Defever 51 POC - Repower / Rebuild

[Comodave]

The boat in question is a 51 POC, Performance Offshore Cruiser. It is designed to cruise faster than a trawler. If you go with smaller engines you will loose the Performance part of POC. And maybe kill the resale value.

 

[Mambo42]

The boat in question is a 51 POC, Performance Offshore Cruiser. It is designed to cruise faster than a trawler. If you go with smaller engines you will loose the Performance part of POC. And maybe kill the resale value.

You are right, it may kill the resale value and if the speed is indeed important to the owner then the Lehmans are not an option.
However, if he plans to keep the boat for another 10 or 15 years and does not need the speed, it could be an option.
I just threw it in the discussion as an option, although I admit it is an odd option.

 

[henrymei]

I’d consider contacting T& S Marine in Crisfield, Maryland. 8 years ago they rebuilt a pair of 375 3808TA’s for me for about 14k per engine. Less than half of what the CAT folks wanted. They keep the crab boats on the bay running.
It might be worth shipping them out.

 

[Comodave]

You are right, it may kill the resale value and if the speed is indeed important to the owner then the Lehmans are not an option.
However, if he plans to keep the boat for another 10 or 15 years and does not need the speed, it could be an option.
I just threw it in the discussion as an option, although I admit it is an odd option.

I don’t disagree, the Lehmans are a great engine.

 

[King Zarkon]

Not to chase you away, but you might want to check out the DeFever Forum as well:

https://defevercruisers.groups.io/g/Forum

If you post your situation there, odds are pretty good someone will come back who has been through that exact same situation, and you'll get specific information regarding re=powers that worked etc. Best of luck going forward, and Welcome to the forum!

Yes I think I'll sign up there also, but I won't run away

 

[King Zarkon]

I’d consider contacting T& S Marine in Crisfield, Maryland. 8 years ago they rebuilt a pair of 375 3808TA’s for me for about 14k per engine. Less than half of what the CAT folks wanted. They keep the crab boats on the bay running.
It might be worth shipping them out.

That's a long way to ship them, but it might make some sense. I'm in the process of pricing a local rebuild, while comparing some refit options from a pricing point of view.

 

[King Zarkon]

The boat in question is a 51 POC, Performance Offshore Cruiser. It is designed to cruise faster than a trawler. If you go with smaller engines you will loose the Performance part of POC. And maybe kill the resale value.

I had been wondering about this also. I don't want to kill the resale value, even though I have no plans to sell the boat. You never know what life might throw at you.

 

[King Zarkon]

I just did a Google search and found several injection pumps for $2,000.
You may want to check different pump suppliers.

Looks like there are certainly better prices getting something sent up from the US.

 

[King Zarkon]

What @Taras is saying makes great sense, except the OP said this would be his lifetime boat. I don't recall what speed he wanted to be able to achieve, but those heading into retirement with "normal" levels of finances usually find themselves slowing down. If that is the case and he'll be cruising the typical 7-8 knots on his "lifetime" boat then I'd say look into a complete repower using newer more fuel efficient and much, much smaller engines. Power to your use case. Twin mechanical engines running at 50%-70% of their rating, at your desired Vcr, would be a perfect match.

Yes, that's right about on target.

 

[King Zarkon]

For sure, do your due diligence with a mechanic to see where the motors are truly at. With 10,000 hours on them though, they're getting close to end of life which is why I'd be leery to dump much money into them.
What may end up being the solution is to just pick up some rebuilt 3208 Naturals as these would bolt right up to your current tranny. Heres a shop that sells "short block" 3208 N's completely rebuilt for $9000 each. Then you can bolt up the rest of the stuff you need. Maybe the best way to go eventually. Plenty of parts out there for 3208's.......
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2919461264...044&customid=e9cfc91e526d170d55c1ad0074415f65

I've been taking a close look at these as an option... I think there's a lot of reasons it makes sense... future parts availability is scary, or perhaps I'm just manifesting that

 

[King Zarkon]

Boats and engines are designed to work together. If you are going to repower, select engines the closely match the specs of the 3208. Under sizing the power plants to safe money on fuel is asking trouble. You can always run slower and burn less fuel but when you need to get the boat moving you will need the hp and especially the torque to get out of a situation and potentially, harms way. Ask yourself, would you want to negotiate Haul Over Inlet under powered? https://www.google.com/search?q=hau...#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:288075e6,vid:5FL9JlA6NSs

It's not really about undersizing to save fuel, it's about undersizing to potentially improve longevity over a TA motor, and considering whether 375 per side is actually overpowered for this vessel (not saying I have to answer to either of these questions btw)

 

[King Zarkon]

I own a Defever 49, which is roughly the size of your 51. Mine is powered with 2 x Ford Lehman 2715E engines and they deliver about 120 Hp each. Their lifetime should be around 25.000 hours and they are not that expensive. I just bought 2 overhauled blocks for 5000 Euro a piece. Guess you will be able to get them, with gearboxes, coolers and fuelpump for about 10.000 - 12.000 each.
And my guess is they will fit without a problem in your Defever, it might be an option.

