Nordhavn runs aground Ocean Reef

[OldDan1943]

I do hope they visited a boat yard for a ‘short haul’ to inspect blow the water line.

 

[bkcorwin]

Who would be using an autopilot in that channel?

I have used my autopilot in all kinds of channels in our local area. Montlake cut included. I also watch it like crazy and know how to get wheel command back quickly if I have to. But I'd wager my autopilot can steer a better and more predictable course to nearby traffic, when moving at low speeds, than I can by wheel.

I also know of people who have completely removed the steering wheel and store it in a handy locker and use their follow up levers for navigating the boat (I don't i like my backup wheel). So while not in auto mode, you are reliant on the AP or some other electronic device to control the pumps for the rudder.

 

[OA486AGC]

Just saw this on Yachtforum. Anyone know what happened?

Stabilizers don't seem to be helping....

 

[backinblue]

I have used my autopilot in all kinds of channels in our local area. Montlake cut included. I also watch it like crazy and know how to get wheel command back quickly if I have to.

Don't be so sure. I had my autopilot lock up at full starboard rudder and it took a while for it to release, even when the A/P was powered off. If your autopilot malfunctions, how can you be sure the wheel will work instantly if needed?

 

[MYTraveler]

I also know of people who have completely removed the steering wheel and store it in a handy locker and use their follow up levers for navigating the boat

At least one of the ships shown on Deadliest Catch has only a jog lever at the main helm. I have only job levers at my two wing stations and in the cockpit and tower. Although the pilothouse and flybridge have wheels, I never use them, preferring instead to steer with the autopilot controls and to maneuver with the engines.

 

[lwarden]

I've got a jog stick in the flybridge and at the cockpit controls. They take a bit of getting used to but I've found the flybridge is positioned well to allow your feet to be on the dash and steering with your heels while relaxing back in the helm chair. The ultimate in lazy piloting... The practice will also come in useful if I lose use of both hands for some reason I reckon.

In general I use the buttons on the autopilot though when running in mostly a straight line.

 

[rslifkin]

At least one of the ships shown on Deadliest Catch has only a jog lever at the main helm. I have only job levers at my two wing stations and in the cockpit and tower. Although the pilothouse and flybridge have wheels, I never use them, preferring instead to steer with the autopilot controls and to maneuver with the engines.

Agreed. Most of them do have a backup wheel somewhere in the wheelhouse, but at that size, manual steering has to be a pretty slow ratio (lots of turns lock to lock). So it's impractical to use for primary steering, making the jog stick / autopilot pump a much better choice. On smaller boats, it's more a matter of preference, as the steering forces are lower and you can have a faster ratio for manual wheel steering.

 

[psneeld]

Don't be so sure. I had my autopilot lock up at full starboard rudder and it took a while for it to release, even when the A/P was powered off. If your autopilot malfunctions, how can you be sure the wheel will work instantly if needed?

Not all work the same.

My older Raymarine unit could always be steered through, even when "on".

I used mine just about all the time except in docking situations or where it would be just too slow in reacting for traffic or other unusual situations.

Cruising and using it is a lot different than just tooling around.

 

[OldDan1943]

My N46 had a rudder control on a long wire. I miss it.
It would nice if I could get one for my AT34

 

[Art]

High tide hopeful!

 

[backinblue]

Not all work the same.

My older Raymarine unit could always be steered through, even when "on".

I used mine just about all the time except in docking situations or where it would be just too slow in reacting for traffic or other unusual situations.

Cruising and using it is a lot different than just tooling around.

I don't doubt what you are saying. I use mine all the time and not just "tooling around". So I was just trying to say is that don't assume you can immediately grab the wheel and steer in an emergency if you need to. You can't predict what may happen in a malfunction. I especially wouldn't want to use it in an extremely narrow and shallow channel even if it could be disabled quickly.

 

[Simi 60]

Don't be so sure. I had my autopilot lock up at full starboard rudder and it took a while for it to release, even when the A/P was powered off. If your autopilot malfunctions, how can you be sure the wheel will work instantly if needed?

Ours works flawlessly if just using it to go a straight line.
And a button press to release control.

