Faster trawler than just hull speed but seaworthiness?

[jbinbi]

So I am going to move from sail to power. This is for coastal cruising. I have no need/desire to do 30kts, but I don't want to limit myself to displacement speeds only. If I want to do 15-20kts, I want to be able to do that.

When I go sailing in 15-20kts of wind with 2-4' seas, the powerboaters at the dock look at me like I am insane! I am hoping that I could find a non displacement boat that could handle this ok, like if I wanted to go from Montauk to Atlantic City on the direct diagonal. I am not looking to cross the oceans.

Saw a Krogen Express at the show which would be the perfect boat except it is 50' and $2M. Nord, Krogen etc are out since they don't meet the speed, so conventional trawlers are out.

Looking for something that is between say 35-40', can do a min of 15kts, but can handle something other than just calm waters (my buddy with a searay sundancer 32 will only go from newport to block island if there is nothing more than a chop, not real seas). So searays and those types are out.

Could someone list some brands? Have been thinking lots about FP 37 powercat. Someone on cruisersforum went from 44' sailing cat to this, ran it on 1 engine for economy at 6kts, but also would run at 17kts when needed. But he sold it after 2 years and is no longer on the forums to ask why.

 

[mvweebles]

I am pretty sure the most common style of recreational boat going though the Panama Canal is not a sailboat, not a trawler, and not a trawler style. I'd put money that the most common is a sport fisher. Designed to take a beating.

Just saying.

Peter.

 

[rslifkin]

A lot of powerboaters are wimpy about weather even if their boat can take it.

Our boat is not a trawler, but we pretty much treat it as one. Most travel is done at 6.5-7 kts (a good slow cruise for this boat), but we have the option to fast cruise at 17 kts. It's not the best riding hull in some sea states (and some can be improved with a change of speed), but unlike many planing hulls, it's got plenty of rudder authority, handles well at low speeds, and it loves following seas. The boat will happily handle conditions worse than we're willing to be out in. Depending on wind direction and sea state, 15-20 kts of wind isn't necessarily a problem in my mind.

As mentioned about sport fishes, there are definitely planing hulls out there that can take a beating.

 

[scott_free]

Sportfish would be a great answer as they are fast and designed to take some seas. Viking, Ocean, Hatteras, Bertram, Albemarle, etc. But are you going to be ok with 0.5 nmpg at 25 kts? When we run 27 kts (our cruise) we get 0.6 nmpg. We do alot of chugging when we need range and at 9 kts we get right at 2.0 nmpg but the ride at hull speed is crap unless it's calm as the boat is designed to get lots of stability from hydrodynamic forces which only occur at speed. A sea keeper would help drastically especially at hull speed but we couldn't justify the $60k cost.

Scott

 

[Jeff F]

Back Cove and Sabre come to mind.

 

[Nick14]

A variety of semi-displacement production boats have been available for many years to do exactly what you describe, except their speeds are generally closer to mid-teens than 20 knots.

Look at American Tug and Nordic Tug. Most of those can reach WOT speeds of 16-18 knots, if you’re willing to pay for the fuel.

Otherwise a class of narrow beam, long hull ‘super displacement’ hulls could also achieve those speeds, but other than Greenline I’m not aware of any production boats like that (the sacrifice in interior cabin space would turn away most buyers).

The Range Boat concept is this type, 46 ft. long.

In most cases if you’re looking to exceed 20 knots in that size range it would be a conventional full planing hull, with associated reductions in ability to handle rough sea conditions.

They’re out there. American Tug 34 and 39, Nordic Tug 37 and 42.

 

[jbinbi]

Sportfish would be a great answer as they are fast and designed to take some seas. Viking, Ocean, Hatteras, Bertram, Albemarle, etc. But are you going to be ok with 0.5 nmpg at 25 kts?

Scott

Those models not in my price range. Don't want to go 25. Ok at hull speed for lots of time w good mpg, just don't want to be limited by it and be able to go say 2x as fast (15 kts is good. Don't need more than 20). If I just want to go hull speed, I can keep my sailboat and just motor.

 

[jbinbi]

A variety of semi-displacement production boats have been available for many years to do exactly what you describe, except their speeds are generally closer to mid-teens than 20 knots.

Look at American Tug and Nordic Tug. Most of those can reach WOT speeds of 16-18 knots, if you’re willing to pay for the fuel.

