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Old 07-09-2020, 08:39 AM   #321
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Ha, I'm glad you asked! I was very concerned about this because aluminum is a VERY good conductor of noise. WINGSPAN measures an average of 75 db at 2000 to 2300 rpm with doors closed (It doesn't really go much higher when doors are open). I haven't measured it at 8 knots, but it would be materially quieter. If you are interested I can take that measurement this weekend.



I was very concerned about noise and we took a lot of measures right from the start to keep noise in check. You can spend a large amount of money on noise mitigation and I didn't want to do that (I'm really really cheap).



Starting from the design phase, I put the engines completely under the cockpit deck. The forward bulkhead of the engine bays is watertight (noise seeks out air gaps) and we insulated the entire bay with Sounddown to help capture noise bouncing around the engine bays. One problem, the original builder did a poor job of affixing the insulation in a number of areas and I suspect much of it will have to come down because it's only held by tape in the area over the tunnel. But because of the location of that insulation, I suspect it won't have a major impact on noise in the cabin. If it does, I'll figure out how to mechanically reattach it. However, the builder who finished the boat reattached the Sounddown where necessary in the main portion of the engine bays so most of that is very solid. I originally wanted the watertight bulkhead not to overlap the cabin sole, but the NA couldn't physically make that happen with the length limitations I gave him, so the compromise is we now a little overlap; which means the forward couple of feet of the engine bay extends below the sole at the aft couple feet of cabin. To help overcome that, we added 1 pound psf mass loaded vinyl under the vinyl flooring in the cabin and the flooring itself was a commercial product selected because it helps trap airborne noise. I've also added a couple soft rugs to help capture airborne noise - if those help, it's probably not noticeable without equipment.



My 28' lobsterboat with 110hp Yanmar measured at 80 db at cruising speed of 13 knots and WINGSPAN's 75 db at 17 knots sounds materially quieter. You wouldn't think 5 db was a big difference, but you can carry on a conversation at 17 knots without losing your voice. Frankly, I'm pretty satisfied with how that came out. I have not been in rough enough conditions to assess how bad the wave slap on the tunnel will be. I suspect it will be unnerving.

Wow. 75db seems very respectable. Back when I was trying to quiet down my Genset that sits right under my feet basically, I was getting 88db readings! Like I said, my boat is pretty noisy.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:00 AM   #322
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When I saw the reference to VHB tape I assumed it would be used to hold the metal clips. I agree that tape to foam isn't a good idea.
Ah, you could be right and it would probably work well for that purpose. I probably misunderstood.

Although VHB seems to suffer from the same problem as 5200 - you have to have some clamping pressure and be able to get to access the area.
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Old 07-09-2020, 09:15 PM   #323
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When I saw the reference to VHB tape I assumed it would be used to hold the metal clips. I agree that tape to foam isn't a good idea.

My Soundown is held in place by large fender washers with screws through them and into the wooden underside of the sole. I realise you don't have wood, hence the clips. Once those are reliably fixed in place then you will have options for something with a decent amount of surface area to spread the weight of the Soundown out, beyond high point load failure conditions.
Sorry, yes I mean the VHB for alum clip/bracket holding to the hull, then continue with however is best to hold the sound material to the clip/bracket, exactly as you've said. You can afford to have quite a few per panel then if you are worried about the VHB holding the weight. I certainly was, but further reading suggests it will have more than enough holding power with a small piece on its own, let alone what I was thinking!

I'm thinking of VHB in lots of places too: our strongall aluminium build has almost no stringers, bulkheads or even gussets, so there is nowhere to hold up wiring and pipe runs. I'm hoping the VHB can help with attaching brackets instead of welding. Given how hard welding is to 12mm aluminium due to heat dissipation, I'm hoping VHB is my lifesaver in lots and lots of situations! Post-covid I can report back...
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:09 AM   #324
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Sorry, yes I mean the VHB for alum clip/bracket holding to the hull, then continue with however is best to hold the sound material to the clip/bracket...

I'm hoping VHB is my lifesaver in lots and lots of situations! Post-covid I can report back...
Sorry, I misunderstood. Please, let us know how it works and what you used it for. It's a product I was totally unaware of.
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Old 07-23-2020, 04:53 PM   #325
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More progress on our project. Engines gi in next week. Starting to look like something now. Still a ways to go though.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:56 AM   #326
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Good news, Larmex! It's interesting how different our construction sequence is. Stay on top of 'em and don't cut them any slack on making progress. I think my biggest mistake was to assume everyone was working in good faith - I exhibited too much patience with BS and people not answering my questions. In hindsite, I believe my patience and courtesy was used against me.

