Overkill in boat selection for normal cruising

The reality is that as folks have mentioned, unexpected weather events do happen. Waves get big quickly, and things can get scary.

This is where the captains experience comes in. Not for survival, but for the perception of survival.

This is an extremely important point, and one that cannot be overemphasized. The captain of the boat NEEDS th know that even though conditions are bad, the boat, and all aboard are going to get through it.

Case in point, some on this thread have mentioned that the times they were in fear of their lives was in bad weather conditions.

Maybe, just maybe the solution to the problem could be achieved through gaining confidence in your boat's capabilities. The reality is that pretty much ZERO well maintained boats on sufficient size, suitable in accommodations for life aboard are at risk of sinking in ANY unexpected coastal weather condition.

How go you gain confidence in your boat??? The answer is simple, use it. Taking it out only on perfect days will not prepare you for rough weather.

Take your boat out in increasingly rough conditions and learn how to handle those conditions. Gain confidence in your skills and the real capabilities your boat already has.

Then, when unexpected weather events occur you will be prepared. You will be confident.

ksanders said:

The reality is that as folks have mentioned, unexpected weather events do happen. Waves get big quickly, and things can get scary.

This is where the captains experience comes in. Not for survival, but for the perception of survival.

This is an extremely important point, and one that cannot be overemphasized. The captain of the boat NEEDS th know that even though conditions are bad, the boat, and all aboard are going to get through it.

Case in point, some on this thread have mentioned that the times they were in fear of their lives was in bad weather conditions.

Maybe, just maybe the solution to the problem could be achieved through gaining confidence in your boat's capabilities. The reality is that pretty much ZERO well maintained boats on sufficient size, suitable in accommodations for life aboard are at risk of sinking in ANY unexpected coastal weather condition.

How go you gain confidence in your boat??? The answer is simple, use it. Taking it out only on perfect days will not prepare you for rough weather.

Take your boat out in increasingly rough conditions and learn how to handle those conditions. Gain confidence in your skills and the real capabilities your boat already has.

Then, when unexpected weather events occur you will be prepared. You will be confident.

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On top of that, when conditions are getting challenging, how good you are at operating the boat can make a difference in whether you damage things, whether the ride is unpleasant vs miserable, etc.

Gentlemen although I’m a newbie to power I’m not a total newbie having done deliveries and even passage for friends. Still I beg to differ a bit. We were anchored close to shore on Long Island side of LI Sound when 50-60 k came through. Not forecasted. Didn’t drag fortunately. Was helping a friend delivering 36’ GB. Would have hated to be in the middle of the sound. Was in Block island sound on a day of forecasted 10-15k and 1-2’ and knocked down. Boat was totaled. Left Maine going to MA with forecast of 10-15 gusts to 20k slight chance of rain or snow. Had 3 days of Beaufort storm blew out the rags, had floorboards floating, shorted the batteries, declared overdue, came in 8 days later, all 4 crew spent time in the hospital. Admittedly that was before current weather accuracy and buoys were out but not reported out by NOAA. Doing a simple PHRF Saturday race white squall. We did fine. Other boats did not. Could fill a page with this stuff as I’m sure you can. The point I’m trying to make is even now weather forecasting is probabilities and is regional. Weather for boaters isn’t regional it’s hyper local. As you say people get too cavalier on boats so get into trouble. In my view some don’t grasp probabilities, their endurance, their skill set, limits of their boats, they don’t plan ahead. Even after years and years of cruising with my admiral I still need to go through the boat check all hatches, clear all surfaces and decks, empty the sink, put stuff away, occasionally latch lockers frig and freezer and she’s an fairly experienced person. Sometimes I find nothing, sometimes not.
I’m trying to offer a counterpoint to we’ll be fine honey-let’s go. Agree boating is safer than driving your car but that’s predicated on common sense, a good boat used within its capabilities and a good crew. This macho stuff I’m strong, my boats strong should have no place in the thinking of a cruiser. I’m trying to stress the need for a good solid platform, adequate prep and training for contingencies. I understand the point KS is trying to make and agree there’s no need for a BWB if coastal but there remains a large variance in the seaworthiness of coastal boats.

