Can the Cruise Industry survive ?

[O C Diver]

As it`s not a US ship(see B & B`s post)I guess no one here will mind if the Navy get involved. Though I`m thinking it`s a US ship operating under a flag of convenience. Let`s see who gets upset if we aim big guns at it. Eh Donald?

President covered this in his new conference today. Will be talking with the governor of FL and dealing with the ship on a humanitarian basis.

Ted

 

[BruceK]

President covered this in his new conference today. Will be talking with the governor of FL and dealing with the ship on a humanitarian basis.

Ted

I thought that related to the 2 HAL ships, Zaandam and Rotterdam, passing through Panama Canal. Pretty sure Rotterdam is flagged in Rotterdam,Netherlands.

Our immediate concern here is Ruby Princess which keeps unloading sick crew and refusing to leave, though there are others.

And in Western Australia, a German flagged ship has been directed to leave, it docked in Fremantle to resupply with zero Australian pax, and says it doesn`t want to leave for 2 weeks. Mmm, 2 weeks is 14 days is CV quarantine time. Time to depart.

 

[OldDan1943]

Realize, the on board doctor is a passenger working for free passage and may not have the medical credentials one would like.
And yes, the onboard medical facilities may be limited and designed to stabilize a patient until they can reach port or get a qualified "real" doctor onboard.

 

[Art]

Global Societal Evolution – Two Procedures to Expedite and Handle Correctly

Required Worldwide Actions:

1. Overcome Covid-19 pandemic, while keeping global economic conditions in position to regain stability.

2. Massive financial investment to "Save Earth's Ecosystem".

This will create untold numbers of new "green" businesses while expanding many levels of existing enterprises. There will be extensive employment increases leading to land, water and air improvements. This global span endeavor will enable a clean, livable future for humanity.

Love our grandkids! Remainder of my life will be used to help insure their wellbeing. Restoration of planet Earth’s Ecosystem must now begin.

Prosperous decades will become the norm. While creating global betterments for humanity.

 

[BruceK]

Realize, the on board doctor is a passenger working for free passage and may not have the medical credentials one would like.
And yes, the onboard medical facilities may be limited and designed to stabilize a patient until they can reach port or get a qualified "real" doctor onboard.

I doubt any ship`s doctor these days is "working his passage" so to speak.
It`s likely Australia has an obligation to help but it has an obligation to its own people it may not be able to satisfy with or without these extras. Cruise ships have been major deliverers here of sick people they made money from. Take the $, dump the problem. It`s not on, apparently they secreted some pax they were supposed to send home to Germany on special flights. That`s on top of those we had to hospitalize for them. If they want help they ought help us and be upfront about their situation. If not, cut the docklines.

 

[O C Diver]

Global Societal Evolution – Two Procedures to Expedite and Handle Correctly

Required Worldwide Actions:

1. Overcome Covid-19 pandemic, while keeping global economic conditions in position to regain stability.

2. Massive financial investment to "Save Earth's Ecosystem".

This will create untold numbers of new "green" businesses while expanding many levels of existing enterprises. There will be extensive employment increases leading to land, water and air improvements. This global span endeavor will enable a clean, livable future for humanity.

Love our grandkids! Remainder of my life will be used to help insure their wellbeing. Restoration of planet Earth’s Ecosystem must now begin.

Prosperous decades will become the norm. While creating global betterments for humanity.

Does this mean you're planning on recycling (destroying) your boats, cars, gas grill, and anything else that uses fossil fuel?

Ted

 

[Woodland Hills]

The Zandaam loaded pax on March 5 IIRC, long after we all knew how dangerous cruise ships could be. At what point does humanitarian obligation stop in the face of willful misbehavior. If someone jumps into the rapids above a waterfall does the lifeguard have an obligation to die in a useless attempt to save them?