Otherwise a class of narrow beam, long hull ‘super displacement’ hulls could also achieve those speeds, but other than Greenline I’m not aware of any production boats like that (the sacrifice in interior cabin space would turn away most buyers).

The Range Boat concept is this type, 46 ft. long.

In most cases if you’re looking to exceed 20 knots in that size range it would be a conventional full planing hull, with associated reductions in ability to handle rough sea conditions.

They’re out there. American Tug 34 and 39, Nordic Tug 37 and 42.

AT and NT I have seen. Looking at Beneteua Swift, but it seems like they have de emphasized these for their antares etc. lines to compete with Searay. Need 15kts, don't need higher than 20.

 

[sjisailor]

Aspen C100, C120 or one of their other power cats would be worth looking at. If I recall they are showing a couple at the Annapolis show this weekend.

In the more rolly monohull world, SD trawlers like Nordic Tug and American Tug can get up to that speed with a large enough engine. Not pleasant for long or frequent usage, however, more for outrunning storms, emergencies, etc.

 

[Nick14]

AT and NT I have seen. Looking at Beneteua Swift, but it seems like they have de emphasized these for their antares etc. lines to compete with Searay. Need 15kts, don't need higher than 20.

There’s a whole world of ‘Downeast’ usually Maine-built ‘lobster boats’ that are generally semi-displacement designs. IMHO they’re also among the most beautiful boats ever. All have full keels, of either built-down or skeg designs, and either soft or hard chine.

There are many legendary builders. Wilbur, Duffy, Ellis, Stanley, Wesmac, Northern Bay, Holland, and others. With the right power they can see 20 knots (or even more), though most are powered to achieve speeds in the teens.

They’re legendary for their seaworthiness. Those hulls are the ones Maine fishermen rely on to get out, and back home with a full load, in any weather.

Pleasure boat versions are out there, but not in large quantities. A new build would be jaw-droppingly expensive ($2 million for a Wilbur 38 built to a yacht finish), but used boats are out there for a fraction of that.

The Beneteau Swift Trawler, Back Cove, and Sabre have the ‘look’ of a more commercial boat or trawler, but a more or less conventional full planing hull. You can see speeds of 30 knots, with a commensurate trade off in sea keeping abilities.

Everyone wants it all. For enough money you could probably get it. Semi-displacement hull design, trying to get better sea keeping abilities than a planing hull but more speed than a full displacement hull, is hard to do well. IMO the boats mentioned do it fairly well at speeds in the teens, albeit with a massive increase in fuel burn the faster you go. If 20 knots was a requirement I think it would be tough to do well in a SD hull, that’s planing hull territory.

Every boat is a compromise. It’s up to you, and your wallet, what balance works for you.

 

[OldDan1943]

A36 with a Seakeeper but you lose storage space.
Maybe an AT40 something with a Seakeeper.
I have aways leaned to hyd thrusters but on smaller boats, finding space and hyd.
Flopper stopper, just not my ‘cup of tea’.

 

[rslifkin]

For the ATs and NTs, that high teens speed is often a brief sprint at WOT. Some of them will make 14-15 on a continuous basis, but not all of them will.

On my boat, our 17 kt fast cruise is sustainable as long as there's fuel in the tanks. Max continuous on the engines gives a bit over 18 kts. WOT is good for about 25 kts, but you can't do that for long, nor is the hull shape really good for that speed with good ride or handling. Biggest downside is that we've got gas engines, so fuel economy isn't great. About 1.2 - 1.3 nmpg at slow cruise, a bit over 0.5 nmpg at fast cruise. Diesels in a similar hull would burn around 40 percent less at fast cruise, 50-60 percent less at slow cruise.

 

[PierreR]

Some of the older affordable Grand Banks should fit the bill.

Why would a former blow boater want to go 15-20 knots and shock themselves with the fuel bill. I have a full displacement power boat that is way more comfortable than any blow boat it had, faster yet slow enough to enjoy the journey.

 

[LN-RTP]

A36 with a Seakeeper but you lose storage space.
Maybe an AT40 something with a Seakeeper.
I have aways leaned to hyd thrusters but on smaller boats, finding space and hyd.
Flopper stopper, just not my ‘cup of tea’.

