Overkill in boat selection for normal cruising

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Weather is part of the sea state equation, currents and depth are others. In NZ you will often get a better sea state roughly 50 miles once you get off the continental shelf.
The coast isn't always your friend, and often far from it.
 
Some thread drift re WX, but part of the equation. As Spinner notes on the west coast there are different forces at play. The offshore SoCal islands in particular can have their own micro weather going on. If anchored, even on the lee, strong downslope winds can occur as the wind is compressed and the velocity increases.

The only significant wind event from the NE (from land) is the Santa Ana (Devil Winds). These generally start up in Sep and run through Jan. Nothing like the PNW, but it can catch people off guard who are not familiar with it and predicted vs actual can be very different. Fagan does a good job in his book describing this and the tell tales to look for and to get out if any doubt if one may be coming.
 
Santa Ana “ Devil Winds “. It’s funny how recent arrivals to SoCal have bought in to this Devil Wind name. It catchy and kind of Hollywood but not founded in fact. My family goes back far enough in that country that their land could be linked to Lucky Baldwin and Gov. Pio Pico granting their land. Anyway Santa Ana winds got their name from the Santa Ana canyons where they swept off the desert and funneled in through the canyon bringing lots of dusts, heat and enough tumbleweeds to choke of towns.

Rick
 
garbler said:
Santa Ana “ Devil Winds “. It’s funny how recent arrivals to SoCal have bought in to this Devil Wind name. It catchy and kind of Hollywood but not founded in fact. My family goes back far enough in that country that their land could be linked to Lucky Baldwin and Gov. Pio Pico granting their land. Anyway Santa Ana winds got their name from the Santa Ana canyons where they swept off the desert and funneled in through the canyon bringing lots of dusts, heat and enough tumbleweeds to choke of towns.

Rick
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Recent arrival? Have lived in CA for 60 years.
 
In the Caribbean downdrafts off the mountains and funneled between them is a concern as well as compression zones as you near them. None show on weather reports nor is there mention of rages in most reports. Worthwhile to take a few marine weather courses and read a few books. Gribs and to large measure weather reports are computer generated. Found it worthwhile to look at several models to decide which to accept or none. I have a particular bugaboo about gribs. Seems too many accept them as gospel. They are probabilities and speak to a fair amount of area. They not infrequently aren’t representative of the hyper local weather. Don’t like thunderstorms as they can cause the loss of electronics and for common rail propulsion. Once the opportunity becomes available like to chat up the local folks as to hot spots and hot times of day. Over time you see fairly consistent zones in your regional waters. Here in SE Massachusetts there seems to be a line at the North River, another from onset to sandwich another at Dennis. Same kind of variance between upper and lower Naragansett with line running around east Greenwich to Bristol. Local weather is local and often poorly represented in grib fields.
Apologize. You’re right because of the direction of the globes spinning and which hemisphere you’re in my statement about weather coming off the land is relevant to only half the world. Very provincial of me and my bad.
 
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garbler said:
Santa Ana “ Devil Winds “. It’s funny how recent arrivals to SoCal have bought in to this Devil Wind name. It catchy and kind of Hollywood but not founded in fact. My family goes back far enough in that country that their land could be linked to Lucky Baldwin and Gov. Pio Pico granting their land. Anyway Santa Ana winds got their name from the Santa Ana canyons where they swept off the desert and funneled in through the canyon bringing lots of dusts, heat and enough tumbleweeds to choke of towns.

Rick
Click to expand...
If you were anchored or moored in Avalon harbor or almost anywhere on
the NE coast of Catalina during a Santa Ana condition you would call them
'Devil Winds', too! ;)
 
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KnotYet said:
If you were anchored or moored in Avalon harbor or almost anywhere on
the NE coast of Catalina during a Santa Ana condition you would call them
'Devil Winds', too! ;)
Click to expand...

While that might be a reasonable description, I have to say the first time I have seen Santa Ana winds called “Devil winds” is in this thread. I’ve lived and boated in SoCal most of my life. Maybe it is a San Diego thing.
 
Yup, possibly Santa Ana himself named them!
 
guy with a boat said:
While that might be a reasonable description, I have to say the first time I have seen Santa Ana winds called “Devil winds” is in this thread. I’ve lived and boated in SoCal most of my life. Maybe it is a San Diego thing.
Click to expand...
Never heard it either but common enough to be called that in Wikipedia.
 
