Captains License

wow...for anyone thinking of going through the process....as a former instructor and small vessel pro captain for a couple decades......I suggest viewing most of this thread with a grain of salt.

Way too much bad info to take seriously. Sure there is good info...but double check everything.

Go with a setup like Sea School or a Maritime Academy and carefully read their literature.

When I was an instructor...I was amazed at how little the students retained just a few years out of the course...both subject matter and license/ vessel requirements.

psneeld said:

wow...for anyone thinking of going through the process....as a former instructor and small vessel pro captain for a couple decades......I suggest viewing most of this thread with a grain of salt.

Way too much bad info to take seriously. Sure there is good info...but double check everything.

Go with a setup like Sea School or a Maritime Academy and carefully read their literature.

When I was an instructor...I was amazed at how little the students retained just a few years out of the course...both subject matter and license/ vessel requirements.

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Many threads on TF have incorrect info and advice I would not follow. It's up to the person reading the thread to determine what is fact and what is BS.

There is a lot of good information available on TF but the reader has to find them.

I did Sea School 7 years ago in Charleston and it was a great course with an excellent instructor. I was told however that had I had the "other" instructor it would have been a very different experience.

I Liked it so much, I decided to add the three days to get my Masters lic.
it was 10 days at 10 ? hours a day.

syjos said:

Many threads on TF have incorrect info and advice I would not follow. It's up to the person reading the thread to determine what is fact and what is BS.

There is a lot of good information available on TF but the reader has to find them.

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It helps to warn them....the classic not knowing enough to even realize what they don't know.

Many threads go along and aren't too bad..this all of a sudden seem to be overwhelmingly off the mark to me, so I spoke up....as I always have.

So why not suggest going to good sources of exactly what it takes or what is required than listening to some not so exact memories?

psneeld said:

It helps to warn them....the classic not knowing enough to even realize what they don't know.

Many threads go along and aren't too bad..this all of a sudden seem to be overwhelmingly off the mark to me, so I spoke up....as I always have.

So why not suggest going to good sources of exactly what it takes or what is required than listening to some not so exact memories?

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Very true. Same reason people ask questions on TF that the answer is easily available from Google.

USCG regulations for licenses have changed dramatically since I earned mine. Being able to attend a school solely for getting a license and being able to take the test at the school seems simpler than in the past. When did USCG start allowing tests at schools?

I did get a pretty good education at the Maritime Academy. It was similar to a community college where the students could choose classes in a variety of subjects in addition to the core requirements. They had classes available on subjects like diesel engine troubleshooting and repair, corrosion, refrigeration, hydraulics etc. Some classes were a few hours and others two weeks or more.

LI cant say for sure, but I took my course and test with Sea School in 1999. I believe they had the setup for a few years at least.

Goldcar said:

one thing my insurance agent mentioned was if you get into a pickle with that captain's license the insurance companies are much more harsh on how you dealt was the challenge. Denying claims, saying you should have known better! Something to consider? Maybe take the class and don't take the test. Knowledge is power

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So, one clown mentions and it's posted as fact. I've heard it said by those who don't have licenses as an excuse and justification. I don't know of any circumstance where responsibility for damages was held against the more qualified. Now the licensed captain is subject to CG oversight of their license but that's entirely separate from insurance claims.

Claims don't get denied because you should have known better. I'd recommend a new insurance agent if thats the kind of information they're giving you.

psneeld said:

wow...for anyone thinking of going through the process....as a former instructor and small vessel pro captain for a couple decades......I suggest viewing most of this thread with a grain of salt.

Way too much bad info to take seriously. Sure there is good info...but double check everything.

Go with a setup like Sea School or a Maritime Academy and carefully read their literature.

When I was an instructor...I was amazed at how little the students retained just a few years out of the course...both subject matter and license/ vessel requirements.

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Wifey B: We took our first courses late 2012 and got our licenses shortly after. First were low tonnage and inland and they then worked up. We've taken many courses since then. We've really come to value the school we go to and the personal interaction. Every course I've taken has taught me something new. I hope never to use some of the knowledge (Med Person in Charge, Adv firefighting, rescue) but I'm sure glad to have it. We also got hands on training. We just figured if we were going to spend 8 months a year on the water and cruise 15-20,000 nm a year (less last year and this), we wanted to be as knowledgeable as possible. We still realize we don't compare to two captains we employ with 40 years experience. Still we're very grateful for the professional teachers who have instructed us.

