Issue With Local Rowing Club

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dhays said:
Benthic2 said:
I'm stunned that someone would post this....absolutely stunned.
/QUOTE]


I read it as irony.
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Wifey B: I read it the same way. His way of acknowledging the problem. A little sarcasm to make a point. I hope that's how it was meant, but I'm glad to see someone rise up against it if taken seriously. Makes me feel good to know my rant was listened to. :)
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tgotch`s update is more interesting than the drift. It seems the local authorities are on side and the rowing club has what we call "form" and USA calls a "rap sheet". Hopefully they will act. If you see the unauthorized "no wash" signs come down, even if they get replaced by authorized ones, something is happening.
Do you know anyone else who has been affected but not made representations? Perhaps it is time they did.
Remember:" The road is there to share". The rowing club needs to learn that, though doubtless they`ve been burnt by less considerate boaters, who also have something to learn.
 
Do not forget that we are the best. Move to North Korea if you do not believe that. We are because we have made ourselves that. There are winners and there are losers. Fortunes and life styles are made not a gift unless you are really lucky. Pay to play.
 
bilge53 said:
Do not forget that we are the best. Move to North Korea if you do not believe that. We are because we have made ourselves that. There are winners and there are losers. Fortunes and life styles are made not a gift unless you are really lucky. Pay to play.
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Feeling ok today, bilge 53?
 
I do appreciate all of the well intended "legal" and "reasonable" and "step by step" procedures mentioned in this thread for trying to get rowers to show some courtesy while doing their thang! And I do believe that many of these procedures are correct to be undertaken before what I am about say goes into application. Anyway, this is what I very probably would do after this rower "canal block" thang went on for too long without resolution.

Noise... specifically Extremely LOUD Horn Noise in close proximity to the rowers.

Near as I can tell... there is no law against singling by horn that you want/need to pass. Yes... I know there are a number of beeps to signal passage desire and that more than a couple sets of those beeps should be used in the beginning - BUT - Then with a very loud horn [e.g. bad ass air horn], while close behind the offending rowers - Blast Their Freaking Ears Off! I believe they will eventually part for passage. I'd then calmly explain as I slowly passed through their cadre of rowers that I hope next time it will only take a couple horn toots so I can calmly and respectfully pass by. And, that it is great to see them all enjoying themselves while staying in the best possible physical condition. In other words... give em a one-two punch with regular horn, then Loud Horn. Then kill em with kindness as you pass by. Maybe, just maybe... you all can become more attentive to each other's waterway deeds, needs and desires. ;)

Point in Fact: Living in the country, not far from large population SF, as well as other smaller cities and towns, we have many, many bicycle riders on two lane boulevards that post 55, 45 and 35 mph speed limits. Some times the riders are just not cordial to traffic and ride three or more abreast... severely limiting motor traffic's road use. I found that by singling a couple times with beeps of my horn that that method often does not work... so... I went to WM and purchased two portable, canister fed air horns, one for my car and truck. Now when I run into the bicycle road blockage effect, and couple short beeps from my vehicles regular horn has no affect - I reach out drivers window and blast em with the air horn! Works every time, and quickly too! Then to be cordial as I pass... I yell Thank You!! out passenger window and single a Thumbs Up! for a long period so they can see it. :thumb:

Just Sayen!! :dance: :speed boat:
 
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This is an interesting situation because each individual row boat has the right of way over a power boat.....so as individuals they don't have to do anything since its just powerboat vs rower... However...as a group, they are blocking the waterway and should yield...but the group is just individuals...who have the right of way.
 
Not so Bethnic2, this is an inland river and the only place where "right of way" appears in the rules. Elsewhere it is "stand on" and "give way".
The downbound vessel has "right of way" on inland rivers taking care to maintain the right side of the channel if possible.
 
A little clarification.

Downbound only applies in the Western Rivers and Great Lakes unless a local rule specified by the Secretary.

Narrow channels would possibly negate the human powered rule (if there really is such a tbing as I can never find it unless discussing lights), though not specific, it does discuss different issues and who needs the channel.

That last laundy list posted of give way, stand on was for open water, not constricted waterways....

And ultimately, rule 2 rules.
 
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We live in Philadelphia and there are many rowing clubs around here. The Dad Vail Regatta is this weekend with over 20,000 rowers in attendance. Because it is so heavily populated there are rivers and sections of rivers that are out of bounds for anyone but rowers. The upper Schuylkill River is for powerboats and the lower for racing skulls. The Cooper River in NJ has a similar set up.
I drive past the area on the river reserved for rowing every day and there is no way that I can see that both powerboats and shells can safely be in the same waterway. Sounds to me like something has to give and either the ramp has to move or the rowing club has to move. The first time someone is hurt or worse the decision will be made.
John
 
Dana Point Harbor has a local rule that requires human-powered vessels keep to the right of the channel. Guess how much good that does (I'm not even sure it's legal).