AT: American Tug?
Which one had the horrible story after a buyer bought a used one with 25 hours on it and got leaks and delaminating with the factory doing nothing to help out?
Was that a Ranger Tug, or some other brand?
(3-4 years ago maybe?)
I am also contemplating a “new boat”, but not sure which brand or model yet.
A slow trawler could work but I want single engine with a bow thruster, perhaps even a stern thruster.
A faster boat boat would be ideal for quick trips to the Bahamas when the conditions are good, and a slow trip when they are not good..
Still early in planning stages, but thinking 35’ to 45’ ?
Budget $200k, but could go higher if I fell in love..

 

[mvweebles]

Pretty common story - sailor seeking power, wants to be able to go fast when desired. A large percentage of those on TF are past sailors so you're in good company.

The reason powerboaters stay in when the weather is lousy is because they can. There are many other options for going out. Sailing is notorious for either too much or too little wind.

I may have missed it, but what is your budget? As a guy with a true displacement boat, you're in luck you want to go faster as the vast majority of travelers and Motoryachts are designed to do +15-kts as long as the credit card holds out. A Grand Banks 36 (or 42) is a decent sea boat albeit a bit wet.

If you plan to do extended coastal cruising, I'd recommend looking at stabilized boats. Makes a world of difference. Limits your search but in the end worth it. I know of no one who owns a stabilized boat who would own a non-stabilized one.

Best success on your search. There are some very helpful folks on TF.

Peter

 

[jbinbi]

Some of the older affordable Grand Banks should fit the bill.

Why would a former blow boater want to go 15-20 knots and shock themselves with the fuel bill. I have a full displacement power boat that is way more comfortable than any blow boat it had, faster yet slow enough to enjoy the journey.

Simple. If I want to just to 6-8 kts, might as well just keep my sailboat. It does that under sail or motor. I currently have a 34' sailboat w yanmar 29, uses about .5gph at 6kts, so 12 mpg. I can sail it or motor it or motor sail it.

When I want to go 40 mi, that means leaving at 8 and arriving at 4. Arrive at 4 at many places, you are fighting for the last mooring. arrive at 2, plenty left. So If I could do 12 kts for 2 hours, it becomes a 5 hr , not an 8 hr journey if I want. If you see or have to go via bad weather, you can cut the time in half. So if I am going to give up the sails, I want to gain something else, which is time.

 

[jbinbi]

There’s a whole world of ‘Downeast’ usually Maine-built ‘lobster boats’ that are generally semi-displacement designs. IMHO they’re also among the most beautiful boats ever. All have full keels, of either built-down or skeg designs, and either soft or hard chine.

There are many legendary builders. Wilbur, Duffy, Ellis, Stanley, Wesmac, Northern Bay, Holland, and others. With the right power they can see 20 knots (or even more), though most are powered to achieve speeds in the teens.

They’re legendary for their seaworthiness. Those hulls are the ones Maine fishermen rely on to get out, and back home with a full load, in any weather.


The Beneteau Swift Trawler, Back Cove, and Sabre have the ‘look’ of a more commercial boat or trawler, but a more or less conventional full planing hull. You can see speeds of 30 knots, with a commensurate trade off in sea keeping abilities.

Thank you. I do know about Sabre and Grand Banks, but did not know about the others in your second paragraph. Kind of funny, I stand on the dock w powerboater friends and they can tick off each and every type of powerboat w price and comments just by looking at them. I know none. OTH, I can do the same w sailboats. See that 83 Erickson 35, at one point in time everyone drooled over it. They look at me like I am crazy (more of them than me) ;-)

Appreciate your inputs.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. jb. Keep looking at powercats. There are a couple of cat owners on TF who would be MUCH better equipped to advise you of their characteristics than I am.


We went from a full displacement 46' Cheoy Lee trawler to a 27' World Cat/Glacier Bay last year due to changing boating style. I have too few hours on board to offer much advice.



Sister ship to our Toonie:

 

[OldDan1943]

Powercats of any size, finding a slip wide enough. There are a few PDQs trawlers out there.

 

[LN-RTP]

We went from a full displacement 46' Cheoy Lee trawler to a 27' World Cat/Glacier Bay last year due to changing boating style. I have too few hours on board to offer much advice.

Small world, I had one of those as well, a 2016 World Cat 2770, Glacier Bay addition.
Sold it 18 months after purchase and got more than I paid for it brand new.
Shoot me a message if you want to talk 2770.

