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Old 11-15-2023, 11:22 AM   #21
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When explained to me by a judge and seemingky many law suits,, unless proven that you clearly understood the waiver and had the opportunity to review and question, they are often not airtight. There's no guarantee you can easily ovrcome every type or all waivers, but seems that they are not as airtight as open and shut. Contracts seem to suffer in the same way as alsi people joke about pre-nuptual agreements.

The judge's favoright example was luggage liability when you traveled by air that was printed on the back of your ticket...and back in the day no one explained that it was there.

Also...even if the waiver is airtight, again in my experience it seems like settlements happen when there shouldn,'t be a need for one.

https://www.vilesandbeckman.com/blog...%20fine%20line.

The Limits of a Release of Liability Waiver

Release of liability waivers cover only ordinary negligence. If a business commits gross negligence or intentional harm, the release of liability waiver is no longer applicable. The difference between ordinary and gross negligence can be a fine line.
Gross negligence is a pretty high bar and is often underpinned by serious misrepresentation or dereliction. Or chronic disregard of duties (such as the famous McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit that resulted in an extreme judgement against McDonald's, later overturned).

But I do agree that normal liability waivers are far from airtight and can be overcome. First, the document itself is interpreted against the party who drafted it. Second, it doesn't absolve the party from taking ordinary care. In a very simple example, let's say you sign a waiver about an apartment complex where you rent. One morning a couple days after a snowstorm, you slip on ice in a common area and get hurt. The apartment complex will immediately wave the liability waiver. But since they didn't take ordinary care to shovel the walks, the waiver means nothing. Expand the example a bit to say there's an area where snowmelt pools and freezes and the apartment manager is aware of many people slipping and falling as a result. The line between negligence and gross negligence has arguably been crossed.

Perhaps the biggest difference between negligence and gross negligence is addition of punitive damages over and above compensatory damages (again, the McDonald's coffee suit).

Peter
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Old 11-15-2023, 06:22 PM   #22
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It's been a while since I took Business Law ( or stayed at a Holiday Inn ) but I believe the concept of duress can be used to make a waiver invalid. If you can't get on the cruise without agreeing to the waiver, after you have saved, planned and paid for it, you are essentially being extorted by the cruise line into signing, and may not feel like you have a choice.
( if anyone with real legal experience disagrees with this, believe them, not me)
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Old 11-16-2023, 02:35 PM   #23
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Sometimes so called "waivers" are only drawn to the customers attention AFTER the contract has been formed. Those are easily disposed of.
Steamguy may be right. A Princess ship is reported to have docked in Adelaide in Australia with both Covid and gastro onboard. Though diarrhea being a concomitant/symptom of Covid, not sure how you`d tell for sure you had both.
Agree Bruce, it would be a toughie to tell them apart - perhaps they would only use one swab - better ask them to do the nose first though.........
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Old 11-16-2023, 02:59 PM   #24
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Agree Bruce, it would be a toughie to tell them apart - perhaps they would only use one swab - better ask them to do the nose first though.........

EEEuuw!
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Old 11-16-2023, 07:40 PM   #25
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Gross negligence is a pretty high bar and is often underpinned by serious misrepresentation or dereliction. Or chronic disregard of duties (such as the famous McDonalds hot coffee lawsuit that resulted in an extreme judgement against McDonald's, later overturned).

But I do agree that normal liability waivers are far from airtight and can be overcome. First, the document itself is interpreted against the party who drafted it. Second, it doesn't absolve the party from taking ordinary care. In a very simple example, let's say you sign a waiver about an apartment complex where you rent. One morning a couple days after a snowstorm, you slip on ice in a common area and get hurt. The apartment complex will immediately wave the liability waiver. But since they didn't take ordinary care to shovel the walks, the waiver means nothing. Expand the example a bit to say there's an area where snowmelt pools and freezes and the apartment manager is aware of many people slipping and falling as a result. The line between negligence and gross negligence has arguably been crossed.

Perhaps the biggest difference between negligence and gross negligence is addition of punitive damages over and above compensatory damages (again, the McDonald's coffee suit).

Peter
The difference between negligence and gross negligence is probably determined by how good or bad the lawyers and expert witnesses are.... the truth and reasonableness are irrelevant....and probably why most cases are settled.
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Old 11-25-2023, 07:06 PM   #26
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Australia is in the grip of another Covid wave,expected to peak around Christmas. We caught it while touring Tasmania(island State to the south of the mainland), either on the overnight Spirit of Tasmania car ferry(which crosses the notoriously rough Bass Strait from mainland to Tassie and vv), or on land in Launceston.
The P&O ship Pacific Adventure, an ex Princess hand down, was refused entry into NZ, not due to covid but due to the bio hazard growing on its hull,and has diverted to Tasmania. Take care while ashore.
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