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Old 06-30-2017, 02:26 PM   #81
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Wow.

Good they are standing behind their work. Hopefully hat will continue as it becomes clear how much this is going to cost them. I'll bet the other mechanic is looking for a job.

I would check carefully on the heritage of any replacement engine. How many hours on the existing engine? Perhaps even push for a factory reman?

And at some point it's probably worth capturing in writing that this is all in them. I have usually done that in simple email exchanges which gives an excellent written record. It's also a good way to document everything as it transpires, and is less hostile that asking for a separate written statement. As soon as anyone senses people lawyering up, things will likely come to a grinding halt.

Good luck with it all, and I think your constructive attitude will serve you well through this.
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:38 PM   #82
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I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:57 PM   #83
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Well, this is unfortunate...

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I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.

I agree with you that he is rendering more of a guess than a determination with certainty. And I didn't hear if he identified the source of the fuel contamination? But either way it's pretty hard to see blame falling anywhere other than cummins since they are behind both the service and the parts.

Perhaps they have learned that it's better to just deal with problems like this rather than create an angry customer for life, and a boat where they get called back for everything that goes wrong with blame placed on the original issue.

And internally, the service manager can blame it on the mechanic whom has likely been fired, and let the whole event fade into the corporate cloud as an unfortunate accident.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:16 PM   #84
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In many respects you're lucky that you are dealing with a Corp. and not a locally owned marina. The marina looks at his profit for X period going out the door while the Corp guy is just dealing with a screw up and a customer. He has no personal dollars on the line.

As I said earlier when I had my issues the owner of the marina didn't think I would push it and just walk away. Right about now his insurance company is asking him the hard questions I'm sure. Unless of course he just bit the bullet and repaid my insurance company. Which I somehow doubt.

Keep your fingers crossed, it sounds like it'll work in your favor.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:21 PM   #85
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I used to carry insurance for incidents such as these for my business. Only had to invoke it once in the years I carried it. We had a timing belt tensioner stud fail after a replacement timing belt. That repair was in the order of $15,000.
I'd be surprised if Cummins NW doesn't carry similar insurance.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:56 PM   #86
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It sounds like CNW is going to do right by you. Lets hope so.
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:09 PM   #87
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Dave

Don't like this happening to you.

Sure hope that it all turns out OK in the long run.

Best Luck - my friend!

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Old 06-30-2017, 06:43 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I can't tell....either I am super inpressed he can tell all that from a partial boroscope inspection....or he just is doomsday scenario guessing....and moving on....at least to you benefit.

For an engine that just started to dilute the oil, probably far from WOT during the short occurance and it still had 10 psi oil pressure....I am amazed at the possible damage outlined.

He is the mechanic, but.....usually takes more teardown to pronunce the engine all but dead.

Anyone want a stab at why the jnjectors would be damaged?....or he could see damage in the combustion chamber other than scuffing from less lubricity? That has me scratching my head.


I am thinking the dealer has a swing out rebuild in stock. Swing in the rebuild and get rid of a recurring (possible) headache. Then he takes in the damaged engine and no matter what the original issue, he rebuilds and places it back in his swing out stock.
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:57 PM   #89
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I am thinking the dealer has a swing out rebuild in stock. Swing in the rebuild and get rid of a recurring (possible) headache. Then he takes in the damaged engine and no matter what the original issue, he rebuilds and places it back in his swing out stock.
Quite possible....looking for the quickest solution

Based on expert input on the limited info here, not likely much if any damage was done, but an engine swap might beat a progressive teardown.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:13 PM   #90
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I think easier to drop another in and then rebuild this one and be able to warranty both. If he just came in and took a shortcut in repairing this one, then there would be suspicion that any future problem was a result of all this. To break this one down completely in the boat would take time and might or might not uncover issues.

Smart manufacturers have their own internal lemon law. I knew an outboard motor dealer years ago sold a bass boat and it ran beautifully for about an hour and a half, then about 25% throttle was it's max. It was brought in and every electronic component on the motor checked bad, so all replaced. All checked. Sent back out and same thing happened. Changed all the components again and this time didn't turn it over to the owner but went out and ran it an hour and a half themselves, thinking this was the time and id happened again. At that point they called the manufacturer who said "If your guys can't tell, then we sure don't know. Replace it and send the old one to us so we can try to figure it out." Had they let the bass fisherman try again, that would have really hurt the manufacturer's reputation and the dealer's.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:52 PM   #91
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I would not accept just a head replacement. All the major wear items are in the block.

