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Old 06-06-2017, 08:45 AM   #41
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I set up the Barnacle Buster recirculating process for my 270HP 6BTA Cummins. I'll do a recirculating flush every 3-4 years. In between, I use an Acid Magic sit (couple of hours) and flush as part of my annual winterization process. When doing the recirculating flush, don't forget to plug up the feeder hose to any PSS dripless or similar shaft seals.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:07 AM   #42
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Greetings,
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is a MAJOR safety issue to keep foremost in your mind other than wearing the appropriate safety equipment.

Always add ACIDS & BASES (alkali) to water not the other way around!!!

Let's be safe out there please.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:26 AM   #43
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I've seen three different MSDS's for BB, with different values listed. One says "trade secret" for the % concentration.

I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that they sell a very similar-looking "ready mix" (diluted) version, so it's not always clear which product is being discussed.

A published research paper lists BB at "40% - 85%."

One MSDS shows a PH of 0.24, one shows 0.9, and another 1.0. Presumably someone with a Chemistry degree and time to figure out which MSDS is which could deduce the concentration from whichever of those numbers is correct.

Now to the question of damaging rubber hoses and impellers. A little Googling shows that phosphoric acid is stored in rubber-lined tanks. Rubber gloves and aprons are recommended for handling.

I'm not a chemist, or an industrial safety expert. Just a guy with an internet connection and some curiosity. I'm open to any better-informed opinions.
CaptTom,
Thank you for explaining this. I think I'm going to assume the BB concentrate contains 40-50% phosphoric acid and use that baseline information when mixing my own, hopefully simular ready blend
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:28 AM   #44
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CaptTom,
Thank you for explaining this. I think I'm going to assume the BB concentrate contains 40-50% phosphoric acid and use that baseline information when mixing my own, hopefully simular ready blend
Oh well,

Sometimes too much information causes just troubles: I went to a local DIY store to buy phosphoric acid. As I spoke to the sales rep I was informed that if the material in the Volvo Penta heat exchanger is aluminium and copper I should use oxalic acid instead of phosphoric acid.

The reason is, according to the person I spoke to, precious metals such as copper and aluminium will be damaged by phosphoric acid. Hence his recommendation for oxalic acid.

Now this is confusing as we know BB concentrate contains phosphoric acid but we do not now what else is in the mixture. Maybe they have added some chemical to prevent the phosphoric acid to ruin the aluminium and copper of the heat exchanger?

Conclusion: 10% oxalic acid seems to be a very safe choice to clean heat exchangers but do we have any real life experience wether it does the job or not?
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Old 06-07-2017, 05:23 AM   #45
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A decade or more ago ultrasonic cleaning of many types of bi-metal heat cxchangers was found to be viable for dealing with crud buildup in marine after coolers. As noted by your Volvo guy the base metals in the solders and weldments can react in different ways to the variety of acidic chemical cleaners.

BTW, oxalic acid was very commonly used, beginning more than a century ago, to clean car and equipment radiators. Once antifreeze became loaded up with the variety of present day multi task inhibitors, boiling out radiators became much less common.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:03 AM   #46
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Sometimes too much information causes just troubles: I went to a local DIY store to buy phosphoric acid. As I spoke to the sales rep I was informed that if the material in the Volvo Penta heat exchanger is aluminium and copper I should use oxalic acid instead of phosphoric acid.

FWIW, you might look at the make-up of Rydlyme. Its' a different acid, hydrochloric maybe...

I used Rydlyme for some systems once, worked OK. I used BB for different system once, worked OK, too.

I don't see either as a substitute for real periodic off-engine HX or aftercooler (or whatever) raw-water-side service, but Rydlyme did clean out some serious gunk from our genset HX and BB did seem to help raw water flow through the AC systems...

-Chris
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:27 AM   #47
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FWIW, you might look at the make-up of Rydlyme. Its' a different acid, hydrochloric maybe...

I used Rydlyme for some systems once, worked OK. I used BB for different system once, worked OK, too.

I don't see either as a substitute for real periodic off-engine HX or aftercooler (or whatever) raw-water-side service, but Rydlyme did clean out some serious gunk from our genset HX and BB did seem to help raw water flow through the AC systems...

