Training and Licensing

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

One of the biggest complaints is about wakes...as far as I now the USCG has no jurisdiction on vessels under 300 tons and wakes...only in federal speed zones (and then it's speed, not wake enforced).

Then the law needs to be changed.

I could argue for a mandatory online course, in which you get a certificate of completion, just like Boat US has. However, not for a license. The license will do little for safety and just provide another government money grab for them... just like drivers licenses.


We already have too much government, don't need more.

A certificate vs a license, what would be the difference? Law?

I actually agree with SeeVee that we have enough government.

So why would I support a nationwide program? I really don't. But if you are going to complain about boating issues, such as wakes, then you need to be part of the solution. Shouting additional regulations affect my freedom mean nothing unless you are willing to solve it.

I had a wake problem at my dock. One boat caused over $55,000 in damage. The operator was found guilty of reckless operation of a vessel and ordered to pay $36,000 in restitution. But this didn't solve the problem of boats in a no wake zone. I worked with the sheriff and county commission to put new no wake buoys up and down the slough. The sheriff boat showed up and issued a few citations of excessive wakes. Now folks slow down, if they don't its a $500 fine.

If you are not willing to create a program such as water/vessel license, or some other solution, then you really don't care about the problem. Look at what GA and FL folks did with illegal anchoring. They worked to solve the issue.

So would a nationwide license program solve the issue? Don't know. But when you start arresting and fining folks for bad behavior, the behavior tends to go away.

 

[sunchaser]

One thing that make me wonder, is how the states that mandate some form of training look at someone who has been USCG Licensed for over 50 years, who made their living by going to sea, retaking parts of the license to maintain that license, but coudn't pass the physical on his last renewal, but got a Continiuty of my License. I can assure you that I have far more training than any state license requires, probably remember the RULE OF THE ROAD very well and operate a boat like I care. Do I still need to get a state operators certificate, to operate a boat is certain states. My state doesn't require anything to operate a boat on state waters.

Steve
Yeah, wisdom and experience sometimes get overlooked. In WA you get a pass if you're born before 1955 and hold a USCG marine operator's license.

We have both BC and WA operators licences. Easy enough to pass with a modest amount of study. In both cases though geared towards newbies, trailer boaters, buoys, stand on vs give way and night travel.

My remembrance is Evel refused to get a bike license in MT as it didn't cover what bikers really face - bad car drivers.

 

[mvweebles]

Aw Jeez ASD - you had to drag in illegal anchoring in Florida and Georgia?

BoatUS states that last year, 171k people took their online courses for the 36 states that require them. Here is a list of the ten most incorrectly answered questions.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advic...top-10-missed-online-boating-course-questions

What a shame - imagine all the lives that would be saved if everyone knew what a Cunningham is used for!

Peter

 

[firehoser75]

Unfortunately I think the biggest issue (cause) is people who either don't take a moment to think before they act, or they are just totally inconsiderate! In both cases, they actually know better, but just do it anyway. Training or education is not likely to have a big impact on that. Enforcement could, but there are just not enough resources (on water enforcement personnel) to have a large impact. IMHO the second cause would be "lack of knowledge".

Don't get me wrong, boater education is needed to truly safely operate a boat. There is so much to know, and a lot of it is not readily known by non-boaters. Learning the hard way, is not a good idea on the water, especially for some things. One example would be safely transiting a tidal rapid! (and we have lots of those around these parts).

I have witnessed my share of idiotic, dangerous boating over the years, and unfortunately I don't have any good ideas (ones that have a decent chance of having a meaningful impact) on how to realistically solve this one. However, it is a REAL issue!! The current "Can. boater card" is NOT the answer. Better than nothing, but not much better.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Aw Jeez ASD - you had to drag in illegal anchoring in Florida and Georgia?


Peter

I think those who fought it and won are heros. I wish those in PNW would take lessons from those folks.

 

[bayview]

name any behavior that has been improved by legislation.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

name any behavior that has been improved by legislation.

LOL you sir, do have a point

 

[Creek]

One of the beauties of boating is that it mostly gets us away from the idiots who run government. Licensing would only give the 'authorities' an opportunity to tax, fine and regulate boating which does nothing to improve safety or the experiences we seek. It will do little to nothing to improve the bad judgment of irresponsible people who are naturally removed by Darwin's law.



I agree that discounts on insurance policies to those who can demonstrate knowledge of boating is a better way to achieve the desired result.

 

[psneeld]

One of the beauties of boating is that it mostly gets us away from the idiots who run government. Licensing would only give the 'authorities' an opportunity to tax, fine and regulate boating which does nothing to improve safety or the experiences we seek. It will do little to nothing to improve the bad judgment of irresponsible people who are naturally removed by Darwin's law.