The blame is equally shared between the heartless company and the monumentally stupid passengers.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Global Societal Evolution – Two Procedures to Expedite and Handle Correctly

Required Worldwide Actions:

1. Overcome Covid-19 pandemic, while keeping global economic conditions in position to regain stability.

2. Massive financial investment to "Save Earth's Ecosystem".

This will create untold numbers of new "green" businesses while expanding many levels of existing enterprises. There will be extensive employment increases leading to land, water and air improvements. This global span endeavor will enable a clean, livable future for humanity.

Love our grandkids! Remainder of my life will be used to help insure their wellbeing. Restoration of planet Earth’s Ecosystem must now begin.

Prosperous decades will become the norm. While creating global betterments for humanity.

Yeah, well neither of those will ever happen. We will just go back to doing what we were before, only more so. Witness the US administration lowering the auto fuel economy standards and raising the emissions limits while everyone is distracted by the virus.

If you expect people to become better, more caring individuals in response to this disaster you don’t know much about the human race.

 

[OldDan1943]

TEASE
I sure am glad my steam driven boat uses a wood fired boiler. Everything is renewable.... the wood hull burned in the boiler, the boiler water, the exhaust steam and, when I clean out the ashes, I can take them to a local nursery to incorporate into the soil. All the copper wire can be recycled.... and when the boat sinks, the engine and boiler, piping etc can be retrieved and used again when I build a new wooden boat.

Sure recycle.... but there is a level of inconvenience no one will tolerate. And then the decreasing return....
I know of one city that requires all tin cans, plastic etc be almost washed clean....
Of course,, the city makes no allowances for the additional water an individual uses trying to satisfy the ordinance.

I live in a county that provides blue containers for the recyclables and green containers for the non-recycles.... Sounds all well and good until trash day and both containers are dumped into the same truck. Why? Perhaps, cost of fuel to make a second trip or maybe more required maintenance on the trucks, making the second run.
Then, the third world.... they dont care or cant afford to care.
In some western states, no longer can you have a fire in your fire place or BBQ outside because of the smoke pollution.

We all went through this in the 60s.....

Folks, sure do what you can, reasonably.

Okay, I'm done. I shall relinquish my soap box to someone else.
Allow me a closing comment, as a retired professional forester, control burns/prescribed is the least expensive way to prevent wild fires.
Okay, I'm done. Remember, dont poke the sleeping lion.

 

[catalinajack]

Create untold numbers of new businesses and jobs? Perhaps. But, here's a question. Where will all these millions of workers come from now that we, at least were, at full employment? Bernie talked about what, 20 million new jobs altogether? Can't happen given our demographics. We either need more immigration or younger folks occupying their new-found free time during the lockdowns making whoopie bigtime. Come to think about it, there will probably be a mini baby boom in nine months.

Global Societal Evolution – Two Procedures to Expedite and Handle Correctly

Required Worldwide Actions:

1.Overcome Covid-19 pandemic, while keeping global economic conditions in position to regain stability.

2.Massive financial investment to "Save Earth's Ecosystem".

This will create untold numbers of new "green" businesses while expanding many levels of existing enterprises. There will be extensive employment increases leading to land, water and air improvements. This global span endeavor will enable a clean, livable future for humanity.

Love our grandkids! Remainder of my life will be used to help insure their wellbeing. Restoration of planet Earth’s Ecosystem must now begin.

Prosperous decades will become the norm. While creating global betterments for humanity.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Realize, the on board doctor is a passenger working for free passage and may not have the medical credentials one would like.
And yes, the onboard medical facilities may be limited and designed to stabilize a patient until they can reach port or get a qualified "real" doctor onboard.

Your post made me curious. So, I googled "Cruise ship medical staff" and found Medical Services for the Carnival Line. Medical services likely won't meet the level of care that can be found ashore but it's a far cry from asking a passenger to serve as ship's Dr. I'd have to say that given the total number of pax + crew they are understaffed to handle anything like what they're dealing with now.

Snippets from the web page:

While at sea or in port, the availability of medical care may be limited.