I'm looking forward to seeing some details of your electrical and mechanical installation.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:13 AM   #327
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Hey BK, Engines went in a few days ago, shafting is next. They are happy to do a live FaceTime tour at my request, but for the most part still shots are fine. Wiring will be interesting and inside finishing/carpentry as well. They are getting a lot of new business and are trying to finish up current projects asap. Canít remember if you had a fire suppression system in the engine rooms. It is something that I overlooked. Do you recall the ER sq footage (if you did install a system)?

I trust that you are having a great summer on Wingspan? She is a beauty.
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Old 07-28-2020, 10:10 AM   #328
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That's all good to hear. I do have an ER fire suppression system (Fireboy). It was the last thing I chose to install and the first thing I'd cut if money was an issue. I think they are a marginal value but I don't love them. I mostly dislike the idea that the engines will shut down without my permission if they trigger.

I don't think I ever got my engine bay square footage. I spec'ed a fire suppression system and they originally installed one bottle in one engine bay and said "that meets specs". When I questioned how a fire in the starboard bay would trigger the bottle that was located in the port bay I just got a deer in the headlights look. They also didn't have an engine shut down system included (which is required by Fireboy).

When my new builder took over I had them correct this with a second bottle and sensor in the starboard bay along with the required shut down system. One thing they couldn't do that you might be able to figure out - have two shut down systems, one tied to each bottle, so if port bottle triggers it only shuts down port engine. You can then decide whether to trigger the starboard bottle manually if you feel its warranted.

To me, that's an ideal compromise that allows you to maintain maneuverability if there were a fire in one engine bay.

And yes, having a good summer. Unfortunately, I got her home after it became too hot to cruise, so it's been day trips only. But I've got her set up to single hand so I've been out regularly. Just waiting for it to cool down now.
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:16 PM   #329
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They are looking at two free standing systems with auto shut down and a manual override. I haven’t seen a price yet but it sounds costly. I once had a slow leak in a canister shut down both engines in 10’ seas. Never want to go there again. Thanks for your input. I value your opinions!
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:42 AM   #330
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Sometimes I scratch my head on how necessary those system are in boats like ours. I'm sure someone will make valid points to the contrary - but our hulls are not going to melt out from under us, and that puts us in a completely different risk category. Your engine and electrical will be in a space with no significant flammables (with the possible exception of some insulation), your fuel tanks are in a separate watertight area, and you will probably have fuel shutoffs on each side of the watertight bulkhead. So how much additional safety does a Fireboy system provide vs ports that allow you to shoot in chemical extinguisher from a hand held?

If money is not a big object, it's certainly a safer choice to have one. But...

It sounds like you already have experience with them, so you know what you're getting into. Besides, my wife would point out that I'm worth more dead than alive...
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Old 10-23-2020, 03:02 PM   #331
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So now that you have had the boat for some time, how are you enjoying it?
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:47 PM   #332
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In hindsite, I believe my patience and courtesy was used against me.

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So now that you have had the boat for some time, how are you enjoying it?
Yes, inquiring minds want to know, Bkay! How are you and your family doing, and have you been able to enjoy your fabulous vessel much?


Our boat has been on the hard under a big roof, with a Danby dehumidifier keeping her cabin and stateroom nice and dry, since March. We've been running the outboards once a month, and they still start right up and purr. We are hoping to take a short cruise soon, perhaps for a week, as soon as it cools down a bit more here.


And Lordy, your comment about your patience and courtesy being used against you... really brought back "grrrr" memories of our boat build.

For a long time, I thought that I needed to quit being courteous and patient, because, well, look where it got me.

But in the past year, it seems as if courtesy and patience are fraying all around us at a time when they are most needed. So I resolved to be even more courteous and patient.

Plus, I was raised to be that way, and I imagine you were, too. It's ingrained in us. So now I think, just take the lesson learned and keep it in the back of my mind moving forward. Because the vast majority of people are good.

Cheers and Stay Safe,
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:38 AM   #333
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So now that you have had the boat for some time, how are you enjoying it?
Thanks for asking! I've got to separate my opinions between my disgust for the original builder (who I could not think less of) and for the boat. Just focusing on the boat - so far all of the construction shortcomings are things that I've been able to address one-by-one with the careful application of heat and money. I've not found anything that couldn't be addressed and simply chalked up to "warranty issues" (although, there is no one around to honor the warranty).