Good thread and agree.

We did thousands of coastal and up to 70nm out to the reef in a Seawind 24 back in our young and stupid days

Spent weeks out, no radio reception, no refrigeration, soggy photocopied charts and handheld compass.

Didn't die once.;)
 

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guy with a boat said:
While that might be a reasonable description, I have to say the first time I have seen Santa Ana winds called “Devil winds” is in this thread. I’ve lived and boated in SoCal most of my life. Maybe it is a San Diego thing.
Click to expand...

Not a San Diego “thing” to my knowledge, but I will make sure to refrain from using that term on TF anymore if that helps you out?

As KnotYet noted, people who have been offshore during these winds know how bad it can get. In Catalina, a Harbor Patrolman and a boater were both killed during a Santa Ana wind. Here is a link: https://thecatalinaislander.com/catalina-storm-claims-life-of-harbor-patrol-officer-and-civlilian/. One of the boaters also did a very comprehensive write up on the web, but I cant find the article/blog. One of the key elements I recall is how the storm was much worse than predicted, which is often the case for these wind events.

Boaters from SoCal are all well aware of this, I was just posting in the interest of others who may not be familiar with it, or plan on coming down here at some point. I know nothing about east coast weather so I always enjoy reading peoples accounts of that area including the Gulf Stream.
 
As I recall, forecast accuracy of Santa Ana winds is relatively recent. They have been known for years, but creating an actionable forecast was elusive, which was Hippocampus' point.

This thread spawned a couple Baja threads. I pulled out my 20-year old cruising guide "Mexico Boating Guide" and another by the same authors John & Pat Rains "Florida to California." Both accomplished commercial delivery skippers, John also penned one of the great books on weather forecasting. He describes "Tehuentepeckers' or T-Peckers.

Tehuentepec is a large, sweeping bay at the southern end of Mexico. Something like 200 nms long which makes it tempting to cut across. Unfortunately, that puts you well over 50 nms offshore. There is a local weather phenomenon where winds scream over the narrow isthmus of Mexico and accelerate to speeds easily reaching hurricane strength. If you're caught 50 nms offshore, you can be in serious trouble, especially if you aren't willing to cede hard won seaway and head downwind. Even just 20 years ago, Rains' best guidance was to watch for a high pressure dome over Texas which aligns the winds perfectly to sweep over the T-Pec isthmus (which was considered for what became the Panama Canal). Best advice I received was to hug the shore so there is no fetch. I've seen 30+ kts sustained but barely ripples. It adds less than 30 nms to the crossing.

Another weather lesson I learned in the same area. Huatulco was a popular cruiser staging area to cross T-Pec on a Southbound passage. Two things would happen: they would wait for perfect conditions for the entire 1.5 day run vs leave when conditions were acceptable for the middle leg, a much easier window (sort of the Gretzky approach of skating to where the puck will be). Second, herd mentality runs rampant in the cruiser community so weather decisions for departure planning would be dictated by the lowest denominator. It's why I'm adamant that developing an independent weather sense is the most important seamanship skill for cruising independence.

BTW- same weather phenomenon several hundred miles further south in Golfo de Papagayo Costa Rica.

The Sea of Cortez has its own unusual weather patterns. I forget what they are called locally but they are preceeded by extraordinary calm conditions - the only wavelets are from pelicans diving for fish (slight exaggeration), a day or two of that, and all hell breaks loose.

So obviously, I do not totally discount local weather phenomenon. But I am comfortable with improvements in forecasting reduce risk to an acceptable level for me.

Peter
1107790183.jpg
 
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<<Tehuentepec is a large, sweeping bay at the southern end of Mexico. Something like 200 nms long which makes it tempting to cut across. Unfortunately, that puts you well over 50 nms offshore. There is a local weather phenomenon where winds scream over the narrow isthmus of Mexico and accelerate to speeds easily reaching hurricane strength. If you're caught 50 nms offshore, you can be in serious trouble, especially if you aren't willing to cede hard won seaway and head downwind.>>

One of the worst wind and sea states I experienced while shipping out was going thru Tehuentepec during one of those rippers.
 