And

Medical staffing is correlated to the size of the ship and varies from one physician and three nurses to as many as two physicians and five nurses.Medical staffing is correlated to the size of the ship and varies from one physician and three nurses to as many as two physicians and five nurses.

 

[Portage_Bay]

There's no good way out of this Cap

The Ruby Princess disembarkation debacle in Sydney continues. 440 infections identified so far, and 5 deaths. The ship has been directed to leave Australian waters and refuses to comply,citing their need to rely on our medical facilities in the event of need. Having twice unloaded 3 infected crew,I infer there are more crew cases onboard they are trying to manage and which they will dump on Australia if the need arises, who we will of course treat in accordance with our duty.
440 infected cases is 10% of our national diagnosed cases. It is a disgraceful episode, no way to thank Australia for the profits the ships have made from our citizens. They are US ships,the USA should step in to make them safe and repatriate the unfortunate crews. When this is over Australians will remember what happened when they sit down to choose a holiday.

I've been thinking about this. I have no love for the cruise ship industry and no respect for the way they continued business as usual into the face of the pandemic.

That said I've tried to put myself in the captain's shoes. A ship with the corona virus and resultant covid-19 disease running wild. Thousands of pax and crew in a confined area passing the virus among themselves. As captain with my pax and crew's safety and well being at the top of my priorities I'd have to deal with the 'now', not the 'how did I get here'. I'd feel a compelling need to get the sick ashore for treatment and the uninfected away from the sick to preserve their health. I too would refuse to take my ship back out to sea with the virus and disease uncontrolled.

To put it on a personal level I can imagine being out on an extended cruise, something I do as often as I can, with my spouse and two more family or close friends, for a total of 4 aboard. One starts showing serious symptoms and I head for the nearest port only to be turned away. At first I stand off but then the victim's signs progress to full blown covid-19 including extreme difficulty breathing. I now have two choices

A: Anchor out and watch the victim die and wait for the other 3 of us to become ill?

B: Break the ports orders and head in then refuse to leave?

I have no doubt I'd choose B. And wait 14 days to see how the rest of us fare.

Regarding the title of this post 'There's no good way out of this Cap' I'm reminded of a class room exercise in Bridge Resource Management training where each of us was asked to tell of a time when stress levels hit a maximum. One class mate said "The time the phone in my room rang while I was asleep and the first words the watch spoke were 'There's no good way out of this Cap' " Really, that's where the master of the Ruby Princess is. And from the other side of the dock for the port captain who had tried to turn the ship away and it now sits at his dock discharging the sick and asymptomatic pax 'There's no good way out of this cap'.

The above reasoning doesn't mean I absolve the cruise line of financial responsibility to help the community the ship docked in. More than that, to do everything they can possibly do to ease the strain of the community's medical system. Including but not limited to procuring and delivering medical supplies. Nor do I let the captain off the hook for sailing with a full ship into the teeth of the pandemic.

 

[OldDan1943]

Portage Bay, I guess the port captain can start by refusing all port services including a pilot and dock side personnel, preventing the ship from entering????
Officially, the ship NEED permission to enter port and tie to a pier. I guess without it, someone can push the ship away from the pier. A ship w/o a pilot and or tugs on standby is beyond stupid. And any damage to the pier will be the ship's owner problem. Oh you want to leave now? Bring CASH to cover all damages to the pier plus 20% to cover 'undiscovered' damage', with the understanding, the unused portion will be returned 60 days after all repairs are completed and passing all inspections. The port authority can arrest the boat but that leave all the passenger and crew stuck onboard.