Our training has included an emergency room, a fire fighting facility, a simulator and more, but best of all great instructors. Oh, and I think the tests and exams have all been easy. Maybe the instruction was good. We were also in our first course with people who had been running boats for years and with people who had done online courses. Some sure thought they knew a lot, but alarmed us. Oh and we do hire captains and engineers and we care about their initial and continued education.

I would do the 100 Ton Master course at MPT. I would also do the Towing Assist endorsement for the heck of it.

Fly into Ft. Lauderdale. Rent a bunk room from Neptune Group in one of their crew houses (very nice) for about $30 a night as long as you have a MMD.

Everything is walking distance ... school, food, beer, etc... so no car is needed unless your going to do a Lifeboatman’s course and have to drive to Tampa to launch a davit lifeboat on the Victory Ship.

You might as well do a BST course too and become a real commercial mariner... you never know what doors can open up with good licensing.

MPT has been my go to school for years... I wouldn’t go anywhere else.

MPT also has Career Assistants too... call them and tell them what you want to do, and they will tell you what you need to do. Most courses run concurrent, so you can bang out a bunch of courses in one trip.

The 6-Pack or Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV) is issued by the US Coast guard and is required for operating 6-Pack charter in US waters. Its requirements are 360 documented "sea days" and the passing of a written exam. When I took the 100-200 ton master's program I believe a "sea day" was defined as 4hrs. continuously underway. Cruise for 2hrs. for lunch then cruise for 2hrs more counts for zero as does staring at 10PM and finishing at 2AM then except for certain types of commercial operations.

ProMaritime said:

The 6-Pack or Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV) is issued by the US Coast guard and is required for operating 6-Pack charter in US waters. Its requirements are 360 documented "sea days" and the passing of a written exam. When I took the 100-200 ton master's program I believe a "sea day" was defined as 4hrs. continuously underway. Cruise for 2hrs. for lunch then cruise for 2hrs more counts for zero as does staring at 10PM and finishing at 2AM then except for certain types of commercial operations.

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No.

What counts as a “day”?
• A “day,” as defined by the regulations, is 8 hours of watch-standing or day-working, not to include overtime.
• Only on vessels of less than 100 gross registered tons (GRT): Credit for a full day will only be given for service of 4 hours or more (See 46 CFR 10.107, definition of “Day”). No credit will ever be given for days in which less than 4 hours were served.
• For the purposes of defining sea service requirements, the Coast Guard considers 1 month as 30 days, and 1 year as 12 months (or 360 days).

There is no provision that the service must be continuous. It is 4 hours underway during a day. As to 10:00 PM-2:00 AM that would also count as four hours and a sea day on under 100 tons. A day doesn't have to all be done on a calendar day. That would be saying on a larger boat a 8:00 PM to 4:00 AM shift wouldn't count.

Mariners learning system. Online/plus books and access to phone help if needed. Up to a year to complete the self paced course. They Procter the exams regionally Both my wifE and I have our 50 ton masters with sailing endorsement. About 690 per person. Would recommend if self study works for you. It didn’t work as well for my wife, but I was able to assist her with what she didn’t understand (mostly navigation, which I’ve been doing for years and years. )

Good luck btw I wouldn’t bother with just a six pack, not with the time.

BandB took exception to my response probably because I left out the word "anchor." What I meant to say was:

Cruise for 2hrs. then "anchor" for lunch then, cruise for 2hrs more counts for zero as does staring at 10PM and finishing at 2AM except for certain types of commercial operations.

ProMaritime said:

BandB took exception to my response probably because I left out the word "anchor." What I meant to say was:

Cruise for 2hrs. then "anchor" for lunch then, cruise for 2hrs more counts for zero as does staring at 10PM and finishing at 2AM except for certain types of commercial operations.

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I'm sorry, you're just wrong. Anchor had nothing to do with it. The four hours do not have to be continuous. Do you see continuous anywhere in the regulations? And it does not have to be on the same day. I don't know who gave you that information, but it's just false. Plenty of shifts start in one day and conclude the next.