I have spent an hour reading through this thread and the many seasoned points illustrated. Thought I could add a perspective that may help a choice. My wife is nervous of things outside of her experience but luckily for me, also an adventurous sort. My background is UK Merchant Marine so I think "commercial" when I think "boat". I promised her we'd build as robust as we could but having done so needed to follow up on that.

A "typical" Explorer type yacht (Fleming, Bering, FPB if I can put them all in the same sentence) will set you back $$$. Even second hand they run high e.g. a 2017 Fleming 65 juss came on the market at $3.5M; it will sell. That is well beyond the reach of most of us on this forum. Build one yourself to commercial standards (think Mobius) and you are looking at about half of that new depending how she's specified. Ours will come in a bit more but inflation has its way and we have an adventurous specification. Thats still a chunk of cash. Then comes in our own experience of property development and we will offset the cost by renting our land based traditional home when not in it, on the mid USA Atlantic Coast the short term rents are healthy since the pandemic emptied the cities. So given she will become our home the costs are comparable to having your own "forever home" on the river/shoreline somewhere popular. Only ours will float and not rot.

Specifying to commercial standards is a bit eye watering, like building an aeroplane for giggles. However, sourcing yourself and being imaginative can reduce this markedly so much so that in many instances it was cheaper than letting an Italian yard fit the bling it typically does. So we get advantages of mean time between failures while mitigating the costs. And we get to pal it with the fishing boats when we want to (better conversations to be had).

Is all this necessary, hell no. Is it necessary to improve aircraft reliability from 99.9 to 99.99%, hell no either. But the headlines won't like it otherwise. On a brighter note I did suggest to Sebrina that the easiest way to improve reliability was to get rid of me. Luckily she declined the invitation. :)
 
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Congrats on the trip. Long distance cruises are technically challenging etc…. But more importantly endurance trials for both ship and captain. I am happy for you. Good stuff

That being said “My small 4788” !?!?! 1/4 Million dollar boat? Lol.

I suppose you talking relative to the thoroughbred boat costs.

In any case. Congrats on the trip and beat wishes for your future travels.
 
I couldn’t agree more!
I own a wooden 1967 Grand Banks 32. Slow but safe enough to handle most weather and go far at 1.5 GPH. It’s a truly affordable little yacht. No need for bigger/faster, helipad equipped yacht.
 
With all due respect disagree with OS. He has a lovely coastal boat I’m sure but totally unsuitable for long range cruising.
One of the insurmountable issues with LRC is self sufficiency. Beyond self sufficiency in weather it means adequate storage. Key elements go well beyond just fuel and water (a watermaker makes water a nearly non issue) but also spares, tools and food.
Let’s take an example -water. Last boat had a low output DC watermaker. A non electronic Spectra Cape Horn extreme. Still we carried hundreds of pounds of bottled water. I’ve experienced contaminated water tanks even with two, no sunlight and a broken genset. That water has been used. Admittedly twice in multiple decades. But then it was key. Cruisers say “if you didn’t bring it with you, you ain’t got it”. You need to prepare for the oddball thing. So the filters for watermakers take up room. Wise cruisers will have multiple source for the electricity to run them, multiple water tanks and still multiple small containers independent of the boat.
You can pick any facet of life on a boat and do this exercise. The cruising boat carries tools and spares for key systems. Many are for jobs that will never need to be done or done very rarely. Been places domestically let alone internationally where both the part and the tool to use the part was unavailable. Some times obsolete but more often backordered with no statement when it would be available. Let’s say you’re in Washington county Maine and need something as simple as gaskets for your examination ports of your diesel tanks. Got news for you if you didn’t bring it with you you ain’t got it. And that’s with internet being available along with a usable mailing address.
Two key elements to mission success when lrc are the boat doesn’t break because the money, space and design are bulletproof or it does break but you can fix it with what’s on hand. There’s a huge jump between coastal and blue water and it isn’t in the cosmetics. This jump is even before redundant systems.
All this means weight and space. Here’s the big advantage of FD boats. They can tolerate the weight. Like with race cars each ounce of weight becomes progressively more expensive to eliminate in boats and still maintain the strength required.
People talk about size mattering in weather. To my mind equally important is allowable payload. For the same design if you go from steel to glass you have more payload. Then solid glass to core you get more. Then Aluminum alloy more. Then carbon even more. To maintain the same strength you’re blowing big bucks. Most of the weight of a cruising boat is not the hull. Definitely the law of diminishing returns is applicable.
In sail there’s a saying “go small go now”. Cruising you see home brew hard chine steel boats. These were fabricated in backyards by the owners at very short money but still capable of doing the pond successfully. They are not confined in range due to size of the bunkers by are at risk due to ability to store food, water, tools and spares. Power doesn’t have two modes of propulsion. Screw doesn’t turn you’re not going anywhere. Fuel is weight and space. Power is more complexity.
When you plan passage you take the amount of food and water required per day multiple it by number of people multiply again by number of days and then add a safety margin of at least a third more. Don’t see that happening for my current boat nor a GB36.
 