Cant put ship's personnel on the dock for line handling because the ship has not cleared customs. Arrest any of the crew leaving the ship, soon the ship will run out of crew. LOL Plus, using non-union members? Whoa mama, fist fight on the pier LOL
Require the Captain report to customs with all passports physically in hand.
Oh there are a lot more ways to make the cruise ship VERY uncomfortable while thinking about or trying to enter port.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Portage Bay, I guess the port captain can start by refusing all port services including a pilot and dock side personnel, preventing the ship from entering????
Officially, the ship NEED permission to enter port and tie to a pier. I guess without it, someone can push the ship away from the pier. A ship w/o a pilot and or tugs on standby is beyond stupid. And any damage to the pier will be the ship's owner problem. Oh you want to leave now? Bring CASH to cover all damages to the pier plus 20% to cover 'undiscovered' damage', with the understanding, the unused portion will be returned 60 days after all repairs are completed and passing all inspections. The port authority can arrest the boat but that leave all the passenger and crew stuck onboard.

Cant put ship's personnel on the dock for line handling because the ship has not cleared customs. Arrest any of the crew leaving the ship, soon the ship will run out of crew. LOL Plus, using non-union members? Whoa mama, fist fight on the pier LOL
Require the Captain report to customs with all passports physically in hand.
Oh there are a lot more ways to make the cruise ship VERY uncomfortable while thinking about or trying to enter port.

I wasn't talking about how the Port Captain can refuse entry or the immediate consequences of bringing the ship in. Of course the Port Captain has the authority and responsibility to do so. And yeah, tangling with union line handlers, well I learned that lesson the hard way.



I was responding to BruceK's post #386 where Ruby Princess is already at the dock refusing to leave. I was trying to see it from the Ruby's Captain's side and why I would likely have made the same decision.

 

[Art]

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These global based industries, empowering thousands of assorted periphery business creations and expansions, will create many millions of new employment positions. 21st Century opportunity booms will greatly uplift civilization.

If you would like to learn about my corporation, regarding Full-Cycle Carbon Neutral fuels, please PM me. I will be happy to give you my website address.

Be safe. Stay healthy. During this pandemic that will eventually become only visible in the rear view mirror of world-human history.

Cheers!

Art

 

[Woodland Hills]

The passengers on the Zaandam boarded on March 7 weeks after the Diamond Princess was quarantined in Yokohama. In fact it was the very next day on March 8 that she docked in Oakland and began unloading sick passengers and crew. It was sheer stupidity on the part of the passengers to start the cruise and criminal negligence for the cruise line to permit them onboard.

If these people have a death wish then we should allow them to fulfill it. Let them take responsibility for their actions and do not let them take up ICU beds and ventilators that could save the lives of those who are ill through no fault of their own. These idiots are 100% to blame for their predicament.

How would you react if your child or your wife was denied access to a respirator because some moron from the Zaandam was using it? When your loved one had done everything possible to avoid the virus and was then left to die to save someone who had done everything possible to get it?

If Trump wants to let them ashore then let them turn Mar-a-Lago into a free clinic for them

 

[BandB]

https://www.local10.com/news/local/...-plan-for-2-ships-to-come-to-port-everglades/

This is an update on the two Holland America Ships wanting to come to Fort Lauderdale and the title of the article is "Officials Reject Carnival's Entry Plan for 2 ships to come to Port Everglade."

I'd add the words "for the moment" as what has been happening, and there have been many ships to come in, is the ships are required to anchor, critical patients are brought to shore and a gradual plan for the other passengers including testing and quarantine is developed.

Issues are compounded because of the many nationalities and people wanting to get home. On this ship there are 311 Americans, 248 Canadians, 232 British, 141 Australians, 104 French and passengers from a total of 14 countries. While the Cruise company promises to fly them home on charters, once they leave the boat, control is relinquished and in the past passengers who promised to quarantine did not do so. There have already been several lives lost on these ships and first priority will be getting those in need to hospitals.

Passengers get very upset that they have to stay aboard the ship for an extended time, but they've all been exposed to Covid 19 and all need to be tested and quarantined.