Hippocampus said:

Gentlemen although I’m a newbie to power I’m not a total newbie having done deliveries and even passage for friends. Still I beg to differ a bit. We were anchored close to shore on Long Island side of LI Sound when 50-60 k came through. Not forecasted. Didn’t drag fortunately. Was helping a friend delivering 36’ GB. Would have hated to be in the middle of the sound. Was in Block island sound on a day of forecasted 10-15k and 1-2’ and knocked down. Boat was totaled. Left Maine going to MA with forecast of 10-15 gusts to 20k slight chance of rain or snow. Had 3 days of Beaufort storm blew out the rags, had floorboards floating, shorted the batteries, declared overdue, came in 8 days later, all 4 crew spent time in the hospital. Admittedly that was before current weather accuracy and buoys were out but not reported out by NOAA. Doing a simple PHRF Saturday race white squall. We did fine. Other boats did not. Could fill a page with this stuff as I’m sure you can. The point I’m trying to make is even now weather forecasting is probabilities and is regional. Weather for boaters isn’t regional it’s hyper local. As you say people get too cavalier on boats so get into trouble. In my view some don’t grasp probabilities, their endurance, their skill set, limits of their boats, they don’t plan ahead. Even after years and years of cruising with my admiral I still need to go through the boat check all hatches, clear all surfaces and decks, empty the sink, put stuff away, occasionally latch lockers frig and freezer and she’s an fairly experienced person. Sometimes I find nothing, sometimes not.
I’m trying to offer a counterpoint to we’ll be fine honey-let’s go. Agree boating is safer than driving your car but that’s predicated on common sense, a good boat used within its capabilities and a good crew. This macho stuff I’m strong, my boats strong should have no place in the thinking of a cruiser. I’m trying to stress the need for a good solid platform, adequate prep and training for contingencies. I understand the point KS is trying to make and agree there’s no need for a BWB if coastal but there remains a large variance in the seaworthiness of coastal boats.

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My opinion is that you are correct, but the differences in seaworthiness is not brand centric, it is hull form centric. Boats of similar hull forms will behave similarially, regardless of the brand name.

The reality is that my Bayliner does not have the fit and finish of a higher priced boat. The equipment and the fittings are all the same brand names, IE Cummins, PERKO, etc... Where the price difference is clear is in the fit and finish.

My Bayliner is finished out similar to a Uniflite, or Tollycraft. The cabinetry is nice, but it is not on the level of for example the prestige 52 right next to me today.

Prettier does not mean more seaworthy,

ksanders said:

My opinion is that you are correct, but the differences in seaworthiness is not brand centric, it is hull form centric. Boats of similar hull forms will behave similarially, regardless of the brand name.

The reality is that my Bayliner does not have the fit and finish of a higher priced boat. The equipment and the fittings are all the same brand names, IE Cummins, PERKO, etc... Where the price difference is clear is in the fit and finish.

My Bayliner is finished out similar to a Uniflite, or Tollycraft. The cabinetry is nice, but it is not on the level of for example the prestige 52 right next to me today.

Prettier does not mean more seaworthy,

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Agreed. A higher end boat may be built stronger or use better parts, but it doesn't necessarily. It may just be better finished and "nicer". And different boats hold up differently over time as well, so strength and capability when new may degrade more on some boats than others with an average level of care and maintenance.

This boat has a Captain's harness in the pilothouse installed by a previous owner. Strapped in at the helm. Wonder where this boat has been or was planning to go

So, assuming a relatively experienced crew and a decently prepared boat, what does a "Solid Platform" mean?

Here are two examples - 1985 Ocean Alexander 42-foot ACMY; and a 1985 Grand Banks Motoryacht style. Both priced at $159k. Both the types of boats many on TF already own.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-ocean-alexander-aft-cabin-7318909/

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-grand-banks-motor-yacht-8296517/

Pertaining to the boat (assume adequate and reasonable prep and crew resume), what should someone look for? The biggest difference I can see is the OA has 330 gals diesel; the GB has 600. For weather survivability, tangential consideration at best.

What about boats like these should give an owner who'd like to coastal cruise from Seattle to Mexico; or Maine to Bahamas, reason to sell their boat and buy a more adequate boat?

Peter

rslifkin said:

Agreed. A higher end boat may be built stronger or use better parts, but it doesn't necessarily. It may just be better finished and "nicer". And different boats hold up differently over time as well, so strength and capability when new may degrade more on some boats than others with an average level of care and maintenance.

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Something to think about...

When is the last time anyone here has even heard about a boat of the types we are discussing capsize, or break apart.

