raymarine MFD, especially using a touch screen, is a PITA, with a small screen (7in). Go with a dedicated controller of some kind, mounted where you can reach it easily from where you spend most of the time at the helm.

Tom