Rudder pos.+autopilot+power steering?

At this point I would put all focus on getting the rudder mechanism freed up. You can try great and moving it back and forth, but I expect that to really fix it you will need to haul, disassemble, and pull the rudder post. It would appear to be a steel tube with the shaft inside, and supported in some unknown way. Between years of rust and years of grease, and perhaps rusted up bearings, you will probably find your problem.

Marine Hydraulic Engineerin

Home Page

We manufacture Hydro-Slave systems for trap and pot hauling applications. These consist of trap lifters, hanging blocks, motors, hoses, oil tanks, pumps and ...yes Steering systems.


I have dealt with the above folks and can assure you they will come up with more than one solution.

A constantly on Auto Pilot electric hyd pump might work , as would an engine driven pump.

We use the engine driven pump, not that expensive as its similar to a PS pump in a car. A fluid tank is also required.

The advantage to us is I much prefer to anchor than suffer a marina and the hyd pump allows the conversion of an electric windlass to hyd.No white smoke on a long hard pull.

It also reduces the load on the AP output as only valves that require 1/2 an amp are needed to operate.

There are many solutions , starting perhaps with a different rudder steering setup.

Ask the folks that can UPS the solution.

And since Maineacks are frugal , it might not be a white boat big $$ horror show .

FF said:

And since Maineacks are frugal , it might not be a white boat big $$ horror show .

Click to expand...

Interestingly, I have looked their web site already. When time comes, I will certainly give them a call. Thanks.

twistedtree said:

At this point I would put all focus on getting the rudder mechanism freed up. Between years of rust and years of grease, and perhaps rusted up bearings, you will probably find your problem.

Click to expand...

I think we have an agreement on the solution. I do need to haul her out and take apart the rudder structure. That is the only way to know for sure, what the issue is?
I wish there was a write up on this, or a video somewhere. I'd like to do it myself, but I have never tried anything like this. Where to start, what tools to have, what is the starting point? Maybe it is not a big deal, with the right preparation, but the unknown is always worry-some.
My haul out is scheduled for December.

"I think my main problem is that I cannot move the rudder by hand."

Start by loosening the rudder packing , if its too tight it could be the problem.

If it needs repacking use a modern packing , like Duramax , that does not drip, even modestly tight.

FF said:

Start by loosening the rudder packing , if its too tight it could be the problem.

If it needs repacking use a modern packing , like Duramax , that does not drip, even modestly tight.

Click to expand...

What is packing? The top assembly where the rudder is connected inside to the tiller?

DDW said:

From your haulout photo, it looks like the rudder has a heel bearing, so it isn't going to fall out of the boat. .

Click to expand...

What is heel bearing?

What is packing?

Unless the rudder is cased in a housing that goes way above the WL, packing , similar to what is on a propulsion shaft is required to keep water out of the boat.

Rudders have a number of styles , caps with lock rings to bolts pulling on a flange.

Have someone take a look at your system to tell you what in installed , and how to free it.

Looking at he pictures it doesn't appear that there is a packing gland. They just ran the rudder tube to above the waterline. A lot easier if you have the room and no packing to worry about.
A heel bearing is the bottom bearing that the rudder sits on, usually it's part of the skeg. It bears most or all of the weight of the rudder and in my experience usually poorly designed.

Let me also share an experience in case this helps. I have a 1987 Bruce Roberts Steel Trawler. The steering became very hard. It has an 8 turn lock to lock and I find that quite reasonable, although my wheel is about half the size of yours. The difficulty was with the bearings and the rudder tube. I have a two inch stainless rudder shaft and three cutlass bearings, one lower in the skeg and two in the upper rudder tube. The rudder tube is standard steel. While I could move the rudder with the steering, it was harder than it should be. I disconnected the hydraulic pistons and could barely move the rudder by hand. The cutlass bearings were being compressed onto the rudder shaft by rust between the rudder tube and the bearing. This happened on all three bearings. The short term solution was to ream out the cutlass bearings to get a better fit, and install a grease fitting to keep water out of the Rudder tube. The long term solution was to remove the bearings, clean out the rudder tube, coat it with Coal Tar and re-assemble. The same problem was found on my propeller shaft. Under normal situations, with running, the cutlass bearings would wear appropriately, but after leaving her out of the water for a season, the fit became too tight and I had to remove the shaft, bearings, clean and seal the stern tube and reassemble. So, all this is just to say you should check the play in your rudder bearings to make sure there is no binding, and if it is bound, what the possible cause might be. Good luck!

Never understood why people used cutless bearings as rudder bearings, it's not what they're designed for.

"Never understood why people used cutless bearings as rudder bearings, it's not what they're designed for."


1. They work.

2. There cheap.

3. They come in many sizes.

4. They can be sourced locally , easily.

5. They do not require lubrication like metal.

6. They are easy to replace .


Bestitis is a disease , not an engineering standard.

RoyKok said:

Let me also share an experience in case this helps. Good luck!

Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing. I think I have similar issues, what you had. I agree, the only solution is to remove all the bearings and see what shape they are in?
If you have time, could you advice me on the steps I need to take for this job? I have never done it, but it would be nice to do it myself. My haulout is scheduled for December.
Do I need any special tools? Can I remove it myself, or do I need additional manpower?
Do you have any pictures of your project?
Thanks.

update

Let me revive this thread again. Since my last posting, I have hauled out the boat and did bottom paint. I have not touched the rudder, because at my second test I could manually move the rudder, while the cylinders were disconnected. So, my suspicion was incorrect. The bearings should be fine for now.
At this point, I am interested in installing a power steering pump. This could help me with the stiff steering. Some of these pumps come with autopilot pump included. I do want an autopilot, but not soon. To have an assisting pump however, could greatly improve my maneuvering capabilities. I am single handed, so easy steering is a must.
Could you guys recommend pumps? Do I need a professional for the installation, or can I do it myself? If I need a Pro, can someone recommend a shop in Port Orchard/Bremerton, WA area? Thanks.

Find a shop in your area that handles Heavy Duty marine Power steering commercial marine power steering-the type that uses an engine driven hydraulic pump.


You need a Marine Hydraulic Power Steering Light Duty belt driven PS pump with tank & tightener bracket.
You also need one of their Helm Units-sized to give you 3-4 turns lock to lock.
The above two items will convert your existing manual hydraulic to power steering using existing rams & hoses.
A Rudder Angle meter can be added separately ,but the power steering is so fast & easy,I doubt you will need a meter.


An autopilot electric solenoid valve can be plumbed into this system (usually near the helm) at a later date. This is a simple matter of adding 2 tees with shut off valves at a convenient location.


Contact Marine Power with all your existing ram & helm specs & they will assign a pump & helm combo to give you 3-4 easy turns on any steering wheel 12" & up.



Note-you should install tiller arm rudder stops if you go with power steering.These systms can develop enough power to break something at the ram area if inadvertantly held hard over.


I don't know of any other suppliers than Marine Power that supply these simple engine driven power steering systems commonly used on thousands of Me. & East CDN fishing boats,but there may be. The pumps are usually constant flow Vickers VTM42 type & the helms are CharLynn/Eaton Orbitrol.


OOPS> I googled marine power steering & found these folks using same components. There are probably more.



https://www.rosesmarine.com/products_steering.html






/ Len

deblen said:

You need a Marine Hydraulic Power Steering Light Duty belt driven PS pump with tank & tightener bracket.
/ Len

Click to expand...

Len.

Thank you for the detailed suggestions. I will follow up on this and find a shop for solutions.
Can you take at the attached photos and see, if my existing pump and hydraulic tank is outdated and needs replacement? Is this what you were referring to?

The tank is on the SB side and the pump is on the P side of the main engine. As far I can tell, the pump is driven by belts from the main engine.

Your stiff manual steering should be rectified before you over power it with "power steering". A PTO setup may not e required.

For an AP setup - with steering fixed, a good ram and stout lines should work just fine utilizing a 12 or 24 volt pump. Tens of Thousands in use on boats your size. Lots of AccuSteer (110volt?) units on larger yachts

Furuno has a great online walk through on how to size, setup and install. Simrad much the same info.

LeoKa said:

Len.

Thank you for the detailed suggestions. I will follow up on this and find a shop for solutions.
Can you take at the attached photos and see, if my existing pump and hydraulic tank is outdated and needs replacement? Is this what you were referring to?

The tank is on the SB side and the pump is on the P side of the main engine. As far I can tell, the pump is driven by belts from the main engine.

Click to expand...

Now you have me totally confused.
In your first post #1,& in other early posts,you state that you have manual hydraulic steering.You show pics of a double Teleflex ram system & a Kobelt manual hydraulic helm with big steering wheel-7.5 turns lock to lock.
This all made sense.


Now you show a pic of what appears to be a belt driven Vickers VTM 42 type pump,with attached autopilot electric solenoid valve & hydraulic reservoir tank. This pump,tank & solenoid assembly tells me that your boat is ready to connect an autopilot.
Do you have a Jog Steering switch? Is anything connected to the 4 wires coming out of the solenoid valve in above pic?


Len

Here is some more info on solenoid valves,jog switches,etc.


Note: Most recreational a/p mfgrs only show their pilots driving an expensive off the shelf electric over hydraulic pumpset,electric hydraulic ram, electric linear actuator or electric rotary actuator. These work fine for non- commercial use. Commercial vessels went with engine driven pumps & solenoid valves many years ago. / Len



http://www.comnavmarine.com/manuals...eering_Controls_Installation_Instructions.pdf

I too am really confused.

Are all the powered hydraulics just sitting unused and waiting for something? And if so, what?

If your steering remains stiff with the rudder disconnected, then why not track down and fix that problem?

Or do you think the stiffness is completely normal operation, but just not the way you would like it?

Has anyone else confirmed that the steering is abnormal?

"Rudder - won't turn by hand, after disconnecting the cylinders"

Sounds like the first thing to look at.

See if the packing is too tight?