 

[BruceK]

Let me throw the Australian built Riviera into the mix. They plane, are used offshore,and operate very nicely at hull speed too. The Riv 37(44 LOA) would be my pick. Usually come with Cummins 330s or 370s (though some had Volvos). Build quality is good, long established successful builder. Tight ER though. They do sell into USA so there should be some around, I saw lots in Seattle. There are/were some reviews online, esp one in Hawaii.
Here`s one(planing pic from a different advert):
https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/riviera-37-flybridge/300790

 

[darkside]

How about a 40' displacement cat?
Cruise 18kn
Burn 2.5l/nm
Two king beds, two showers, two heads
Fits in a monohull berth, 4.5m wide.

 

[markpierce]

Faster than hull speed? Then it is not a recreational trawler. Maybe a fast recreational cruiser.

 

[Flatswing]

Some of the older affordable Grand Banks should fit the bill.

With GB classics, best to go with the 42. Even the newer, (1’ wider) 36’s have no room outboard of the engines and especially if powered to get mid teens speed. The fuel burn while planing is hair raising compared to <hull speed.

 

[ranger58sb]

When I go sailing in 15-20kts of wind with 2-4' seas, the powerboaters at the dock look at me like I am insane! I am hoping that I could find a non displacement boat that could handle this ok, like if I wanted to go from Montauk to Atlantic City on the direct diagonal. I am not looking to cross the oceans.

Looking for something that is between say 35-40', can do a min of 15kts, but can handle something other than just calm waters (my buddy with a searay sundancer 32 will only go from newport to block island if there is nothing more than a chop, not real seas). So searays and those types are out.

Almost any sportfish, convertible, or sedan bridge boat could be a candidate. (We're partial to bridge boats with stairs -- not ladders -- to the bridge.)

Your powerboat buddies are wimps. The boats can take more than your buddies can. And there's big difference between a small-ish Sea Ray Sundancer (for example) and a large-ish Sea Ray bridge boat.

We ARE subject to sea states, but it's not exactly a matter of just wave height; more of a combination of wave height, period, and direction... relative to the speed we want to make for any given trip. So sometimes 8.5 kts is nifty, sometimes we have to get up on plane to get through seas more comfortably.

There can of course be a difference (as you know) between "bay chop" and ocean waves. 4' seas here the the Chesapeake is pretty rough, whereas 4' seas off Cape May or wherever might be nice and balmy.

I'd suggest you try to pinpoint boats that otherwise meet your purpose -- features, layout, etc. -- and then ask again. The Powerboat Guide might be helpful.

-Chris

 

[PierreR]

Simple. If I want to just to 6-8 kts, might as well just keep my sailboat. It does that under sail or motor. I currently have a 34' sailboat w yanmar 29, uses about .5gph at 6kts, so 12 mpg. I can sail it or motor it or motor sail it.

When I want to go 40 mi, that means leaving at 8 and arriving at 4. Arrive at 4 at many places, you are fighting for the last mooring. arrive at 2, plenty left. So If I could do 12 kts for 2 hours, it becomes a 5 hr , not an 8 hr journey if I want. If you see or have to go via bad weather, you can cut the time in half. So if I am going to give up the sails, I want to gain something else, which is time.

Ahh, using sailboater math. You leave early, see 7+ knots often, the power boaters go by you at 10:00 AM waking you sending stuff flying. You do 40 miles berth to berth in 8 hours, get there and fight for a slip, you're whipped and want to go to bed after sunset and the power boaters are partying. Ahh yes, sailboating is so relaxing with just the wind and the sea. Classic sailboater math.

Classic trawler math begins at the same time in the morning but getting away from the dock is faster as there is less to do. Once clear of the harbor the trawler sets the course at 8 knots, puts the boat on autopilot and has breakfast in the flying bridge. Boat is not heeled so it like being at home. You get to the harbor entrance in under 5 hours and are berthed within 15 minutes. Plug the power in, connect the hose and talk to your neighbors by 2 pm. Half of the sailboaters won't talk to you because you must have been one of the SOB's that waked them but good on the way to port, then took the good spots and will keep them awake when they want to go to sleep.

I saw many days in the 50-60 mile range. I even did Cape May NJ to Sandy hook NJ just before sun up to just before sunset near the end of May (124 miles) All at 8 knos or less.

On my boat. 7.3 knots= 3 gph. 8.5knots= 6.5 gph and 9.3 knots=13 gph

I was pleasantly surprised to learn what a difference there is in dispatch between sailboater math and powerboater math. Do you really need 12-15 knots to make the math work?