We might discuss it, but does it really happen?

mvweebles said:

I dunno. Maybe its a definition of "normal." Vast majority of my boating has been along the Pacific Coast, and San Francisco Bay. Both power and sail. A normal summer day in "The Slot" of SF Bay (unprotected area downwind of GG Bridge) is 25-30 kts and 4-6 foot chop, and sometimes more. Normal daily currents run to 3-kts; but can easily run 6+ kts during peak times in winter. Tides are typically in the 5-6 foot range, but can run to 9-feet. This is simply 'normal.' Go outside the gate and you add more wind, fetch plus swell. That's normal, which is why relatively few venture more than a few yard past the GG Bridge. Folks who sail other Pacific Coast areas have fewer protected options. Point being, the "Normal" conditions are a decent proving ground for both person and boat (vast majority of which are in the 36-42 foot range, power and sail). Outside the Gate, it's pretty uncommon to see sustained chop of more than about 8-foot (though 12-15 foot swells are not uncommon, so when combined, can be a bit of an E-Ticket ride though note that swells are virtually always well-forecasted).

So, assuming a relatively experienced crew and a decently prepared boat, what does a "Solid Platform" for these general conditions mean? Say, these two examples - 1985 Ocean Alexander 42-foot ACMY; and a 1985 Grand Banks Motoryacht style. Both priced at $159k.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-ocean-alexander-aft-cabin-7318909/

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1985-grand-banks-motor-yacht-8296517/

What should someone look for to make the run from Seattle to La Paz? I can tell you that boats very similar to these have made these types of runs many, many times. Was it just luck? Seriously, just because someone has gotten away with stuff doesn't make it a good idea. People have crossed oceans in a West Wight Potter 15. Doing this successfully means getting lucky.

Peter

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I used to row my Maas 24 rowing single which is 24’ X 14” (yes 14 inches at waterline!) regularly from Sausalito under the Golden Gate Bridge out to Point Bonita which is a mile plus past

So…a novice wouldn’t want to try that but the boat was entirely capable under the right conditions. (Picture of a friend in one of our races)

https://www.maasboats.com/shells-2/maas-24/

I’d feel safer in any of the boats you mention! Remounting when flipped is a scary thing.

But just because an expert can do it - with the experts judgement of when to go or no go - doesn’t mean a novice should attempt it. I’d apply the same judgment for the run from Alaska to Mexico.

bowball said:

I used to row my Maas 24 rowing single which is 24’ X 14” (yes 14 inches at waterline!) regularly from Sausalito under the Golden Gate Bridge out to Point Bonita which is a mile plus past

So…a novice wouldn’t want to try that but the boat was entirely capable under the right conditions. (Picture of a friend in one of our races)

https://www.maasboats.com/shells-2/maas-24/

I’d feel safer in any of the boats you mention! Remounting when flipped is a scary thing.

But just because an expert can do it - with the experts judgement of when to go or no go - doesn’t mean a novice should attempt it. I’d apply the same judgment for the run from Alaska to Mexico.

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Trying to create a parallel between taking a (name your brand) "non expedition" level boat from Alaska to Mexico, and your taking a row boat out to sea is really far fetched.

Seriously???

People like to make this same "need a more capable boat" argument about going to Alaska, yet the harbors of Seward, Homer, Cordova, Valdez, Whittier, thousands of boats, all made it on their own bottoms across the Gulf of Alaska.

i cannot remember even ONE report of a pleasure boat being capsized, or breaking apart in the famously rough and dangerous Gulf of Alaska which BTW is the longest stretch of open water with no place to hide in North America.

ksanders said:

Trying to create a parallel between taking a (name your brand) "non expedition" level boat from Alaska to Mexico, and your taking a row boat out to sea is really far fetched.

Seriously???

People like to make this same "need a more capable boat" argument about going to Alaska, yet the harbors of Seward, Homer, Cordova, Valdez, Whittier, thousands of boats, all made it on their own bottoms across the Gulf of Alaska.

i cannot remember even ONE report of a pleasure boat being capsized, or breaking apart in the famously rough and dangerous Gulf of Alaska which BTW is the longest stretch of open water with no place to hide in North America.

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I actually think I was doing the opposite!
I was reacting to Peter’s description of the Gate.

I’d do your run in my coastal boat after studying it enough. Not single handed though by my choice.

(We don’t call them row boats, sliding seat scull) is more dignified! .

SteveK said:

This boat has a Captain's harness in the pilothouse installed by a previous owner. Strapped in at the helm. Wonder where this boat has been or was planning to go

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I'd like to read/learn more about the Captain's harness, please.

