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Old 02-27-2020, 04:37 PM   #201
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Not really true....many are regular boaters with better stories than actual performance....
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:33 PM   #202
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Many boats I have handled with tunnels and large keels don't walk sideways well to begin with and maybe not at all in some conditions.


A thruser (stern or bow) in an engine out situation can be a winner too.
Kudos to a good post. On topic. Look forward to more useful posts.
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:16 PM   #203
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We have twins, and it would be so much nicer to have just one engine in the middle for access. It's nothing to do maintenance on the inboard sides of our engines (zinc's etc.), but I curse like a sailor every time I have to wiggle to the outboard sides to do stuff.
For that very reason I generally won't do engine maintenance unless my wife or somebody else is with me -- because I might actually get stuck between the hull and the engine. I'm not huge, but I'm big enough that I have to tightly wedge myself against the hull like a bullet in a rifle barrel to access anything on the outboard sides and I'm not confident I'll always get myself out. I don't want to be tapping on the hull yelling for help, drinking bilge water to survive until somebody walks by. My 11 year old is about 80 lbs. and he already does a great job changing the port engine oil filter for me, outboard side. He comes in very handy and only charges me some Pokemon cards.

(I used to be a commercial diver in a previous life and we did interior pipeline inspections, so tight we just about had to grease our shoulders. The closest I ever came to drowning was the day I squeezed myself into a pipe wearing a Desco mask instead of a helmet because a helmet wouldn't fit into the pipe. About ten feet in my harness got caught on a pipe seam somewhere down around my lower back. I couldn't back out with the harness snagged on the seam, couldn't reach the harness because I couldn't move my arms back there, and then as I was trying to squirm my way free I forced the mask halfway off my face so the mask filled with water and bubbles, and I couldn't move my arms to reach my face to put it back. Only the grace of God got me out of there in time, back down the pipe and past the intake fins. I literally have no memory of how I got out of there, it's a complete blank. One second I was about to drown in that pipe and the next second I was coughing and sputtering at the surface. Alcoholics talk about blackouts, that escape is a blackout for me, like somebody simply deleted those few seconds of video from my life history. I'm not claustrophobic but I'll never forget that feeling and I don't like it. Okay, end of story, back to our regular programming.)
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:20 PM   #204
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I’m the guy that started the thread about bow vs stern thrusters. Wrong title - I should have chosen a more neutral subject line. That being noted, having owned a 44 Tolly with both bow and stern thrusters, maneuvering our current Bayliner 4788 pilothouse with no thrusters, and playing with another 4788 using only the stern thruster (had both) I will venture the following:

1. There is no substitute for honing docking and undocking skills. Practice - including assessing wind and current, setting proper lines, and *managing fender placement - actively if necessary* (assumes at least one crew).

2. Any thruster is a great docking aid when conditions or crew or lack of crew make docking or undocking overly challenging.

3. For the 4788 wind profile, tiny/no keel, and soft bilges the stern thruster is, for practical purposes, as effective as a bow thruster - at least to the extent we tested the proposition.

There isn’t a point to defend and my question was one of simple economics. Would the cost premium of a bow thruster create value in proportion to the extra expense? Assuming a 50%+ premium and based on our admittedly simple empirical testing: No.

I don’t mean to derail this thread any further than it already has been and anyone can feel free to post on my original “vs” thread. Thanks for the references folks. Bye for now. G
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Old 02-27-2020, 06:59 PM   #205
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For that first one, my boat pivots fairly well around the bow with careful use of momentum, so normally I'll rotate the boat into place (pretty much stick the bow where I want it and rotate the stern into place, but with a bit of momentum carrying the boat sideways so it slides into place as I rotate). Basically instead of coming up and just sliding in, I'll come up and make a 180 into the spot if it's tight as I can carry more sideways momentum and need less length that way.

Personally, I wouldn't go for a space quite that tight unless in pretty calm conditions, but I've done spaces slightly bigger without issue.

Getting off a face dock or wall with the wind blowing me on is usually not much of an issue. If it were a tight spot, then I might be wishing for thrusters. But typically I'll just kick the stern out a bit and work my way off (diagonally backwards if needed). If the wind is so strong that a few good blasts of throttle and working quickly isn't enough to do the trick, I'd generally be docked or anchored and waiting for better conditions anyway.

In any of those situations, I think I'd get more use out of a bow thruster than a stern thruster. Having a bow thruster would let me walk the stern over with the engines while using the thruster to keep the boat from pivoting by moving the bow over along with the stern.
You can't pivot a 45' boat into a 50' spot. Sometimes that's the assigned space. I'd never choose it and without bow and stern thrusters, I'd never try it.

In the second scenario by kicking the stern out you're going to be pushing the bow in and may well end up with scraping. Inside a lock your options might be limited.

I've seen a lot of people really struggle and some damage in scenarios like those two.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:24 PM   #206
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You can't pivot a 45' boat into a 50' spot. Sometimes that's the assigned space. I'd never choose it and without bow and stern thrusters, I'd never try it.

In the second scenario by kicking the stern out you're going to be pushing the bow in and may well end up with scraping. Inside a lock your options might be limited.

I've seen a lot of people really struggle and some damage in scenarios like those two.
We've gone into a 42 foot side tie reciprocal slip with our 40 foot single more than a few times.
Our anchor overhanging swim platform of boat in front and our swim platform under bow of boat behind.