There are schools that provide the course and in-house exam. I did the Master license class in 2017 with Boatwise Marine Training (NH / Boston area) in 2017. Four weeks of all day Saturday and Sunday and two evenings per week. At the end of the class, they do the test (takes one day). You send all the paperwork into USCG and they issue a license based on your actual boating experience (which you document yourself; if it's on your own vessel, you must provide proof of ownership for the period claimed). I would have received a 25 Ton license, but one day on a 50' Hatteras qualified me for 50 Ton. I think current rules require more than one day at the higher level.

foreverunderway said:

I've held a Master's 200 ton and several unlimited all oceans tickets for over 4 decades and neither I nor my employers has gotten one damn thing off insurance because of it.

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I bought a GB42 in 1986 and got my Unlimited Tonnage Master ticket in 1988. The insurance premium went down several hundred dollars thereafter.

Warning! Thread drift into insurance.

rgano said:

I bought a GB42 in 1986 and got my Unlimited Tonnage Master ticket in 1988. The insurance premium went down several hundred dollars thereafter.

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foreverunderway said:

I've held a Master's 200 ton and several unlimited all oceans tickets for over 4 decades and neither I nor my employers has gotten one damn thing off insurance because of it.

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Getting insurance issued for an older boat is all over the map. In 2015 I purchased a 1971 40' Tolly. I had to shop hard to find insurance because I had not owned a boat since the early 80s. I was told by the agent at the time the only reason I could get insurance for that old girl was my license, 500 ton, and 41 yrs working under that license. Fast forward to last year when I got rid of the Tolly and purchased a 1983 Californian. Again shopping insurance on an older boat was a challenge but not as difficult because I had had insurance on the Tolly with no claims. That agent said it was a combination of ownership experience and professional license + experience that helped me get a favorable rate.

I don't think the savings is huge and I don't recommend pursuing a license just to save on insurance. I do however feel it is worth the effort for the knowledge and training acquired.

Both of my last two boat's insurance insurance were discounted for levels of "eduation/experience".


At some point discounts do top out....so adding more experience, education, etc doesn't change your premium.


Like may last insurance company rated the boat less than a gasser but gave not further discount for having a auto/installed fire extiguishing system.


It too could be based on the vessel size and complexity.


As far as commericial vessels, an agent might have a better answer, but as long as you meet the manning requirement, my guess it is a flat price no matter what qualified captain runs it.


As an assistance tower...the only guy with higher licenses got fired for his inability to run a small boat so his higher license but lack of seamanship on a smaller vessel was a liability.

I received a discount for having a CG license from Boat US. The savings would probably be the same if I had a CG Auxiliary boating course. Maybe?

But getting a license for insurance savings is counterproductive. Not enough of a saving to make up for school, license and the TWIC card plus renewals.

I let my license expire after retiring a few years ago.

psneeld said:

Both of my last two boat's insurance insurance were discounted for levels of "eduation/experience".


At some point discounts do top out....so adding more experience, education, etc doesn't change your premium.


Like may last insurance company rated the boat less than a gasser but gave not further discount for having a auto/installed fire extiguishing system.


It too could be based on the vessel size and complexity.


As far as commericial vessels, an agent might have a better answer, but as long as you meet the manning requirement, my guess it is a flat price no matter what qualified captain runs it.


As an assistance tower...the only guy with higher licenses got fired for his inability to run a small boat so his higher license but lack of seamanship on a smaller vessel was a liability.

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Personal experience is we're graded based on qualified captains aboard at all times of operation. No extra credit for unlimited captain running 44' boat. You meet the full standard and that's it.

Now, our close friend has a 52' Riva which we maintain for her. She was not a licensed captain but had completed the coursework, just lacked seatime. Then she had a captain sign off on her capability and she got a discount. She has every thing but the sea time. She asked if her rates would change when she gets her license and was told no, that she was already getting that rate.

As to operating a different size or type boat, there are many unlimited captains, running 150'+ yachts who haven't run anything under 100' in years, sometimes decades. They don't ever even run the tenders. We pulled up to a dock one day in two jet ribs and a very experienced, very skilled captain was amazed at how we were handling them as he'd always heard jets were very difficult to handle. My wife asked him if he wanted to take it for a spin and he said "h...no, how fast does that thing go anyway." When she told him 40 knots, he tried to think of the last time he'd run over 20 knots and it had been decades. Outside of his job, he does not boat.

I think all need to recognize that their experience is helpful but may not be all they need for other purposes. Commercial vs. Recreational, small vs. large, slow vs. fast, inland vs. coastal vs ocean, even East Coast vs. West. When we came from the lake to the coast we approached it as if we had no boating experience. Now on some things our experience did help but we saw that as a bonus, not as a qualification. Docking was probably the single area in which we required very little additional training but that's a small part of captaining.