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As far as having stuff with you vs not at all, it depends on where you cruise. I agree that for plenty of stuff, you can't count on how fast you can buy one. It may be out of stock and leave you stuck for a month. But in many places, having a friend or family ship you a part that you have stocked at home is a viable option (with a few days delay).

So some items that are very unlikely to be needed may be reasonable to have, but leave behind if you have a land-based place to keep them and someone that would be able to access them for you. In particular for stuff you wouldn't just be able to swap out without some amount of outside assistance that would need to be arranged.

I treat my spare props that way, for example. They're big and heavy, as are the tools to change them. And I'm not a diver, so I can't change them myself without outside help (unless we happen to be traveling somewhere I could put the boat on a tidal grid, which is a minority of possible destinations). At that point, losing a day or 2 to have the props shipped to me isn't a big deal, as I'll have to arrange either a diver or haulout for a swap (which likely takes a little time) anyway.
 
Hippocampus said:
With all due respect disagree with OS. He has a lovely coastal boat I’m sure but totally unsuitable for long range cruising.
One of the insurmountable issues with LRC is self sufficiency. Beyond self sufficiency in weather it means adequate storage. Key elements go well beyond just fuel and water (a watermaker makes water a nearly non issue) but also spares, tools and food.
Let’s take an example -water. Last boat had a low output DC watermaker. A non electronic Spectra Cape Horn extreme. Still we carried hundreds of pounds of bottled water. I’ve experienced contaminated water tanks even with two, no sunlight and a broken genset. That water has been used. Admittedly twice in multiple decades. But then it was key. Cruisers say “if you didn’t bring it with you, you ain’t got it”. You need to prepare for the oddball thing. So the filters for watermakers take up room. Wise cruisers will have multiple source for the electricity to run them, multiple water tanks and still multiple small containers independent of the boat.
You can pick any facet of life on a boat and do this exercise. The cruising boat carries tools and spares for key systems. Many are for jobs that will never need to be done or done very rarely. Been places domestically let alone internationally where both the part and the tool to use the part was unavailable. Some times obsolete but more often backordered with no statement when it would be available. Let’s say you’re in Washington county Maine and need something as simple as gaskets for your examination ports of your diesel tanks. Got news for you if you didn’t bring it with you you ain’t got it. And that’s with internet being available along with a usable mailing address.
Two key elements to mission success when lrc are the boat doesn’t break because the money, space and design are bulletproof or it does break but you can fix it with what’s on hand. There’s a huge jump between coastal and blue water and it isn’t in the cosmetics. This jump is even before redundant systems.
All this means weight and space. Here’s the big advantage of FD boats. They can tolerate the weight. Like with race cars each ounce of weight becomes progressively more expensive to eliminate in boats and still maintain the strength required.
People talk about size mattering in weather. To my mind equally important is allowable payload. For the same design if you go from steel to glass you have more payload. Then solid glass to core you get more. Then Aluminum alloy more. Then carbon even more. To maintain the same strength you’re blowing big bucks. Most of the weight of a cruising boat is not the hull. Definitely the law of diminishing returns is applicable.
In sail there’s a saying “go small go now”. Cruising you see home brew hard chine steel boats. These were fabricated in backyards by the owners at very short money but still capable of doing the pond successfully. They are not confined in range due to size of the bunkers by are at risk due to ability to store food, water, tools and spares. Power doesn’t have two modes of propulsion. Screw doesn’t turn you’re not going anywhere. Fuel is weight and space. Power is more complexity.
When you plan passage you take the amount of food and water required per day multiple it by number of people multiply again by number of days and then add a safety margin of at least a third more. Don’t see that happening for my current boat nor a GB36.
Click to expand...