And, again, who put them in this situation and who put us in the situation of having to deal with it, the Cruise Lines. South Florida, just the three counties, just topped 4000 cases diagnosed and 35 deaths. We have 58% of all Florida cases and 40% of the state's deaths. Just South Florida would rank in the top ten states in the US in number of cases, if it were a state.

Right now there are 3 cruise ships docked in Port Everglades and 3 holding outside or anchored in Port Everglades anchorage. Miami has 6 docked plus 6 holding or anchored outside. Plus still at least 20 now in various Bahamas locations.

What I find most disgusting is that we are now months into this, not days, not weeks and ships are still arriving. People are still stuck and going through hell on those ships.

 

[Woodland Hills]

What I find disgusting is that selfish people were still boarding cruise ships a month after it was obvious it was a very bad idea. It was not the cruise lines that came and forced them to board: the Zaandam left from Chile IIRC, that meant that hundreds of people had to fly thousands of miles to meet that ship. This was a personal decision by those individuals to disregard common sense a month after that ship was quarantined in Yokohama.

Why are they coming to the US anyway? Shouldn’t they be going to Liberia, Panama or the Bahamas where the ships are registered? Or the Caymans where their businesses are located? What connection do they have with America? The ships are foreign, the crew is foreign and most of the passengers are foreign. Why come here?

 

[Northern Spy]

The lesson of the MS St. Louis still evades us.

 

[OldDan1943]

Woodland, "The ships are foreign, the crew is foreign and most of the passengers are foreign. Why come here?"

Perhaps because we have a very open health care system and a good judicial process.
Attempt to deport them, they will sue to stay here.
This is the time to clear the prisons of all the illegals ..... Make room for other "visitors". Maybe turn them into temp hospitals???
Today, it was pointed out, even if we reopen all the shuttered hospitals, we dont have the doctors and nurses to staff them all, properly.

Meanwhile, while we are fighting the spread of this disease, the US Navy and USCG and LEOs has taken the drastic step to eliminate (again) the drug smuggling, into the US. The US has moved rather large warships south.... destroyers and cruisers.
We know some if not all of them will be infected with the virus. We sure do not want them on US soil. That leaves us but a few options, off-load the drugs and steam away or repatriate them. We know the cartel does give a crap about the US Citizens other than to feed and create new user.
Yes, I do sort of feel sorry for most the the smuggling crew but, at some point we have to declare, enough is enough. Perhaps we need to reevaluate our "good guy" position.

 

[BandB]

Coming to the US because they sail from the US and have more people from the US aboard than any other country with Canada second. Port Everglades is their primary port and it was the destination of the cruise.

 

[OldDan1943]

Coming to the US because they sail from the US and have more people from the US aboard than any other country with Canada second. Port Everglades is their primary port and it was the destination of the cruise.

Bummer, I must have done something wrong because I picked up the cruise ship in Turkey. LOL

 

[BruceK]

I was probably a bit harsh on Ruby Princess, but the cruise ship problem here is enormous. At a time when we are significantly reducing the transmission rate through strong general compliance(there are exceptions) with lockdown, we now have to helicopter medical staff to the 8 or 9 cruise ships off Sydney to test every one of around 9000 people onboard with a view to treating or quarantining them. 9000 is about double our nationwide infection numbers so it is very significant and has the potential to immediately overwhelm our facilities. It`s likely there will be a significant infection rate on these ships. It`s a major demand on our medical staff, our security staff, our stock of test kits,our hospitals, and our community. Maybe New Zealand will help us, I don`t see any other help forthcoming.
I know USA is a facing a huge disaster and 240,000 deaths as announced by the President who finally seems to understand, far too late. Our problem is of way less magnitude but it`s in a population of under 25 million. I think we have a duty to help the ships, but it`s an unnerving prospect which may derail our efforts to protect ourselves. There are 3 more ships in Western Australia in similar trouble. Who crews these ships after we remove all the crews? Do they lie at anchor harbouring infection minimally crewed or not at all, until some shipping disaster ensues?
We live in interesting times. I hope we continue to live, whatever the times.