This is interesting - are they the stock powerplants? Do you have a semi-displacement hull?

 

[King Zarkon]

You are right, it may kill the resale value and if the speed is indeed important to the owner then the Lehmans are not an option.
However, if he plans to keep the boat for another 10 or 15 years and does not need the speed, it could be an option.
I just threw it in the discussion as an option, although I admit it is an odd option.

It's definitely a balance... 120 hp per side might drop the value, but do I need 375... is there a better middle ground...?

so many questions! HA

I really appreciate everyone's insight here... it's genuinely very helpful

 

[Comodave]

If I were looking for a boat and it had newer smaller engines that would be a plus for me. But maybe not for everyone. In our last boat the aftercoolers are no longer available. I bypassed them to preserve them for some future owner. The guy that bought the boat asked me to hook them back up since he wanted the power so I did. Who knows what it would do to resale value. Maybe just do what works for you and don’t worry about it.

 

[King Zarkon]

If I were looking for a boat and it had newer smaller engines that would be a plus for me. But maybe not for everyone. In our last boat the aftercoolers are no longer available. I bypassed them to preserve them for some future owner. The guy that bought the boat asked me to hook them back up since he wanted the power so I did. Who knows what it would do to resale value. Maybe just do what works for you and don’t worry about it.

Thanks Dave, it's very possible I'm overthinking this

 

[Comodave]

Thanks Dave, it's very possible I'm overthinking this

That is what TF is for…

 

[King Zarkon]

That is what TF is for…

Well then... it's working

 

[thedeltaskipper]

Having almost completed a repower on my 1973 47' Chris-Craft Commander from the original and completely obsolete Cummins VT8-370Ms to the far more popular 1995 3208TAs at 375hp myself I would suggest sticking with what you have. A repower is far more work than most imagine. I have found the two worst parts were:
1) Modification of the engine beds (Cummins and Cat had very different mounting points both in X and Y). In my case this was a measure 30 times, cut once adventure plus custom fabrication work.
2) The peripheral items that need to be changed to accommodate different engines, like fuel lines, control cables, wiring harnesses, battery cables, raw water, exhaust, propeller shafts, propellers. In my case this took considerably more time and cost than expected.

Parts are still available for 3208s as they built piles of them, especially the 375hp 3208TA. I would guess that was the most popular diesel engine option for production boats 35-45' built from about 1985 to 1995.

I also agree with others, as your boat has a planing hull try to keep the power the same if you do repower. While I run my boats at displacement speeds 95% of the time, I sure enjoy having the get up and go when I need or want it and I believe future owners will as well.

Like you I'm in Toronto and I have had no issues getting parts from eBay (via Crossborder Pickups) or directly from Toromont CAT. If need be, don't be afraid to source large parts from wherever you can get them. My repower was an international affair as my 3208TAs came from Long Island, NY and my ZF gears came from San Diego, CA. My old Cummins went to Guyana and I air freighted a set of transmissions to Gibraltar.

If you get to the point of seriously considering having the existing engines rebuilt by T&S, keep in mind they are only a 10.5hr drive away from Toronto - LTL rates should be reasonable or you can deliver them yourself with a car trailer.

 

[King Zarkon]

Having almost completed a repower on my 1973 47' Chris-Craft Commander from the original and completely obsolete Cummins VT8-370Ms to the far more popular 1995 3208TAs at 375hp myself I would suggest sticking with what you have. A repower is far more work than most imagine. I have found the two worst parts were:
1) Modification of the engine beds (Cummins and Cat had very different mounting points both in X and Y). In my case this was a measure 30 times, cut once adventure plus custom fabrication work.
2) The peripheral items that need to be changed to accommodate different engines, like fuel lines, control cables, wiring harnesses, battery cables, raw water, exhaust, propeller shafts, propellers. In my case this took considerably more time and cost than expected.

Parts are still available for 3208s as they built piles of them, especially the 375hp 3208TA. I would guess that was the most popular diesel engine option for production boats 35-45' built from about 1985 to 1995.