You gotta' do what you gotta' to get into free reciprocal docks in the PNW.

When we leave a side tie, the wheel is turned all the way towards the dock and I put it into forward momentary to turn the bow towards the dock and the stern pushed out. Then floor it in reverse momentary and back to forward and back to reverse, forward repeatedly until angled from the dock enough to clear the boat behind.

The bow never touches the dock because of the tapered bow. If wind is pushing us onto the dock then a spring line is used and my wife uses a fender to keep us from hitting the dock and to create a pivot point.

In the locks, definitely several fenders on the bow.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:37 PM   #207
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We've gone into a 42 foot side tie reciprocal slip with our 40 foot single more than a few times.
Our anchor overhanging swim platform of boat in front and our swim platform under bow of boat behind.

You gotta' do what you gotta' to get into free reciprocal docks in the PNW.

When we leave a side tie, the wheel is turned all the way towards the dock and I put it into forward momentary to turn the bow towards the dock and the stern pushed out. Then floor it in reverse momentary and back to forward repeatedly until angled from the dock enough to clear the boat behind.

The bow never touches the dock because of the tapered bow. If wind is pushing us onto the dock then a spring line is used and my wife uses a fender to keep us from hitting the dock and to create a pivot point.

In the locks, definitely several fenders on the bow.
The bow taper is exactly the key to pivoting the stern out.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:56 PM   #208
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The pivot point on most boats is 1/3 back from the bow.
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Old 02-27-2020, 11:16 PM   #209
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On my single, the bow thruster is a God-send. Saves the transmission and helmsman.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:39 PM   #210
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Amazing how many great boat handlers are on TF......yet the shows that go on at every marina......
But, that's those other guys! Not any of us!
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:27 PM   #211
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Don'tcha Know?

Don't ya know?
It's not a Great Debate at all. This whole thing has been foisted upon us by the Russians to sow discord and division, and to cause tears in the social fabric of the USA.


It all started with that whole "Best Anchor" question during the Cold War.


Diabolical, those Russians...
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:15 PM   #212
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I was happy that Sunday afternoon when going north up the St John past Bryant on Fleming Island that I had twins in my 36 GB when one started seriously vibrating. Took it to idle and went home. I really didn’t want to go in the river and see if I got a dinged prop or a crab pot or something else.

As many members have said it’s what you plan to do with the boat. In this boat I want to go up the east coast and down to the Bahamas and maybe fort Jefferson. Not going to Hawaii or across the pond. Done that in large Grey vessels and not what I plan for this one.

Twins are nice for maneuvering without the expense and complexity of thrusters. And I got my first ‘mostly‘ docking with one engine with this boat on Sunday. Glad the wind was calm.

That said for people who are reading this who do not yet have a boat. I Have two comments. Unless money is really no object. 1 Do a budget. Incremental cost on a twin is there and the less you do yourself the bigger it is. On an older used boat figure some rediculous percentage of the cost every year. 20%. 30%? Yeah really

Twin or single spend some quality time in the engine room. Even if you are not going to be changing pistons in a seaway, you MUST check oil and fuel filters every day you get underway. I lust after an engine room with better head room and outboard access every time I go there. If you really can’t fit or don’t want to go there rethink the entire trawler thing. Unless it really is going to be a boatominium and The Who cares about that stuff down there.

Oh another non engine engine failure, the admiral pulls you from the basement after you opened the top of the rancor and before you tightened it back down. And you have a senior moment and get underway.
Boy, I hate those senior moments!
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:38 PM   #213
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Boy, I hate those senior moments!
Welcome aboard, JVCalifornian! Have you got a 38 Californian Sedan in Miami? Was it built by Marshall, Wellcraft or Carver?

Come visit the Californian Section and post some pics of your lady. We love comparing our Californian girls.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s24/
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:42 PM   #214
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We've all had those 'memorable docking events" that we'd rather not remember. (like that time I could have sworn I placed the port engine in neutral before leaving the helm...)

Sh1t happens, but it helps if your boat isn't shiny and perfect. In fact, I call my boat "comfortably imperfect" and that's just fine for me. My attitude is that every mark tells a story...and I remember many of them!
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:09 PM   #215
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Yes sir. We got her little over a year ago. Let me figure out how to load pictures but I will. Mr Marshall’s signature is on the lower helm.
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Old 04-13-2020, 06:56 PM   #216
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It's been written in blood that single is better for a cruising trawler. Marina hoppers may prefer twins. Thought that debate was over centuries ago.
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Old 04-13-2020, 07:24 PM   #217
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It's been written in blood that single is better for a cruising trawler. Marina hoppers may prefer twins. Thought that debate was over centuries ago.
I'll put it this way:

In the beginning there was Adam - a single screw

Then came Eve - another screw

God proved hands down... two screws are better than one!

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Old 04-13-2020, 07:38 PM   #218
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I'll put it this way:

In the beginning there was Adam - a single screw

Then came Eve - another screw

God proved hands down... two screws are better than one!

I am sorry I disagree, there was only one screwing Eve...

(Ok not very elegant I must admit)

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Old 04-13-2020, 07:54 PM   #219
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Anyone with two screws is a lunatic!
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Old 04-13-2020, 11:32 PM   #220
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Anyone with two screws is a lunatic!
It's fun to be e twin screw lunatic!
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