We're not talking about overkill for boats crossing oceans.

We are talking about boats traveling down a coastline. Big difference.

I spent three months cruising between Alaska and Ensenada Mexico. Almost every night was spent tied up in a harbor.

You can over think this to death, but the reality is that I did not make a 100 day voyage...

I made 100 one day voyages.
 
ksanders said:
We're not talking about overkill for boats crossing oceans.

We are talking about boats traveling down a coastline. Big difference.

I spent three months cruising between Alaska and Ensenada Mexico. Almost every night was spent tied up in a harbor.

You can over think this to death, but the reality is that I did not make a 100 day voyage...

I made 100 one day voyages.
Click to expand...

"We are talking about boats traveling down a coastline. Big difference.
I made 100 one day voyages"

We went up the coast from Sanford Fl to Albany NY in our first 21.5-foot boat along the coastline with numerous 1 days stops.
It was a long time ago when we were younger and did not find much any of it a problem....
 
Excellent idea RS. We did that when out of the country. Bu even went as far as emailing a list of various things we needed and having family shop it as they had better internet and phone service. They’d buy it and ship it to where we were. Still that got rid of only a small percentage of needed things. Shipping is a PIA. A lot of things are bizarrely considered hazmat. The chemicals to pickle our watermaker were considered such by St.Vincent. They sat in customs as we argued with them. Finally got them to open the box and read the label. Obviously a chemical to to pickle domestic water can’t be hazmat. Also ran into troubles “importing” various things in spite of being “a yacht in transit “. Would go home for Xmas and the school breaks. Hide stuff in carry on luggage. Small stuff like motherboards and other small electronics components. Got friendly with a manager at one of the island world stores who let me use him as a import broker. Many ways to skin the cat but the old saw ….you ain’t got it still holds true imho.
Think the DDs came closest to a LRC at reasonable expense. A strong steel boat with range and adequate payload for cruising. Looked seriously at the 462. Unfortunately few on the used market and some say the company has gone a bit sideways recently making one nervous about a new build. Especially in the current state of geopolitics. To some extent but much less true for Turkey. Bank for the buck maybe Vietnam and Poland or used Dutch. But unfortunately for North Americans LRC boats hard to find at reasonable costs not paying for a name.
My father in law and a close friend built a 54’ steel trawler in Weymouth. He did the electrical and mechanical. The other gentleman owned a steel supply & service house and had in house skilled welders. When ever they weren’t on a job they were at the boat. Ended up with a good boat that did the big U but unfortunately wrecked in Alaska by the second owner. Those situations are rare. Don’t know of similar situations whereas home brew is not uncommon in sail. Think it’s because you can get away with 36 to 40’ in sail but not in power.
 
With this current boat we intend to do the same except when weather allows will do multi day near shore transits. Can add in do you want to cruise on the grid harbor to harbor or off grid. That’s as important as as ocean or coastal. On grid chews up the cruising kitty pretty fast now a days. Say what you want but self sufficiency gives freedom. Was shocked a mooring (not a slip) was a hundred bucks a night in Stonington. Availability of getting a slip has become a bigger hassle wherever you are.
 
Hippocampus said:
Still that got rid of only a small percentage of needed things. Shipping is a PIA. A lot of things are bizarrely considered hazmat.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can see customs, etc. becoming more of a problem as you get further afield. But within the US and probably Canada, it should be much less of an issue (and that covers a large portion of the travel by members here). In my mind, even though large / heavy things are expensive to ship (especially if you want it fast), they're the biggest targets (provided they're unlikely to be needed). The space and weight freed up by a pair of props on my boat can carry a whole lot of other spare parts, for example.
 
Hippocampus said:
With this current boat we intend to do the same except when weather allows will do multi day near shore transits. Can add in do you want to cruise on the grid harbor to harbor or off grid. That’s as important as as ocean or coastal. On grid chews up the cruising kitty pretty fast now a days. Say what you want but self sufficiency gives freedom. Was shocked a mooring (not a slip) was a hundred bucks a night in Stonington. Availability of getting a slip has become a bigger hassle wherever you are.
Click to expand...