Hmm. I wonder if a powerboat traveling at a no-wake speed is "restricted in its ability to maneuver", at least relative to a paddle board. ?
 
The OP is on the Ohio so Rules of the road, Western rivers is the proper set of rules.
Rule 9 is a very powerful rule which overrides a number of commonly followed rules.
 
The Other Gary said:
The OP is on the Ohio so Rules of the road, Western rivers is the proper set of rules.
Rule 9 is a very powerful rule which overrides a number of commonly followed rules.
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Yep...missed it was on the Ohio, kept thinking it was in Washington state for some reason....

In post #39, you posted a list of priority for vessels.

Where did that come from?

It is not in my set of navrules specifically stated like you posted....

Plus.... in none of the state or federal copies I have for the US, does it place boats being rowed as a category.
 
After having several times sounded the correct number and duration/schedule of horn blasts to inform any type of other boat [i.e. a captained, floating vessel] of your desire for passage-by; and, as a basic request for them to provide room for your boat's passage-by their boat ... but they still purposefully [seeing as they do have room to maneuver their boat(s) so you could pass] do not allow your boat to pass... Is there any law against [regarding] sounding a LOUD AIR HORN for prolong periods of time [e.g. repeated 10 second blasts interspersed by 2 second quiet times]???... in attempt to get any type of waterborne craft's captain's attention and therefore hopefully that captain's relatively simple maneuvers to enable room for your boat's passage.

See my post # 66

Horn Blasts for Passing... etc.

Boating Navigation: When and How to Use Sound Signals

Horns and other Sound Signal Equipment Requirements

Boating Navigation: Required Sound Signaling Equipment


Generalities


Boating Navigation: Important Definitions


Boating Navigation: The Rules of the Road
 
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psneeld said:
Yep...missed it was on the Ohio, kept thinking it was in Washington state for some reason....

In post #39, you posted a list of priority for vessels.

Where did that come from?

It is not in my set of navrules specifically stated like you posted....

Plus.... in none of the state or federal copies I have for the US, does it place boats being rowed as a category.
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You are correct on this, It is in the Canadian regs., not the USCG rules.
Here is the USCG response to a vessel under oars.

Although a vessel under oars may be lit as a sailing vessel, one should not infer that they are considered to be a sailing vessel for other Rules (i.e. Rule 9, 10, 12, 18 or 35). Ultimately, the issue of whether a vessel under oars is the give way or stand-on vessel would fall to what would be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case (Rule 2), and, the notion that they are less able than most other vessels.
 
As a funny aside to the above I have a not so funny story from two years ago in Cuba


I was on the bridge of the 26,000 ton 530 foot Celestyal Christal cruise ship which the company I work for had chartered for 16 weeks, not as a crew member but as supercargo.
We were leaving Cienfuegos after sundown and Cienfuegos harbor has a 75 degree turn to port with VERY little wiggle room for a ship of this size. There was a Cuban pilot for this so the Captain and I were on the Port bridge wing to watch the departure. We were so close to the shore that the Captain pointed out a house there and said, "look they are having peas and rice tonight" As we approached the port turn we saw a large number of approx. 14 foot wooden rowboats, each with a coal oil lamp and a dip net. The captain ordered two blasts of the horn. All the fishermen started waving in a very friendly manner like they were glad to see us and went back to fishing. Again two blasts with the same result. As we got closer the Captain said that he had no plans to see a Cuban jail and ordered 5 blasts. Finally the fishermen realized that the ship was not stopping and scrambled to their oars to get out of the way, several with little room to spare. Once clear of the harbour the pilot said that he had never taken a ship of this size, out the entrance at night before and that the entrance is almost never used at night so the fishermen had no idea what to do.
 
The Other Gary said:
As a funny aside to the above I have a not so funny story from two years ago in Cuba


I was on the bridge of the 26,000 ton 530 foot Celestyal Christal cruise ship which the company I work for had chartered for 16 weeks, not as a crew member but as supercargo.
We were leaving Cienfuegos after sundown and Cienfuegos harbor has a 75 degree turn to port with VERY little wiggle room for a ship of this size. There was a Cuban pilot for this so the Captain and I were on the Port bridge wing to watch the departure. We were so close to the shore that the Captain pointed out a house there and said, "look they are having peas and rice tonight" As we approached the port turn we saw a large number of approx. 14 foot wooden rowboats, each with a coal oil lamp and a dip net. The captain ordered two blasts of the horn. All the fishermen started waving in a very friendly manner like they were glad to see us and went back to fishing. Again two blasts with the same result. As we got closer the Captain said that he had no plans to see a Cuban jail and ordered 5 blasts. Finally the fishermen realized that the ship was not stopping and scrambled to their oars to get out of the way, several with little room to spare. Once clear of the harbour the pilot said that he had never taken a ship of this size, out the entrance at night before and that the entrance is almost never used at night so the fishermen had no idea what to do.
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Proof that LOUD Horns get attention! :thumb:
 
I totally disagree that a boat under oars is less manueverable than my trawler in confined waterways..just slower...and the rules are about being able to or not able to comply with the rules more than any other factor.