I agree that discounts on insurance policies to those who can demonstrate knowledge of boating is a better way to achieve the desired result.

I suggest you follow how laws and regulations often get started.


Born by "idiots who hurt themselves or others" and by "community idiots" who push their narrow minded agendas on politicians.

 

[Bacchus]

Ah the old govt licensing debate...
I bet every interested group feels their license is meaningless and does nothing towards improvement!
Would you go to an unlicensed Dr and have them operate on you or loved one?
Would you board a airplane, bus, taxi, cruise ship... take your choice... where you knew the "driver" wasn't "licensed"
Would you leave your children at an unlicensed day care?
Endless examples... thevsystem isn't perfect and can't guarantee no problems but it seems better having some standards.
I havent looked in detail at boating accident reports lately but will guess accidents / deaths are down on a per user basis now vs prior to states doing any education, licensing.
How many would trust your boat transport to a driver that doesn't have a valid driver license???

 

[PracticalNavigator]

Great topic!

As a former USCG patrol boat skipper, I can tell you that enforcement is a pretty hard nut to crack; USCG is way under-funded to do more than spot checks. I usually went after the prettiest boats so I could get a look at them haha. But more seriously we often focused on commercial fishing vessels where I was stationed (Maine, Alaska and Norcal), and when were looking to get our numbers up, went after the "Rec" boats and could do about 12 per day properly.

I think this is helpful to show how your tax dollars are allocated to the 11 statutory missions the USCG has to perform: (sorry I am new to forum if I screw up the hyperlink).

https://www.uscg.mil/Portals/0/documents/budget/FY 2018 USCG APR Signed 6-12-19.pdf

And as a current Captain's License instructor, I can also tell you that people's understanding of COLREGS and Inland Rules is horrendous. Even when I teach Coasties, they struggle to get the required 90% score on the first go.

As far as licensing by the state or federal, probably a good idea in my opinion but I kind of just expect the implementation of any such program would be super tough on so many fronts.

 

[23435ps]

One of the biggest complaints is about wakes...as far as I now the USCG has no jurisdiction on vessels under 300 tons and wakes...only in federal speed zones (and then it's speed, not wake enforced).

Not really the case. If the vessel is on Federal navigable waters (which are almost all coastal waters, bays, harbors etc.), the USCG has full jurisdiction over the operation of any vessel regardless of size. If a vessel's wake (or excessive speed) causes an unsafe condition it can be cited for negligent operation or under some conditions grossly negligent operation (46 USC 2302). In some circumstances exceeding a posted speed limitation could result in a negligent operation violation.

 

[psneeld]

Not really the case. If the vessel is on Federal navigable waters (which are almost all coastal waters, bays, harbors etc.), the USCG has full jurisdiction over the operation of any vessel regardless of size. If a vessel's wake (or excessive speed) causes an unsafe condition it can be cited for negligent operation or under some conditions grossly negligent operation (46 USC 2302). In some circumstances exceeding a posted speed limitation could result in a negligent operation violation.

You are correct...negligent operation..... but not wake itself as far as I know.....and if the speed is a state posted speed...I don't believe they have jurisdiction.



After numerous calls to the USCG, even when I was in charge of Group Cape May OPCEN...I have only heard of the USCG responding to but maybe a handful of wake damage calls....from Jersey to the Keys.


Much like calling the police about a guy speeding down your street....they either have to see it or have numerous calls including bridge tenders or officials, etc.... to even bother to investigate.


The only published info I could ever find by the USCG and wakes was this from I believe their NAVCEN page....



[FONT=&quot]USCG FAQs on Wake Damage[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. What are the regulations concerning wake effects, wake damage, and responsibility? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Regarding one's wake, vessels over 1600 Gross Tons (GT) are specifically required by Title 33 CFR 164.11 to [FONT=&quot]set the vessel's speed with consideration for...the damage that might be caused by the vessel's wake[/FONT]. Further, there may be State or local laws which specifically address "wake" for the waters in question.

While vessels under 1600 GT are not specifically required to manage their speed in regards to wake, they are still required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property ([FONT=&quot]46 USC 2302[/FONT]). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect ([FONT=&quot]Rule 2[/FONT]), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds ([FONT=&quot]Rule 6[/FONT]), improper lookout ([FONT=&quot]Rule 5[/FONT]), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.

As to whether or not a particular vessel is responsible for the damage it creates is a question of law and fact that is best left to the Courts. For more information, contact your local Marine Patrol or [FONT=&quot]State Boating Law Administrator[/FONT].[/FONT]

 

[markpierce]

On the way back home from Trader Joe's this afternoon, noticed Highway 4 East was backed up to the horizon beginning at US Hiway 680 at Martinez/Concord, CA. Passed that way 40 minutes earlier with no issue. Fire truck and Highway Patrol blocked the freeway East due to an accident. ... The interchange is under modification with a posted speed limit of 45 MPH. Nevertheless, most cars were going 65, zooming past me earlier.