I am fully equipped for off grid life on the boat. Solar, watermaker, good generator, etc... and have spent many one week to ten day trips away from any port.

On this trip I chose to harbor hop. As a solo boater It is much more fun to have the social experiences that come with harbor life.

The same is true for multi day nearshore voyages. Being a solo boater means day trips for safety.
 
Kevin you’re a better man than I gunda din. Never much minded being by myself underway. I retired a year earlier than the bride so did that for 12 m except when she had vacation time. But I found the time at anchor or even in a slip more difficult and less fun. Guess it’s matter of personality and setting.
Current boat also has solar, genset and watermaker. Also two freezers and a large frig. Sailboat had the same plus wind generators and a dedicated workroom with ample space for storage, 4 fuel tanks and two water tanks. Clearly the sailboat was more self sufficient. Went shopping monthly except for fruit, fresh veggies and baked goods. Those are important treats for quality of life but not necessaries. Smell of baking bread in a boat is just wonderful. Never got scurvy. Non refrigerated eggs last a long time as does vacuumed bagged stuff.
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,

One sees the same "overkill" in cars as well. Big 4X4's that never see mud or a gravel road and exotic sports cars that seldom exceed 70MPH. That $800K class A motor home has the same view of the KOA pool and snack bar as the young couple with the 10 year old Chevy and a tent.

Over 4 summers, a few years back, we took our 2 grandsons (6 and 10 the first year) on a week long boating trip. Myself, wife, 70lb. dog, the two boys with supplies and gear would cast off the lines for a cruise. Traveling canals and lakes on a 23' boat. They eventually developed other interests (girls) but I wouldn't swap those adventures for anything.

As Nike advertises...Just do it.
Click to expand...
Uh, Firefly, there are so many other reasons for owning (and using) a "big" 4x4 than going off road. Anyone living in snow country and having a use for a pickup owns a 4x4. Mine is a 3/4 ton. I have used it to haul many loads of gravel and stone. Try that with a half-ton 2-wheel drive. Can you say spinning wheels going nowhere. Or pulling a boat on a trailer out of the water from a steep boat ramp. Yup, a 2-wheel will manytimes be unsuccessful.
 
catalinajack said:
Uh, Firefly, there are so many other reasons for owning (and using) a "big" 4x4 than going off road. Anyone living in snow country and having a use for a pickup owns a 4x4. Mine is a 3/4 ton. I have used it to haul many loads of gravel and stone. Try that with a half-ton 2-wheel drive. Can you say spinning wheels going nowhere. Or pulling a boat on a trailer out of the water from a steep boat ramp. Yup, a 2-wheel will manytimes be unsuccessful.
Click to expand...

Being a many decades long masonry, concrete and tile contractor... it's 4WD, lockout front hubs, 4 to 6 speed standard shift transmission, mechanical stick shift transfer box and big wheels on all my trucks... or else no-go situations can arise... under many circumstances.

During 1975 through 1984 at 6,000' elevation in the Sierra Nevada mountains my construction trucks [snow plows attached during winter] were all big-bad bifey brutes!

In keeping with my needs and background... two SUV's we currently own are also 4WD.

Only 2WD I own is 1967 Buick Wildcat high performance muscle car!!

4WD - Or, BUST!!! LOL :dance:
 
Also have a diesel 4by Jeep that goes up and down a foot, changes shift points and is a true 4by with limited slips and slid plates. It get used on the beach, double track in NH, flooded roads and snow. Yes use is probably <5% of total miles traveled but in those 5% nothing else will do.
Same with boats. Bad weather is very rare if you pay a modicum of attention to weather. But one bad T storm or squall can ruin your whole day.
I don’t go anywhere now a days without the bride. She won’t tolerate camping. She won’t tolerate being scared too often. A solid ride and the comforts of home means she will feel confident and content. She needs to feel proud of our boat and know it can handle whatever we may see if we don’t do anything stupid. I love her more than any boat. That sets the floor on what boat I will own.
Unfortunately even after her having a full lifetime of boating (as a child she spent her whole summers living on a boat and was a liveaboard for 8years with me) it’s all about emotion not reality. On all of our boats including the current one she doesn’t worry much about the boat being able to meet demands. That’s one less thing on the anxiety list. That alone is worth the bucks.
 
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