If it is rough close to shore, you may have to go further out and wait it out.
Same goes for a cut. You can ride the back of a wave to get in through the cut. I've done when entering the cut. Done properly, it can look graceful. Improperly, a Chinese fire drill, you just might broach making almost impossible to recover. That is why I like to have a boat that is not limited to a max of 8 knots.

SteveK said:

This boat has a Captain's harness in the pilothouse installed by a previous owner. Strapped in at the helm. Wonder where this boat has been or was planning to go

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That's pretty serious.

There are some cost related variance between boats that are meaningful. To name a few.
How port lights, hatches and doors are done. (This sometimes makes a otherwise A boat a B)
How clearing ports are constructed.
Are preformed liners used and where?
Resin to glass ratios and type of resin. Type of fabric-mat, woven, e, exotic, cf,aramid etc. details of the layup.
How much chopper gun and where
Tabbing instead of fully glassed in. Especially for bulkheads and other structural elements.
Hull deck joining technique and execution.
Nature of thru hulls used and installation.
Nature of and placement of backing plates.
List goes on and on
Maybe the boat doesn’t sink just falls apart.
We can discuss quality endlessly. There’s variance in both stick built and modular adhesive held. Agree finest of infill doesn’t correlate with quality of structural build but not infrequently price does. Unfortunately beyond the hype most of the high priced “quality “ brands are actually more structurally sound than the price point production series runs. It isn’t just cosmetics. Perhaps those more knowledgeable than I may wish to comment. As an example Walter built a solid boat both in power and sail. Several posters here own his 45. Even as grand dames they are strong boats. Same with the Willard crowd who is well represented here. So respectfully disagree some brands are strong boats and some aren’t. Yes you can start with a strong boat and trash it as was done with many of the the Nordhavns we shopped. But they have strong bones.

ksanders said:

That's pretty serious.

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I was thinking about installing a lap belt but a 'harness' steps it up more than a few notches.

I dont think anyone is disputing how nice a big blue water boat is for longer coastal cruising. Many of these “expedition style” boats are used for some serious exploring including some of the folks here on TF. But many of them do spend the majority of their time in slips, and/or people tap out after a few years and sell them. Nothing wrong with that.

I think the important point most are making is to get out and do it while we can because Father Time doesn't care what type of boat we have.

We all have stories about people who buy larger cruising boats and don't do much with them. A quick one: Ex Marine Corp, 20 years, retired Colonel, saw action in Afghanistan and Iraq. IE, a pretty tough guy. He boat a sailboat, and for the next couple years kept spending money on the latest electronics etc because he wanted to go exploring. He was always uncomfortable in the open ocean and eventually gave it up and just sold his boat a few months ago. Again, nothing wrong with that because he has nothing to prove and the open ocean was just not his thing. We have all seen many people spend tons of money on boats, including new builds, but they do harbor cruises for awhile and then sell. And again, nothing wrong with this, its their money and time not mine.

The folks who really enjoy open water make it happen no matter what they have. And many of these people (men and women) have the background, experience, and chops to do it.

Bowball, we ran in the same group. I used to paddle a 17 in wide carbon Surfski from Sausalito to the potato patch on occasion when I was younger. Surfski Champs west coast used that course. I was a mid packer, just trying to hang on.

Going through my stuff, I found a 2003 version of the Mexico Boating Guide by Pat & John Rains (both legendary delivery skippers). With that and Coastal Explorer running CMAP, I cobbled the attached distance chart between anchorages. Many are open-roadsteds, but distances look doable, even for a committed single-hander. My current plan is to shove-off next Feb 1st. In deference to my wife, I've tried to come up with shorter distances. Besides, will give us a change to sample tacos along the way.

Peter

Should said Cherubini . My bad

We should not be criticizing people's personal preferences. If your boating style is to only go a few miles and anchor off the local sandbar on the weekend, and you like like the look and features of a Nordhavn 52...have at it. Who are we to begrudge someone who buys the boat they like and uses it the way they want ?
I think instead of focusing on the people with "over-capable" boats, this community would be doing a greater service by educating the people who feel trapped in port because they think their boat is "under-capable". A jet ski can cross the Atlantic in the right conditions. Any mismatch between captain skill and boat capability is going to waste resources. Earnest Shakleton would have a hard time taking a houseboat to Hawaii, and I probably couldn't get a 75 foot Expedition Yacht to Tahitii. Like so many other things, the answer is harmony. Finding the perfect match of skill, comfort, need, and vessel.