-Chris
Chris,

Thank you very much, I'll have a look at Rydlyme, too.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:04 AM   #48
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Oh well,

Sometimes too much information causes just troubles: I went to a local DIY store to buy phosphoric acid. As I spoke to the sales rep I was informed that if the material in the Volvo Penta heat exchanger is aluminium and copper I should use oxalic acid instead of phosphoric acid.

The reason is, according to the person I spoke to, precious metals such as copper and aluminium will be damaged by phosphoric acid. Hence his recommendation for oxalic acid.

Now this is confusing as we know BB concentrate contains phosphoric acid but we do not now what else is in the mixture. Maybe they have added some chemical to prevent the phosphoric acid to ruin the aluminium and copper of the heat exchanger?

Conclusion: 10% oxalic acid seems to be a very safe choice to clean heat exchangers but do we have any real life experience wether it does the job or not?
Some info I found congerning the appropriate dilution proportions:

8.7 Cleaning in place - SWEP

"...The choice of cleaning solution depends on the problem, but a weak acid is a good start. This could be 5​% phosphoric acid or, if the exchanger is cleaned frequently, 5% oxalic acid. The cleaning liquid should be pumped through the exchanger. For optimal cleaning, the flow rate of the cleaning solution should be at least 1.5 times the normal flow rate. Preferably, the flow should be in a back flush mode, which has a better chance of dissolving the scale because it attacks the deposits from the opposite direction.

After cleaning, the heat exchanger should be rinsed carefully with clean water. A solution of 1-2% sodium hydroxide (NaOH) or sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) before the last rinse ensures that all acid is neutralized. One way to get an indication of the appropriate rinse time is to test the pH of the liquid at the outlet from the heat exchanger. A quick and easy method is to use litmus paper. The pH should be 6-9."

and:

https://service.daikin.com/newweb/ai...DF/E-06033.pdf

"[Correct cleaning method]
1. Clean the heat exchanger with the following cleaning agent according to the cleaning procedure.
Cleaning agent to remove scales.
Prepare a solution made from a 5% diluted acid, such as formic acid, citric acid, oxalic acid, acetic
acid, or phosphoric acid. Do not use any of them at a dilution of 10% or over. Fill the heat
exchanger with the solution at 50C to 60C once. Then circulate the solution with a pump for a
maximum of approximately two hours. The cleaning period may vary depending on the removal of
dirt and cleaning condition of the hydrothermal exchanger.
Cleaning agent to remove oil and organic fouling
Prepare a solution made from a 3% caustic soda. Do not use any of them at a dilution of 4% or
over. Fill the heat exchanger with the solution at 50C to 60C once. Then circulate the solution
with a pump for a maximum of approximately two hours. The cleaning period may vary depending
on the removal of dirt and cleaning condition of the heat exchanger.
2. Neutralization
After cleaning the heat exchanger, circulate a 1% to 2% sodium hydroxide or bicarbonate of soda for
15 to 20 minutes for neutralization.
3. Rinsing
Sufficiently rinse the interior of the water heat exchanger with clean water after the above
neutralization work. "
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:04 AM   #49
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Reading this with great interest as the only thing I have ever flushed is the toilet. A couple foo questions:

1. Do you need to mix up new batches of BB or other product for each engine or are you reusing the same liquid even though dirty?

2. Is it ok or normal to use BB for a fresh water side flush?

3. The neutralization process mentioned, when the raw water system is reopened and the engine is run won't that wash away all acid? Why neutralize? Or is that for the fresh water system?

4. The raw water hoses to my shafts don't have a valve to shut off flow. Should I just clamp them somehow, vise grips maybe?

Thanks in advance for answers.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:05 AM   #50
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Double post.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:09 AM   #51
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1. Do you need to mix up new batches of BB or other product for each engine or are you reusing the same liquid even though dirty?

2. Is it ok or normal to use BB for a fresh water side flush?

3. The neutralization process mentioned, when the raw water system is reopened and the engine is run won't that wash away all acid? Why neutralize? Or is that for the fresh water system?

4. The raw water hoses to my shafts don't have a valve to shut off flow. Should I just clamp them somehow, vise grips maybe?
1. It depends. If you get lots of crud from the first engine, make a new batch for the second. OTOH, if it comes out clean from the first, re-use could work.

2. I think not. For our engines, Cummins recommends draining coolant, using a flushing product called Restore, flushing with fresh water, and then filling with new coolant. Might be similar for your engines; check your service manual.