 

[Insequent]

Bruce
I'm not sure that you were too harsh. Cruise ships are exploiting us. They have been exploiting lots of other people and things by using flags of convenience, and hopefully that will change in the future. Hopefully.

We should help them, but that help does not have to be, and should not be, free. Apart from the monetary cost there is potentially increased infection in addition to use of scarce resources as you note.

I would like the ownership title of these cruise ships to be put up as security/collateral for the full costs of assistance provided to them. As it is, they might promise to pay but afterwards we would be likely to find that the ships are owned by a different entity than the cruise operator, and the operators will be bankrupt. And we will be left with the cost, as well as the consequence of dealing with their sick crew and remaining passengers, if any. How many of the ships might decide to depart if the ship itself was at risk from a financial perspective?

Oh, and now would be a good time to send cruise ships captains 'Hygiene 101' or 'Hygiene for Dummies'. With many of the ships down to mostly just crew there ought to be adequate cabin capacity to effectively quarantine those infected, and do their own 'flatten the curve' actions.

 

[OldDan1943]

And here is the latest update concerning the cruise ships and their desire to dock.

Good luck and enjoy your extended cruise.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coast-guard-cruise-ships-must-122752320.html

 

[Andy G]

Why are they coming to the US anyway? Shouldn’t they be going to Liberia, Panama or the Bahamas where the ships are registered? Or the Caymans where their businesses are located? What connection do they have with America? The ships are foreign, the crew is foreign and most of the passengers are foreign. Why come here?

This got me to wondering just who owns these ships. This is what I found via Wikipedia.

Carnival Corporation & plc is a British-American cruise operator, currently the world's largest travel leisure company.Carnival Corporation is listed on the New York Stock Exchange and Carnival plc is listed on the London Stock Exchange. As such, Carnival is the only company in the world to be included in both the S&P 500 and FTSE 100 indices.

The US entity Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama, and its operational headquarters are located in the city of Doral, Florida. The UK entity Carnival plc is based in Southampton.

A hybrid entity indeed. Which jurisdiction do they answer to, I wonder.

 

[BruceK]

Why are they coming to the US anyway? Shouldn’t they be going to Liberia, Panama or the Bahamas where the ships are registered? Or the Caymans where their businesses are located? What connection do they have with America? The ships are foreign, the crew is foreign and most of the passengers are foreign. Why come here?

This got me to wondering just who owns these ships. This is what I found via Wikipedia.

Carnival Corporation & plc is a British-American cruise operator, currently the world's largest travel leisure company.Carnival Corporation is listed on the New York Stock Exchange and Carnival plc is listed on the London Stock Exchange. As such, Carnival is the only company in the world to be included in both the S&P 500 and FTSE 100 indices.

The US entity Carnival Corporation is incorporated in Panama, and its operational headquarters are located in the city of Doral, Florida. The UK entity Carnival plc is based in Southampton.

A hybrid entity indeed. Which jurisdiction do they answer to, I wonder.

Ignore the flags and hailing ports, they are mere flags and places of convenience.

 

[Insequent]

Ignore the flags and hailing ports, they are mere flags and places of convenience.

I believe they are more than that. They appear to be ways and means of avoiding paying tax, and avoiding compliance with workplace health & safety regulations in the markets they are profiting from.

 

[OldDan1943]

I believe they are more than that. They appear to be ways and means of avoiding paying tax, and avoiding compliance with workplace health & safety regulations in the markets they are profiting from.

Nailed it.

But, the USCG can still declare 'unsafe voyage' and make the ship return to port or refusing the ship permission to leave.
Plus, the foreign flagged ships can still be arrested.

 

[O C Diver]

I think the solution going forward is quite simple. Foreign flagged vessels carrying more than 100 passengers will need to carry insurance for passenger health just as they must for hull liability. Million dollars per passenger, no self insuring, sounds about right.

Ted