Too many idiots on the roads, licensed or not. Expect the same on waters.

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2...es-shuts-down-eastbound-highway-4-in-pacheco/

 

[mvweebles]

For those who don't know, you are responsible for your wake and any damage it might cause even if you are not in a speed regulated zone.

That means that even if you are in the middle of a lake miles away from a channel or speed regulated zone and blow past a bass boat at 26 kts on your 45 foot sportfisher and your wake swamps them, you are legally responsible.

If you're in a non-speed regulated channel and someone's drift fishing and you swamp them, you're responsible even though they should have known better than to be fishing in an area where boats transit at high speed.

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2015/october/boat-wake-damage-liability.asp

 

[Hippocampus]

What would be huge would be a bit of cross training.
Have power folks realize with double poled out head sails and no main traveling near hull speed you can’t slow down nor even alter course much. Or jibing a main takes a bit of doing. And in the other direction will relate a story.
It was stinky out so we went up the Delaware then through the C & D. As we we’re going down the Chessie hear this as we approach a bridge.
Lady Ship Captain: blue sail boat please state intentions.
Sailboat: I’m on starboard tack and will continue on. You need to alter course.
Captain: I’m a steel 350’ ship draft restricted. Please alter your course NOW.
Sailboat: colregs says I have right of way.
Captain: oh well. Your wrong. Your funeral. Please hit us well above the waterline . Don’t want trouble painting.
We did see him tack and she did key the mike so heard her giggle.
That level of ego centric arrogance is all to common. Still believe licensure won’t change that. It will only take away yet another measure of freedom.

 

[STB]

As someone who was out in the ICW today, I feel comfortable observing that the holidays don't bring out the best in/of boaters.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I want to see the size of the fines and the intensity of enforcement that would be required to solve the problem that way. We all goof up, sometimes.

There are a lot more cars per sq-ft of highway than boats per sq-ft of even coastal waters. It would take more enforcement persons per boater than per driver, and the money would have to come from somewhere, likely either all boaters or those that had bad days and got a bad roll of the dice.

It is true that most boaters don't know all of the rules, and many don't even know enough to correctly do the type of boating they do.

But, I think the biggest problem is attitude, not ignorance. And, it is harder to cure with outreach and support.

 

[BandB]

We now have licensing in FL but none of this is a licensing matter, other than as a way to lose one's license and right to operate in a state. Now the real issue is enforcement and this is largely inadequate state wildlife personnel. Coast Guard has other issues and priorities other than dealing with the ICW and coastal waters. Fines need to be increased to pay for additional enforcement.

 

[CaptTom]

For those who don't know, you are responsible for your wake and any damage it might cause even if you are not in a speed regulated zone.

Yes, that's the "Boating for Dummies" version.

The fact is, you can be held responsible for the result of any negligent operation. Certainly that CAN include wakes. But making a wake is not automatically negligent. Nor is waking someone the only way you can be found negligent.

While I can't disagree with the sentiment of the "you are responsible for your wake" campaign, I try to also explain the nuance. That legal accountability and responsibility for everything that happens under your control is what distinguishes operating a boat from driving a car. There are no lines on the water. There are few road signs and traffic lights. It's up to YOU to figure out what's safe.

If we could somehow get that message across to new and casual boaters, we'd be much better off.

 

[23435ps]

Yes, that's the "Boating for Dummies" version.

The fact is, you can be held responsible for the result of any negligent operation. Certainly that CAN include wakes. But making a wake is not automatically negligent. Nor is waking someone the only way you can be found negligent.

While I can't disagree with the sentiment of the "you are responsible for your wake" campaign, I try to also explain the nuance. That legal accountability and responsibility for everything that happens under your control is what distinguishes operating a boat from driving a car. There are no lines on the water. There are few road signs and traffic lights. It's up to YOU to figure out what's safe.

If we could somehow get that message across to new and casual boaters, we'd be much better off.

Well said! Thanks.

 

[Hippocampus]

Similarly if you have an aid to navigation (radar, AIS, VHF, Hailer etc.) and you have it off so not using it when involved in a collision you are considered at least partially at fault.
Or if you don’t keep an adequate watch.
Or you don’t fly a anchor ball and are struck you are partially liable.
Examples abound. Some awareness of admiralty law is worthwhile. Liability can be shared. Any deviation from best practices incurs liability.