I'm happy with the design and most of my equipment choices. Layout has been very well received - my wife is not a boater and she gave me the best compliment "it's not as bad as I expected it would be". And I've been very pleased with handling, particularly close quarters maneuvering.

Engines are broken in and not yet broken, so I guess that's good. In hindsight, I might have opted for cheaper Yanmars over the John Deeres. Especially since I understand the original builder never fully paid for the engines although I paid him - that left me with a much higher pucker factor over how to get the engine sea trialed and warrantied (although I was able to eventually work it out more or less). But at least I know the engines will outlast me. But at my age, a quart of milk might outlast me.

I do find the additional wetted surface area of a catamaran makes keeping a clean bottom a lot more critical than on my traditional downeast hulls. It seems like a little bit of fuzz on the bottom makes a much greater impact than on a built-down workboat hull of similar length. With a dirty bottom, I easily loose several knots of cruising speed and I drop below 1 NMPG when I'm in the teens.

Overall, I certainly wouldn't do it again, and there's no one in North Carolina I'd want to build me a boat. But I do appreciate a steady platform with robust commercial construction and commercial grade engines. As with any boat, there are bugs to be worked out. But running around yesterday on a cold, foggy afternoon in a toasty warm pilothouse and a comfortable displacement speed made me smile. (Regarding the photo - Tiffany Yachts didn't build my boat - I hold the guys at Tiffany in high regard. That just happened to be the only picture I took when the fog started rolling in.)

Best of luck Miz Trom. Post Construction Stress Disorder is real. As they say in the military - if you find yourself in a swamp, don't focus on how you got there, figure out how your going to get out.
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:26 PM   #334
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An interesting boat that sure looks like it can get it done.
Interesting on how boatbuilders vary by region. I'm in the PNW and there are probably 6 aluminum boatbuilders that I'd trust within an hour of me. It's the favored material for all the small boat commercial fisheries in WA, BC and AK
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:21 AM   #335
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Yes, inquiring minds want to know, Bkay! How are you and your family doing, and have you been able to enjoy your fabulous vessel much?


For a long time, I thought that I needed to quit being courteous and patient, because, well, look where it got me.
Thanks Miz Tromb, we are doing fine. I know what you've been through and I hope your doing OK as well.

I have to admit, coming from a career in Special Operations, I subscribe to GEN Mattis' philosophy of "be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet".

Well, maybe I don't take that last part literally, but I did sense something was wrong pretty early in the process and started recording (where legal) all my conversations with the owner and the representatives of the company so there can be no doubt who made what representations and when. I may never use those recordings, but old habits die hard.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:23 AM   #336
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Interesting on how boatbuilders vary by region. I'm in the PNW and there are probably 6 aluminum boatbuilders that I'd trust within an hour of me. It's the favored material for all the small boat commercial fisheries in WA, BC and AK
Yes, it's funny how regional different construction materials can be. I had a hard time finding aluminum builders on the East coast and I get a lot of funny looks here. I'd blend right in on the West coast.
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:10 PM   #337
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Yes, it's funny how regional different construction materials can be. I had a hard time finding aluminum builders on the East coast and I get a lot of funny looks here. I'd blend right in on the West coast.
I'm not sure that boat would blend in anywhere, that was meant as a compliment.
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Old 10-28-2020, 06:00 PM   #338
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As some of us have discovered the path of custom boat production is not one that should be taken by the faint of heart. Even the best builders have huge challenges and rarely, if ever, hit their deadlines. My project is 13 months into a 6 month build. Even with a 3 month Covid closure doesnít come close to covering the delay. Just hoe it is I guess........
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Old 10-29-2020, 07:03 AM   #339
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As some of us have discovered the path of custom boat production is not one that should be taken by the faint of heart...
That's a true statement! I think I got spoiled having a wooden boat built in Maine. Everyone I dealt with up there seemed to be an artist with integrity and a concern for their reputation. I didn't find anything like that in the workboat world.

Although I met a couple solid welders in NC who now have their own mobile welding service. They are the only guys down there that I'd do business with in the future. If anyone needs aluminum or steel welding in NC, let me know and I can put you in touch with them.

Hang in there Larmex. I've got my fingers crossed they get you squared away in short order!
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