A borescope exam is not useful for determining wear. It would have to be very close to the cylinder wall to detect glazing or polishing and they don't bend that much unless you have a large access hole. The only sure way is to pull the engine, drop the oil pan, disassemble the rods, and measure. It is safe to assume significant wear resulted from running diluted oil.

It sounds as though they are trying to resolve it so things are going in the right direction.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:00 PM   #92
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This thread should somehow be book marked for the various issues, fine advice (Ski ) and how to handle a bad day.

For those smacking CNW, well, I don't know any employer that hasn't had this kind of hired help issue. Even a one man show. Looks like this one might do the right thing.

Mr. Hays, your every move has been pure class and I don't know how you did it.

Now, book a couple more weeks off, move the PFDs and wine over a few slips and you can sail to the warm waters of DS.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I would check carefully on the heritage of any replacement engine. How many hours on the existing engine? Perhaps even push for a factory reman?

And at some point it's probably worth capturing in writing that this is all in them. I have usually done that in simple email exchanges which gives an excellent written record. It's also a good way to document everything as it transpires, and is less hostile that asking for a separate written statement. As soon as anyone senses people lawyering up, things will likely come to a grinding halt.

Good luck with it all, and I think your constructive attitude will serve you well through this.

The engine they have is a factory reman. Same engine as mine. The email trail is a good idea and they have been very good about it. They send a written estimate before every visit and the last two have clearly shown zero cost. They have been very above board and straightforward through the whole process.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:14 PM   #94
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I used to carry insurance for incidents such as these for my business. Only had to invoke it once in the years I carried it. We had a timing belt tensioner stud fail after a replacement timing belt. That repair was in the order of $15,000.
I'd be surprised if Cummins NW doesn't carry similar insurance.
Bruce

That was my thought as well Bruce. Whether they are insured or not, I think they want this problem to go away with a satisfied long-term customer.

PSneed, I don't know how much he could tell. On 4 of the cylinders there was a LOT of debris on the injectors as well as the top of the cylinder. Also the tops of 4 of the pistons were badly pitted. Not being a mechanic, I don't know the significance of that, but as he looked at each his face got less and less happy and more and more serious.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:16 PM   #95
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It sounds like CNW is going to do right by you. Lets hope so.


They certainly have been trying to do so. I have no qualms about them so far as a company.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:22 PM   #96
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A very unfortunate series of events, a tough experience I hope comes out right in the end, and it will if you end up with a virtually new engine.
I suggest making contemporaneous diary notes of all dealings and conversations with the repairers, just in case the attitude changes. That`s me being cautious, it is sounding positive in terms of them "making good", following the old rule: "if you mess up you fix up".
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:31 PM   #97
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This thread should somehow be book marked for the various issues, fine advice (Ski) and how to handle a bad day.

For those smacking CNW, well, I don't know any employer that hasn't had this kind of hired help issue. Even a one man show. Looks like this one might do the right thing.

Mr. Hays, your every move has been pure class and I don't know how you did it.

Now, book a couple more weeks off, move the PFDs and wine over a few slips and you can sail to the warm waters of DS.
+1

Cummins NW is a large successful organization with business well beyond the marine side. The do lots of business from locations throughout the NW including Alaska. This solid portfolio of various product lines and locations is a key reason Cummins comes so highly recommended.

Have they said what yard and location they prefer?
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:44 PM   #98
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I feel terrible that you are going through this, Dr. H, but the way they are standing behind their work makes me very confident in the Cummins product. I would seriously consider it as a future engine.

How old is your engine in years and hours?
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:07 PM   #99
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Have they said what yard and location they prefer?
They are going to check to see if I can get into Gig Harbor Boatyard. It is close so it makes for an easy tow and is convenient. They are super busy however. Hopefully I will find out on Monday.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:26 PM   #100
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I feel terrible that you are going through this, Dr. H, but the way they are standing behind their work makes me very confident in the Cummins product. I would seriously consider it as a future engine.

How old is your engine in years and hours?
Yeah, I have no qualms about the engine or Cummins NW at this point. The engine is only 7 years old and 1000 hrs. I put 200 hrs on it my first year.
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