 

[Seevee]

We now have licensing in FL but none of this is a licensing matter, other than as a way to lose one's license and right to operate in a state. Now the real issue is enforcement and this is largely inadequate state wildlife personnel. Coast Guard has other issues and priorities other than dealing with the ICW and coastal waters. Fines need to be increased to pay for additional enforcement.

Band,


What licensing do we now have in FL?

 

[Northern Spy]

I believe only part of the issue is education and licencing, but more the consequences of the behaviors of an entitled culture. Primarily a lack of etiquette. The same people who boat like the examples in the first post, are probably idiots in most of their other endeavors as well.

Maybe throw in the lack of critical thinking and bad decision making skills too.

 

[Hippocampus]

I believe only part of the issue is education and licencing, but more the consequences of the behaviors of an entitled culture. Primarily a lack of etiquette. The same people who boat like the examples in the first post, are probably idiots in most of their other endeavors as well.

Maybe throw in the lack of critical thinking and bad decision making skills too.

Spot on

 

[psneeld]

My experience with a lot of students ......was bad behavior on the water was 90% had little knowledge of almost anything boating. Especially etiquette as many mentioned when I mentioned good etiquette, they say they never had anyone mention it before. 10% were just jerks with attitudes so no matter of training or licensing would do much if they never got stung by enforcement...even then it couldn't just be financial.



I had a guy that was really smart...PhD, bright, etc....but maxed out with controls, steering, navigating, gauge monitoring, traffic....and he would forget to slow down in wake zones...... when brought up a few times....he would add that and drop something else.


In a few years we had become friends and his skills finally caught up and he managed critical items first and didn't get overwhelmed. It helped that his longer cruises each year (taking boat from winter storage to home dock) were with someone that he felt comfy with and watched/corrected him to reinforce certain things. So he improved. I think few boaters ever get that chance. Most of my other friends at the dock just never get enough experience to get by just getting out for awhile, living with their screwups and returning home till next weekend.

 

[mvweebles]

Yes, that's the "Boating for Dummies" version.

The fact is, you can be held responsible for the result of any negligent operation. Certainly that CAN include wakes. But making a wake is not automatically negligent. Nor is waking someone the only way you can be found negligent.

While I can't disagree with the sentiment of the "you are responsible for your wake" campaign, I try to also explain the nuance. That legal accountability and responsibility for everything that happens under your control is what distinguishes operating a boat from driving a car. There are no lines on the water. There are few road signs and traffic lights. It's up to YOU to figure out what's safe.

If we could somehow get that message across to new and casual boaters, we'd be much better off.

I thought there were mitigating circumstances to the wake-responsibility rule too. I mean, if you're in the ICW channel doing 25 kts in an area which has no speed zone and some bone head is standing in his John boat fishing, it's his problem, right? He should know better than to be in a wake zone.

While there is some contributory negligence on his part, of you don't slow down and causes injury, death, or damage, you will be cited and you will lose.

Peter

 

[STB]

I thought there were mitigating circumstances to the wake-responsibility rule too. I mean, if you're in the ICW channel doing 25 kts in an area which has no speed zone and some bone head is standing in his John boat fishing, it's his problem, right? He should know better than to be in a wake zone.

While there is some contributory negligence on his part, of you don't slow down and causes injury, death, or damage, you will be cited and you will lose.

Peter

Really? Why not slow down so everyone can use the water rather than placing another humans life risk?

In my boating world, the evaluation of this never rises to a legal analysis.

There most certainly is not a minimum boat size or speed limit in the ICW.

My speed varies with conditions, including the type and mode of use of boats sufficiently nearby to potentially be impacted by my actions.

So, personally, nope, I don't think anyone has a moral, ethical, or legal right to fly by someone stand up fishing in a Jon boat at 25kn, generating a sufficient wake to hazard their life (or even property).

I'm not even going to think about the legal rubric (.)

 

[mvweebles]

I personally that if a SUP or someone wants to do their thing near a channel where traffic speeds by, it's their own damn fault of they get tipped ass over tea kettle. Or if some homeowner has a dock with their boat floating in it along a no-speed-limit channel.

But that's not the way the Rules are interpreted. The operator is liable even if they are breaking no other Rules, laws, regulations, etc.

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

Training and licensing will not change anything.
pete

Pete, I tend to agree with you. We have a driver's license but, it doesn't stop us from speeding on the highway.
It is interesting, in most if not all states, any ticketed moving violations on a boat gets a person points on their auto drivers license. LOL

 

[psneeld]

I will repost part of what I posted in post #43....
From the USCG.....

"As to whether or not a particular vessel is responsible for the damage it creates is a question of law and fact that is best left to the Courts. For more information, contact your local Marine Patrol or State Boating Law Administrator."