3. I suspect that just means you should do the raw water flush right away.

4. You may have to pull the shaft seal cooling water hoses off and plug them. I know ours are really stiff, so clamping wasn't really possible.

Do remember to remove any zincs beforehand.

And then when it comes to impellers, it depends. If you use the engine's raw water pump to fill the system (fill-wait-flush) then you'll want impellers in. If you're recirculating, and depending on where you're innies and outies are, you might want impellers out.

-Chris
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:18 AM   #52
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Thanks. Should have mentioned these are Lehman SP135's and a Westerbeke 8kw genset. Will go back to the manual (duh) and check what it says. Don't remember anything specific in it but I have been focusing on more mundane things such as "Starting Your engine". Not the most experienced with diesels. Haven't a clue when they were last flushed although the engines appear to be well taken care of. Have to search the records to see if I can find anything about flushing. The PO did a lot of stuff himself so may not be there. This seems to be a relatively simple process.

Of course I just ensured issues....
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:31 AM   #53
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4. You may have to pull the shaft seal cooling water hoses off and plug them. I know ours are really stiff, so clamping wasn't really possible.

There could be a compromise method for dealing with the shaft seal hoses. If you hook up a recirculating path, fill and wait, circulate and wait, circulate and wait...

You'll lose some solution through the shaft seal hoses each time you recirculate, but maybe not as much...

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Old 06-16-2017, 08:16 AM   #54
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The closer one gets to those who manufacture and sell acid cleaners for today's exotic metal combinations found in marine engines the better the idea.

The closer one gets to those who design and build today's marine engines the worse the idea.

Unless one has a background in the chemistry and use of H+ solutions for cleaning metals.tread lightly.

If you are lucky enough to have cupro nickel heat exchangers removing them for a brief dilute right stuff soak in a bucket is very helpful. Secondly there are proper coolant side flushes that can be obtained by reading your engine manual.

There is no generic way to clean marine engines' solution paths. Each engine and era is different. Cleaning a 30 year old naturally aspirated farm tractor conversion is very different than a newer Volvo et al. Be questioning on dock talk and what you read on the Internet.

And, ask yourself, what problem am I trying to solve?
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:52 AM   #55
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The closer one gets to those who manufacture and sell acid cleaners for today's exotic metal combinations found in marine engines the better the idea.

The closer one gets to those who design and build today's marine engines the worse the idea.

Unless one has a background in the chemistry and use of H+ solutions for cleaning metals.tread lightly.

If you are lucky enough to have cupro nickel heat exchangers removing them for a brief dilute right stuff soak in a bucket is very helpful. Secondly there are proper coolant side flushes that can be obtained by reading your engine manual.

There is no generic way to clean marine engines' solution paths. Each engine and era is different. Cleaning a 30 year old naturally aspirated farm tractor conversion is very different than a newer Volvo et al. Be questioning on dock talk and what you read on the Internet.

And, ask yourself, what problem am I trying to solve?


Listen to Tom. There are only a few true experts contributing here, and Tom is one of them. His expertise is relevant to this thread.

Ask yourself this: Do I know enough about this subject to go ahead with something that could have significant adverse side effects? Is the cure of what may not even be an issue, worth the risk that the use of strong chemicals in my otherwise perfectly functioning engines may damage parts that are vital to the continuing good performance of those very engines?
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:21 AM   #56
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The closer one gets to those who manufacture and sell acid cleaners for today's exotic metal combinations found in marine engines the better the idea.

The closer one gets to those who design and build today's marine engines the worse the idea.

Unless one has a background in the chemistry and use of H+ solutions for cleaning metals.tread lightly.

If you are lucky enough to have cupro nickel heat exchangers removing them for a brief dilute right stuff soak in a bucket is very helpful. Secondly there are proper coolant side flushes that can be obtained by reading your engine manual.

There is no generic way to clean marine engines' solution paths. Each engine and era is different. Cleaning a 30 year old naturally aspirated farm tractor conversion is very different than a newer Volvo et al. Be questioning on dock talk and what you read on the Internet.

And, ask yourself, what problem am I trying to solve?
I just finished removing the exchangers from both of my Lehman 120's. Used Barnacle Buster and flushed clean. The tubes on both exchangers had been about 50% occluded. After clean out, both engines ran 15 degrees cooler at about the thermostat temp which, in my case, is 180 degrees.
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