But it's connected to the SEIWA plotter which only runs GPS and all bets are off if using it to run a route.
When it loses signal , at the most inopportune time, it steers north regardless of where we are.
($10 eBay puck on OpenCPN uses GPS, Glonass, BeiDou and never loses signal)

Just as well I don't need it to navigate on my behalf.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Boat name?

I think it's Costa something

 

[Simi 60]

I think it's Costa something

Concordia (-;

 

[psneeld]

I don't doubt what you are saying. I use mine all the time and not just "tooling around". So I was just trying to say is that don't assume you can immediately grab the wheel and steer in an emergency if you need to. You can't predict what may happen in a malfunction. I especially wouldn't want to use it in an extremely narrow and shallow channel even if it could be disabled quickly.

What you are missing is some can be steered through even when it is malfunctioning....they don't NEED to be disabled to steer.

When mine would start an uncommanded turn (and did for multiple reasons), I could just steer the boat straight or the opposite way my autopilot was turning.

Had the same on other autopilots through the years. That was the first drill I did whenever using an autopilot for the first time on a strange boat (commercial, delivery, friends, etc) I would command the pilot to turn, then see if I could steer through it the opposite way.

I CAN know what might happen in at least my old autopilot...only one of two malfunctions could occur. With explaining the steering system, it just allowed steering no matter what the autopilot did or didn't do. If you stopped the steer through it would continue whatever it was doing, but I could just secure the pump at that point which off or frozen didn't effect the steering.

Knowing your gear is tantamount to using it safely.

 

[mvweebles]

..... the first drill I did whenever using an autopilot for the first time on a strange boat (commercial, delivery, friends, etc) I would command the pilot to turn, then see if I could steer through it the opposite way.

Good tip....never thought of it but it's a really good idea.

For many boats in narrow channels, NAV (vs AUTO) function on A/P can be very useful (NAV/AUTO terminology may differ by brand). AUTO maintains a compass bearing so if there are crosswinds/currents boat can crab sideways whereas NAV will snap a line to the GOTO waypoint and make steering adjustments to stay on the line as shown by XTE (cross track error). Result is you are much less likely to be unwittingly 'drifted' outside channel by cross winds/currents.

Not all boats respond well to their A/Ps at slow speeds - planing boats with small rudders comes to mind. At slow speeds, cross winds/currents can easily overwhelm the A/P adjustments to correct. Manual steering or engine-controls are needed.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

If concerned about an autopilot freak out and having to try to fight the system when the A/P pump is stuck on in one direction or something, you could always install a switch or breaker near the helm to cut power to the A/P pump. Then it doesn't matter if it's stuck in a bad state, it can't mess with your manual steering.

 

[Portage_Bay]

My thoughts as well. It's very rare but I have had to gain manual control in an AP failure. I think most of the systems installed on recreational boats where the pump is controlled by the AP manual control can be gained by killing the power. Either power to the AP or a breaker on the pump circuit.

When you get to heavier duty systems which are continuous running using solenoid valves to control hydraulic flow one or both solenoid valves can get stuck leaving you without steering, AP, power or manual. In a sense that would be no different than hardware component failure elsewhere in the system. Hose, tubing, seals etc. It's going to require hands on repairs to get steering back.

If concerned about an autopilot freak out and having to try to fight the system when the A/P pump is stuck on in one direction or something, you could always install a switch or breaker near the helm to cut power to the A/P pump. Then it doesn't matter if it's stuck in a bad state, it can't mess with your manual steering.

Knowing your gear is tantamount to using it safely.

 

[Hippocampus]

Many APs have three modes although called different things by different brands
ND-no drift (what I may use in narrow channels)
Go To- gets you to a waypoint
Course- called A on simrad. Steers a compass course

For boats with hydraulic steering lock to lock maybe several turns and the AP steers much faster at slow speeds. Have taken to alternating between standby and one of the three modes when going through skinny water. Also have taken to putting rudder angle indicator on one of the small screens when up in the flybridge. The principle helm has a separate dedicated rudder angle indicator.
In short you dance with the girl you brought to the dance. I wouldn’t throw stones at the owner/operator for using a AP. Neither would I assume he was at fault with the information available. Possibilities include a failure of judgment but also electronics failure, discrepancies between charting and reality, hydraulic failure, fly by wire failure.
Both prior RM, garmin, and current simrad products have had handheld remotes for the AP. I will use them in open ocean when the depth is so deep it doesn’t read but the three dashes but never in skinny water. Find them intermittently unreliable. That’s yet another possibility.