Former sailboater here just being devils advocate. A big boat is a big purchase. You want to be as sure as you can. There is definitely a boat out there for you but most people go through a couple of boats before they settle on what they really wanted.

Lots of good advice here in this thread by others.

 

[sunchaser]

Let me throw the Australian built Riviera into the mix. They plane, are used offshore,and operate very nicely at hull speed too. The Riv 37(44 LOA) would be my pick. Usually come with Cummins 330s or 370s (though some had Volvos). Build quality is good, long established successful builder. Tight ER though. They do sell into USA so there should be some around, I saw lots in Seattle. There are/were some reviews online, esp one in Hawaii.
Here`s one(planing pic from a different advert):
https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/riviera-37-flybridge/300790

Right you are Bruce. My first onboard experience with Riviera was 25 years ago in Perth. Along with the Riviera is the great Aussie built boat Maritimo. Both are proven offshore in challenging conditions.

 

[Shrew]

When I go sailing in 15-20kts of wind with 2-4' seas, the powerboaters at the dock look at me like I am insane! (my buddy with a searay sundancer 32 will only go from newport to block island if there is nothing more than a chop, not real seas).

These are not yardsticks by which to be measuring.

We had a 28 ft express for many years. We'd regularly go out in 2-4 and 3-5 foot seas running at 23 kts with no issues. We've been out in 6 plus feet.

15kts of wind is every day in Block Island and Rhode Island Sound. As are 2-4 foot seas. A number of years ago, a couple of older guys at the dock who fancied themselves salty fisherman claimed they wouldn't go out if the forecast called for 4 feet. My wife with a few beers in her at the time snorted and blurted out "So....what.....you never go out then??"

If you're really concerned, look at a sportfish with diesels. As long as you spool up the diesels to 90-95% power about 10 min every hour, you should be able to run those at displacement speeds. But they will also allow you to get up on top of snotty seas and run at 18-23kts if you want.

 

[rslifkin]

I agree with Pierre. Being able to run at even 7 kts steadily, in the direction you want without your speed varying or needing to tack is typically faster than sailing. When we've cruised with sailors, on an optimal day, they can match or beat our travel time. But on many days, even if we're doing 6.5 kts, we get there first.

Last trip we did traveling with a friend on a 30 foot sailboat, he was within 30 minutes of our travel time on one 40nm leg (took us about 6 hours). The run was along a shoreline with a good offshore breeze (~15 kts), so pretty much flat sea state and a nice beam reach for the sailor the whole way. Next leg of the trip was in less ideal conditions with a kinda sloppy, slightly confused sea state, lighter wind, and we were running more or less upwind. Neither of us thought it was a particularly comfortable ride (although it wasn't awful and we would have found it comfortable going the opposite direction). This run was only about 15nm and our sailing friend took a 2 hour head start. We still passed him on the way and arrived 30 minutes before he did, as we were able to run in a straight line and still average about the same speed we did on the first run, while he was both going slower and tacking (so more distance to cover at a lower speed).

In general, the more time we spend traveling, the less often we find ourselves wanting to run faster than slow cruise. Going faster gets us somewhere sooner, but for a significant fuel burn penalty, and the time underway isn't nearly as relaxing (fast cruise is much louder, motion is sharper, so harder to move around and do anything vs just sitting). Every once in a while it's worth pushing the go fast levers forward, but not often enough that I'd really care if we didn't have the option.

 

[Nick14]

Thank you. I do know about Sabre and Grand Banks, but did not know about the others in your second paragraph. Kind of funny, I stand on the dock w powerboater friends and they can tick off each and every type of powerboat w price and comments just by looking at them. I know none. OTH, I can do the same w sailboats. See that 83 Erickson 35, at one point in time everyone drooled over it. They look at me like I am crazy (more of them than me) ;-)

Appreciate your inputs.

I’ve had similar interests to yours, and also have wanted the ability to reasonably achieve speeds in the teens when needed but without the sacrifice in seakeeping abilities of most full planing hulls. As @hippocampus described well, there are many times when being able to go 15 knots vs. half of that is very helpful.

Like most things in life it boils down to money. Your budget. You might want to peruse yachtworld, check the categories for ‘Downeast’ and ‘lobster boat’ and see what shows up in your price range (or do an internet search for ‘Maine built boats’).