I also agree with others, as your boat has a planing hull try to keep the power the same if you do repower. While I run my boats at displacement speeds 95% of the time, I sure enjoy having the get up and go when I need or want it and I believe future owners will as well.

Like you I'm in Toronto and I have had no issues getting parts from eBay (via Crossborder Pickups) or directly from Toromont CAT. If need be, don't be afraid to source large parts from wherever you can get them. My repower was an international affair as my 3208TAs came from Long Island, NY and my ZF gears came from San Diego, CA. My old Cummins went to Guyana and I air freighted a set of transmissions to Gibraltar.

If you get to the point of seriously considering having the existing engines rebuilt by T&S, keep in mind they are only a 10.5hr drive away from Toronto - LTL rates should be reasonable or you can deliver them yourself with a car trailer.

Thanks so much for this comment! Nice to hear a repower example, especially so local, and there were a few points here that I hadn't considered. If you're open to a chat in person the beers would be on me!

 

[rslifkin]

Having almost completed a repower on my 1973 47' Chris-Craft Commander from the original and completely obsolete Cummins VT8-370Ms to the far more popular 1995 3208TAs at 375hp myself I would suggest sticking with what you have. A repower is far more work than most imagine. I have found the two worst parts were:
1) Modification of the engine beds (Cummins and Cat had very different mounting points both in X and Y). In my case this was a measure 30 times, cut once adventure plus custom fabrication work.
2) The peripheral items that need to be changed to accommodate different engines, like fuel lines, control cables, wiring harnesses, battery cables, raw water, exhaust, propeller shafts, propellers. In my case this took considerably more time and cost than expected.

Parts are still available for 3208s as they built piles of them, especially the 375hp 3208TA. I would guess that was the most popular diesel engine option for production boats 35-45' built from about 1985 to 1995.

I also agree with others, as your boat has a planing hull try to keep the power the same if you do repower. While I run my boats at displacement speeds 95% of the time, I sure enjoy having the get up and go when I need or want it and I believe future owners will as well.

Like you I'm in Toronto and I have had no issues getting parts from eBay (via Crossborder Pickups) or directly from Toromont CAT. If need be, don't be afraid to source large parts from wherever you can get them. My repower was an international affair as my 3208TAs came from Long Island, NY and my ZF gears came from San Diego, CA. My old Cummins went to Guyana and I air freighted a set of transmissions to Gibraltar.

If you get to the point of seriously considering having the existing engines rebuilt by T&S, keep in mind they are only a 10.5hr drive away from Toronto - LTL rates should be reasonable or you can deliver them yourself with a car trailer.

You wouldn't happen to have the 47' Commander Yachtfish that I've heard of around the Toronto area, would you? If so, that was definitely a worthwhile boat to repower, as the 47s with the cockpit are nice boats and pretty rare.

 

[thedeltaskipper]

You wouldn't happen to have the 47' Commander Yachtfish that I've heard of around the Toronto area, would you? If so, that was definitely a worthwhile boat to repower, as the 47s with the cockpit are nice boats and pretty rare.

Rob,

No, mine is the standard 3 stateroom flush deck layout. The cockpit would be really nice to have but the third stateroom was my main objective in moving up from my 381.

I know the 47 Yachtfish you are talking about, it was for sale back around 2016. I know the brokers that sold it, I may ask them where it ended up next time we speak. This is the boat you are thinking of?

 

[thedeltaskipper]

Thanks so much for this comment! Nice to hear a repower example, especially so local, and there were a few points here that I hadn't considered. If you're open to a chat in person the beers would be on me!

Sure, we could get together for a beer a phone call or even better I could show you my repower project and walk you through what I have learned about my 3208TAs. Either way, let's exchange contact info via private message.

 

[rslifkin]

Rob,

No, mine is the standard 3 stateroom flush deck layout. The cockpit would be really nice to have but the third stateroom was my main objective in moving up from my 381.

I know the 47 Yachtfish you are talking about, it was for sale back around 2016. I know the brokers that sold it, I may ask them where it ended up next time we speak. This is the boat you are thinking of?

Yup, that looks like the one I was thinking of. I think I heard of it staying somewhere near Toronto, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

The regular 47s are a nice upgrade as well (and that 3rd stateroom is a good candidate for conversion to an office I think, lack of a real working space is one of my 2 biggest complaints with the 381, the other being the gas engines). With how many people either owned or still own a 381, I kinda wonder just how many they actually built. Assuming Chris Craft started at 001 for the hull number in the HIN, that would make mine hull 314.