Last boat had multiple ways to steer. Current one doesn’t which is unfortunately common in small recreational trawlers.
Prior boat would steer via direct linkage to the wheel (arm on rudder post, steel tube to arm to wheel- no play, great feel and bulletproof)
AP on separate arm
Emergency tiller which involved removing a deck plate and sticking it in. Tiller was under hatch in cockpit so a two minute job.
Wind vane Hydrovane. Short tiller stuck into it so disengage vane (pull a knob) put in tiller good to go.
So four independent ways to steer.
Current boat is hydraulic and everything is through the hydraulics.
Nordies I looked at to purchase seemed to have hydraulics as well with an emergency tiller as well. They were small (40-50’). I don’t know the set up in the boat this thread references. Be curious and perhaps others can post it. But even if there’s some redundancy it usually takes time to set up. Have seen people set up an A and B system for APs on voyaging sailboats. Two complete APs including two drives on separate rudder post arms. Neither running through primary steering. Switch from one to the other is literally flipping a switch. Expensive way to do it but worthwhile on shorthanded voyagers if you have the bucks. Also two computers and two separate navigational systems. A complete A and B set up. So double usual costs.

 

[mvweebles]

Many APs have three modes although called different things by different brands
ND-no drift (what I may use in narrow channels)
Go To- gets you to a waypoint
Course- called A on simrad. Steers a compass course

Thanks - never heard of the "ND" option. I assume it's a very narrow XTE setting. Good idea for narrow channels.

.....I wouldn’t throw stones at the owner/operator for using a AP. Neither would I assume he was at fault with the information available. Possibilities include a failure of judgment but also electronics failure, discrepancies between charting and reality, hydraulic failure, fly by wire failure.

This is really good advice. Yes, sometimes the simplest anwer is the correct one ("new boater with more dollars than sense..."). But that means we learn nothing from the incident when there are very likely some teachable moments beyond paying better attention.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Many APs have three modes although called different things by different brands
ND-no drift (what I may use in narrow channels)
Go To- gets you to a waypoint
Course- called A on simrad. Steers a compass course

For boats with hydraulic steering lock to lock maybe several turns and the AP steers much faster at slow speeds. Have taken to alternating between standby and one of the three modes when going through skinny water. Also have taken to putting rudder angle indicator on one of the small screens when up in the flybridge. The principle helm has a separate dedicated rudder angle indicator.
In short you dance with the girl you brought to the dance. I wouldn’t throw stones at the owner/operator for using a AP. Neither would I assume he was at fault with the information available. Possibilities include a failure of judgment but also electronics failure, discrepancies between charting and reality, hydraulic failure, fly by wire failure.
Both prior RM, garmin, and current simrad products have had handheld remotes for the AP. I will use them in open ocean when the depth is so deep it doesn’t read but the three dashes but never in skinny water. Find them intermittently unreliable. That’s yet another possibility.

Are you saying you don't use AP when in places like the Chesapeake Bay or crossing the Albemarle? Or just not use the handhelds?

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks - never heard of the "ND" option. I assume it's a very narrow XTE setting. Good idea for narrow channels.

My understanding of how that mode works on most APs is that instead of tracking a compass course, it takes the desired course and your starting position (when you engage the mode) and sets a virtual waypoint some really long distance off in that direction, then tracks to that waypoint. So instead of tracking a heading of, say, 170*, the effective behavior is to track a course over ground of 170*.

 

[mvweebles]

My understanding of how that mode works on most APs is that instead of tracking a compass course, it takes the desired course and your starting position (when you engage the mode) and sets a virtual waypoint some really long distance off in that direction, then tracks to that waypoint. So instead of tracking a heading of, say, 170*, the effective behavior is to track a course over ground of 170*.