Hippocampus said:

There are some cost related variance between boats that are meaningful. To name a few.
How port lights, hatches and doors are done. (This sometimes makes a otherwise A boat a B)
How clearing ports are constructed.
Are preformed liners used and where?
Resin to glass ratios and type of resin. Type of fabric-mat, woven, e, exotic, cf,aramid etc. details of the layup.
How much chopper gun and where
Tabbing instead of fully glassed in. Especially for bulkheads and other structural elements.
Hull deck joining technique and execution.
Nature of thru hulls used and installation.
Nature of and placement of backing plates.
List goes on and on
Maybe the boat doesn’t sink just falls apart.

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Thanks for the list hippocampus. Helpful and informative.

Peter

mvweebles said:

Going through my stuff, I found a 2003 version of the Mexico Boating Guide by Pat & John Rains (both legendary delivery skippers). With that and Coastal Explorer running CMAP, I cobbled the attached distance chart between anchorages. Many are open-roadsteds, but distances look doable, even for a committed single-hander. My current plan is to shove-off next Feb 1st. In deference to my wife, I've tried to come up with shorter distances. Besides, will give us a change to sample tacos along the way.

Peter

View attachment 132279

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That is the route and stops I am looking at. Thanks for drawing it out.

I'm leaving November 14 or thereabouts.

Benthic2 said:

We should not be criticizing people's personal preferences. If your boating style is to only go a few miles and anchor off the local sandbar on the weekend, and you like like the look and features of a Nordhavn 52...have at it. Who are we to begrudge someone who buys the boat they like and uses it the way they want ?
I think instead of focusing on the people with "over-capable" boats, this community would be doing a greater service by educating the people who feel trapped in port because they think their boat is "under-capable". A jet ski can cross the Atlantic in the right conditions. Any mismatch between captain skill and boat capability is going to waste resources. Earnest Shakleton would have a hard time taking a houseboat to Hawaii, and I probably couldn't get a 75 foot Expedition Yacht to Tahitii. Like so many other things, the answer is harmony. Finding the perfect match of skill, comfort, need, and vessel.

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Just loosely following along on this thread, but not sure where you come up with the “criticizing others preferences” part. It appears to me people are saying run with you ja got, and go for it. In my earlier post I referenced someone who thought they would like the blue water sailing thing but they found out otherwise so they bailed. I also clearly stated, so what, its his money and time and he figured it was on to something else and a different chapter.

Run with what ya got? Certainly. But, apologies to Clint Eastwood when I say "A man's got to know his boat's limitations".

Then there is that discussion about being new and pretty vs. old and ugly. There are plenty of old ugly looking boats that can handle a bad weather scenario better than a modern 'dream boat'.

OldDan1943 said:

I was thinking about installing a lap belt but a 'harness' steps it up more than a few notches.

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I have only looked at it, have not strapped it on yet. Looks to go around the waist and attach to either side has a ring to clip onto. Guess you stand there and it keeps your balance for you. Now I wonder if you can sit in helm chair.

rslifkin said:

Securing furniture is a good point. I'd love to see a discussion on how to secure moveable pieces of furniture while they're not in use.

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1. Install bosses in sole front and back.

2. Drill through base of recliners front and back.

3. Install bolts whenever under way.

Rob

Like so many other things, the answer is harmony. Finding the perfect match of skill, comfort, need, and vessel.

Well said

Datenight said:

1. Install bosses in sole front and back.

2. Drill through base of recliners front and back.

3. Install bolts whenever under way.

Rob

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Great solution but all my furniture is built in so all I have to worry about is flying cushions and things that should have been put away. I put the glass coffee pot in the sink and call it 'done.' I hear things settle in the cabinets and am more that cautious when I open the cabinets where I keep the canned goods or pick them up and put them back in the cabinets. LOL
This coming week's weather will prove my theory.

It's when I read threads similar to this that makes me feel blessed to have grown up on boats of all types.

A small rejoinder to Hippocampus’ statement that “ Most places in the world local weather comes over the land mass then hits the coast except for cyclonal events.”. On the left hand coast, the weather comes off the Pacific Ocean, almost never from the east. The inland waters do get effect from the Olympic Mountains or from Vancouver Island, but the weather predictions are based on the eastern Pacific Ocean conditions.