FF said:

"Rudder - won't turn by hand, after disconnecting the cylinders"
Sounds like the first thing to look at.
See if the packing is too tight?

Click to expand...

I was wrong about that. It does turn by hand. I just did not realize that the rudder is huge and it moves slowly by hand.

This weekend, I will test the steering wheel, after disconnecting the cylinders.

deblen said:

Now you have me totally confused.
In your first post #1,& in other early posts,you state that you have manual hydraulic steering.You show pics of a double Teleflex ram system & a Kobelt manual hydraulic helm with big steering wheel-7.5 turns lock to lock.
This all made sense.


Now you show a pic of what appears to be a belt driven Vickers VTM 42 type pump,with attached autopilot electric solenoid valve & hydraulic reservoir tank. This pump,tank & solenoid assembly tells me that your boat is ready to connect an autopilot.
Do you have a Jog Steering switch? Is anything connected to the 4 wires coming out of the solenoid valve in above pic?


Len

Click to expand...

Honestly, I am also confused now. Until you pointed out that I need a belt driven pump and expansion tank, I did not even think about this. Till now, I thought, I just had a manual hydraulic steering, without any pump.
So, I apologize. Unfortunately, there is not much documentation on this boat. I am learning about her, as I go. I am also new to pleasure boating and I am not a mechanic.
I will dig in more and see, if there is anything more about the existing hydraulic system? I know the boat has hydraulic steering, bow thruster, transmission, windlass. Perhaps, all these require a stronger pump? Perhaps an overhaul is due on the hydraulic system? I don't know.
My main concern as of now, the steering. I do need easier steering, because as a single guy, it is very important to steer fast and easy at docking. I just had a very iffy situation at the dock, last weekend. I don't want that happen again. I need to be able to move the wheel easy anytime.
If you think I have everything I need for better steering, I do need to figure out, how to troubleshoot the stiffness of the steering wheel. I have never dealt with hydraulic systems, so this is why I am here, to learn from you guys. Any info is extremely useful to me. So, I appreciate your help very much.

deblen said:

Here is some more info on solenoid valves,jog switches,etc.
View attachment 86579

Click to expand...

Where do you see the solenoid on my photos? I don't even know how it looks like.
I don't have jog switches. If I do, I have no idea where should it be?

twistedtree said:

I too am really confused.
Are all the powered hydraulics just sitting unused and waiting for something? And if so, what?
If your steering remains stiff with the rudder disconnected, then why not track down and fix that problem?
Or do you think the stiffness is completely normal operation, but just not the way you would like it?
Has anyone else confirmed that the steering is abnormal?

Click to expand...

The PO did not really go out. They lived aboard for 10 years. The engine was rebuilt in 1986 and only has 750 hours on it.
I suspect that there was an autopilot connected to the hydraulic system, but it was removed before the boat was sold to me. I do want an autopilot some day, but it is not urgent. I will not go out to the open sea for at least couples years. However, I would like to learn and maintain the system and keep it in shape. This is why I am here and asking questions.
Sorry for the confusion. It was not intentional.

If your steering is slow or hard I second the choice for a jog lever. Comnav makes a great unit Jog levers are what you see on crab boats on deadliest catch. Then when your ready for an AP all you need is the control head. You will also need the control module to interface the jog lever to....

LeoKa said:

Where do you see the solenoid on my photos? I don't even know how it looks like.
I don't have jog switches. If I do, I have no idea where should it be?

Click to expand...

OK. Will try to show some pics of components.


I believe this is your engine driven power steering pump. The electric solenoid valve appears to be mounted on or near the pump. Red arrow points to solenoid valve. The solenoid valve should have 3 or 4 wires coming out of it.

A power steering system is very difficult & slow to turn if the engine is stopped,or the engine driven pump is not working properly.
You appear to have the proper heavy duty hydraulic components installed.
However,I don't understand why they used a manual hydraulic helm pump. The norm is to use an Orbitrol helm for power steering.
https://www.eaton.com/EatonComJapan...rolUnit/TypicalSteeringwithOrbitrol/index.htm


I really think you need to find somebody that knows this type of power steering system to have a look at it for you. Perhaps someone in the commercial marine business. These engine driven systems are not an off the shelf package. They are custom assembled for each boat. They are not commonly used on pleasure craft.

Len

For anyone who would like a basic understanding of basic autopilot functions & basic troubleshooting that applies to any autopilot system,look thru this Comnav 2001 manual.
Len


http://www.comnavmarine.com/manuals/29010017_v1r0_2001_Installation_Operation_Manual.pdf

It sounds to me like there is a mix of two systems.

A wheel attached to a pump is one style , a wheel attached to a simple valve , with pressure from an electric autopilot pump OR engine driven pump is another.

If modifications are needed because there was a lack of understanding in the initial build , the parts may be there , just not hooked together right.

I think the owner should draw a schematic of ALL the hyd system , what is hooked to what , and make a list of what is not hooked up.

It is possible the builder used a powered pump of some kind and the wheel pump is some sort of backup.

Perhaps good steering is only a valve position away.
The schematic diagram will help.