That is how the NAV or GOTO function works. Compensates for drift so boat may be on a course of 270 but with northerly winds pushing her south, shows a compass heading of 275 with slight starboard rudder correction to compensate. In short, it will do whatever it needs to do to minimize XTE - distance from the imaginary line snapped to the Waypoint when NAV is engaged. On AUTO, the operator would be responsible for reconciling drift by altering course from time to time, or calculating the set and steering 275 from the outset. Before sophisticated autopiliots, this was very common when crossing the Gulfstream from Florida to the Bahamas.

My understanding of Hippocampus' post is there is a ND setting where tolerance for XTE is very low. You could manually change this, but sounds like there is a simple setting to do so. Interesting feature (assuming I understand it correctly)

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

That is how the NAV or GOTO function works. Compensates for drift so boat may be on a course of 270 but with northerly winds pushing her south, shows a compass heading of 275 with slight starboard rudder correction to compensate. In short, it will do whatever it needs to do to minimize XTE - distance from the imaginary line snapped to the Waypoint when NAV is engaged. On AUTO, the operator would be responsible for reconciling drift by altering course from time to time, or calculating the set and steering 275 from the outset. Before sophisticated autopiliots, this was very common when crossing the Gulfstream from Florida to the Bahamas.

My understanding of Hippocampus' post is there is a ND setting where tolerance for XTE is very low. You could manually change this, but sounds like there is a simple setting to do so. Interesting feature (assuming I understand it correctly)

Peter

The ND setting (called advanced auto on some pilots) is basically a combination of the 2 modes. You still give the autopilot a compass course to follow, but it internally uses the nav mode with a virtual waypoint (vs one you feed over from the plotter) to track that course over ground.

That mode does need GPS data available, but you don't have to plot a waypoint and tell the AP to go to it. You just tell it to steer 270* in that mode and it'll compensate for set/drift for you (vs blindly steering 270* like in the basic auto mode).

 

[mvweebles]

The ND setting (called advanced auto on some pilots) is basically a combination of the 2 modes. You still give the autopilot a compass course to follow, but it internally uses the nav mode with a virtual waypoint (vs one you feed over from the plotter) to track that course over ground.

That mode does need GPS data available, but you don't have to plot a waypoint and tell the AP to go to it. You just tell it to steer 270* in that mode and it'll compensate for set/drift for you (vs blindly steering 270* like in the basic auto mode).

Many thanks. That's even more cool than my assumed mode! Very useful

Peter

 

[bkcorwin]

In simrad terminology, in Auto you are controlling the heading of the vessel. In no drift you are controlling the course over ground of the vessel.

It was a pretty new boat and commissioning can be challenging. The 80 specs look like quite a departure from what im familiar with being in 68s,76s,86s. I think its the first boat I've seen where the standard specs call out a jastram fly by wire approach with a digital helm encoder.

It'd be really interesting to hear what actually went wrong. I could care less about railing on the captain if he made a mistake, it happens. But it would be really interesting to hear about what component failed in the system. So far anyone I've asked hasn't had any information about cause.

 

[BruceK]

I think it's Costa something

Costa Lot?

 

[Hippocampus]

Use auto 95+% of the time coastal including in the ditch. I just don’t trust the handhelds after several stressful occasions. They come as part of the package when you reup. In fact only place I’m comfortable using them is in large bays where if it fails no harm no foul.

In the ditch so far you sit at a helm with the AP on and rotate the knob on the AP a bit to port then a bit to starboard. That’s a really narrow canal in many places where current boat could run aground between the squares and triangles so you still need to be at the helm. Still APs, joy sticks or levers are more convenient than wheels on many boats. But you add complexity and another failure point.

Hand steer for bridges and overtaking other boats.

 

[OldDan1943]

Based upon my experience, either side of the cut entrance (ocean side) is where the put the spoils or is very shallow.
A quick study of the chart will answer that question.

 

[Hippocampus]

OD that what Bob says in waterway guide and it’s sometimes true but have also found shoals in other sections so watching the depth is important even when in a canal far from inlets.