You asked where I learned that 4hrs. underway meant 4 continuous hours. I learned it at the Maritime License Center in Honolulu but that was almost 15 years ago. Maybe they changed the reg.

You also argued with my statement regarding sea time credit for voyages that lap over into the next calendar day. You stated: "Plenty of shifts start in one day and conclude the next." Yes they do. That's why I mentioned that there are exceptions for COMMERCIAL operations, meaning for paid crew.

ProMaritime said:

You asked where I learned that 4hrs. underway meant 4 continuous hours. I learned it at the Maritime License Center in Honolulu but that was almost 15 years ago. Maybe they changed the reg.

You also argued with my statement regarding sea time credit for voyages that lap over into the next calendar day. You stated: "Plenty of shifts start in one day and conclude the next." Yes they do. That's why I mentioned that there are exceptions for COMMERCIAL operations, meaning for paid crew.

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Those same carryovers work for recreational users. I can't speak for anything you were told in Honolulu 15 years ago, but I can speak for the actual regulation and it says nothing about continuous. And there is nothing about it having to be on one day. Please, don't add to the regulations with rules that don't exist.

We record time regularly where we dock during the course of the day's cruise for fuel and continue and we've recorded plenty of overnight shifts.

Yes, you have to have it documented by a Captain that your working under on, in my case his vessel. Make sure that it is being documented as you go along. Years of sea time means nothing if it isn’t documented and turned in to to USCG. In a timely manner. There rules not mine. Go for the full deal. At a USCG SCHOOL. I took the five tests.
Here‘s a good point. On one test I missed by one question. I was asked if I wanted to retake the test now. I said I was surprised I missed 4 . Then I said I even saw an answer that I got wrong that was the correct answer,
(I quote) Oh that question you did get right but the test you took has a wrong answer marked as correct. The USCG needs to amend that one. I retook the test and passed. Practice online, but go to school.
Tons more you will learn.
I signed on to company with 28 captains 80 mates. I learned from mates with a lot of experience and they learned from me. 650 to 1200 passengers a day. 8am til 3 am . With liquor ! ( fights, attempted suicide, heart attacks, ). Your by yourself Captain , if your lines are not thrown to the dock.
Best to you all.

Having taught Marine Licensing in Hawaii a number of years ago, and holding a Master Unlimited License Upon Oceans, let me throw my two cents worth in. The USCG consider a day starts at 0001 and ending at 2400 hrs. They do expect your time to be between those hours to count for a day. Your time doesn't need to be continues during the one day, another words if you work on a vessel that runs for two hours, then anchors for lunch for an hour, and then you runs another two hours to get home, you have one countable day as long as it was all on the same day between the hours 0001 and 2400 hrs.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is that if you are working on a vessel and your normal work hours are 12 hrs a day they will give you a 1.5 days credit. This goes on in the oil industry in the Gulf on Mexico all the time. I have never seen anyone try it on their own boat, but think the USCG might deny the 1.5 days if you try it.

Also don't ever show more than 14 hours worked in any day as that is a red flag for the USCG. You must have at least 10 hrs a day of rest, in any 24 hours period, one no shorter then 6 hrs and one no shorter than 4 hrs, if itt is split.

The last boat that we owned we got very good insurance rates because of my license ass well as my wife had command of a NOAA ship when she worked. Your license should help you get a better insurance rate.

I have never verified this but, once I was told accumulated sea time counts double if in foreign waters.

Not that I have ever seen. Most of my professional career was sailing in foreign waters and the USCG never gave me double time for my sea time. I also worked many days more than 14 hours, although I was never allowed to put in for the OT, because of the rest and work rules.

OldDan1943 said:

I have never verified this but, once I was told accumulated sea time counts double if in foreign waters.

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Not true

Yep...I can see that time in foreign waters counts double...I wonder what combat duty gets you?

Sailor of Fortune said:

Not true

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I stand corrected.
Thank you for the correction.

psneeld said:

Yep...I can see that time in foreign waters counts double...I wonder what combat duty gets you?

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A hearty handshake and 4 hrs extra duty unless you were injured and then, a Purple Heart, a hearty handshake and 2 hrs extra duty, after you recover.