Most rowboats can stop and turn on a dime and should be able to use water only a few inches deep....why would a prudent seaman in a rowboat be out in water where big boys play? Anymore than my trawler in a busy traffic separation scheme?

As far as a regatta of 8 man shells...... I rowed 8's for 2 years in college and we occasionally traversed busy waterways and usually stayed well clear of motor traffic.

A bunch of shells is a different story, but they stil have to use the practices of a prudent seaman. Hogging the waterway without a regatta permit is just as bad as bad seamanship by any vessel.
 
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Art said:
. Is there any law against [regarding] sounding a LOUD AIR HORN for prolong periods of time [e.g. repeated 10 second blasts interspersed by 2 second quiet times]???...
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Yes, nearly every municipality would have such a law.
 
Greetings,
Mr. BB. Regarding municipal law wrt "loud noise". Imagine this scenario...
Rowing club is out practicing and impeding traffic on the fairway. Power boat approaches and sounds small horn. Signal is ignored. Fearing a collision if he/she (powerboat) proceeds, then sounds 5 prolonged blasts from VERY large horn. If this is repeated enough times, someone should "get the message."

Yes, the power boat can slow to prevent collision but in order to maintain steerage must keep some way on and who knows, the rowers may decide to stop right in front of the vessel.
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,
Mr. BB. Regarding municipal law wrt "loud noise". Imagine this scenario...
Rowing club is out practicing and impeding traffic on the fairway. Power boat approaches and sounds small horn. Signal is ignored. Fearing a collision if he/she (powerboat) proceeds, then sounds 5 prolonged blasts from VERY large horn. If this is repeated enough times, someone should "get the message."

Yes, the power boat can slow to prevent collision but in order to maintain steerage must keep some way on and who knows, the rowers may decide to stop right in front of the vessel.
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Note, he was saying 10 second blasts with 2 second intervals so that would mean that 50 seconds of every minute. I would think plenty of messages would be gotten, but not the ones he'd want. Rather than helping his case, I think there's substantial risk to hurting it.
 
BandB said:
Yes, nearly every municipality would have such a law.
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Then: Wouldn't the municipality have a law against purposefully blocking a waterway so that other boats are slowed way too much in comparison to their normal, legal passage speed in that waterway? Especially when the blockage source [row boats in this circumstance] could easily move aside so that the vessel wanting [or maybe even needing] to pass-by could accomplish its procedure of passing.

Seems to me... What is good for the goose is good for the gander!

Additionally; I do not believe that prolonged horn blasts would break laws after considerable time and efforts to gain passage by singling same via applicably legal horn toots received no success of the row boats moving aside.

I don't believe the longer horn blasts would hold up as a chargeable offence in a court of law seeing as the row boats are the ones breaking the "right of passage" law for another floating vessel.

I'm glad that I never run into the same predicament. There would be some very loud horn sounds coming from my boat after having utilized all other ways with still no success of the rowers letting me bass-by.

Just like drivers on roads... drivers on the water need to take others' needs into consideration and enable things to move along as freely and safely as possible.

:dance: :speed boat: :D
 
Again, as so often is the case, all this would be a non-issue if common sense and courtesy were used by all sides. The rowers need to recognize that they have to share the waterway with other users, just as we do.

Rules only go so far. A sailboat is the stand-on vessel in almost all situations. Even so, few sailors will intentionally tack in front of a powered vessel, particularly in any kind of restricted water way. A human powered vessel should have the same common sense.
 
dhays said:
Again, as so often is the case, all this would be a non-issue if common sense and courtesy were used by all sides. The rowers need to recognize that they have to share the waterway with other users, just as we do.

Rules only go so far. A sailboat is the stand-on vessel in almost all situations. Even so, few sailors will intentionally tack in front of a powered vessel, particularly in any kind of restricted water way. A human powered vessel should have the same common sense.
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Dave - You are often the purveyor of such calm, thoughtful, sensible ways for getting through/over/past a situation. ;) Congrats! - Art

PS: I am often not as such... although sometimes I can be - especially under guidance of my level headed sweet wife, Linda! :thumb: :dance:
 
We are a nation of laws. Even Trump says that.

If you don't like the law then change it. But until it gets changed one must abide by the law. Or get fined or go to jail.
So if the law allows the rowers to exclude everyone else from a waterway that shall be untill the law is changed.

In the real world couldn't the waterway be devided in two or three. Just like our roads and highways. Local cities and sheriffs could say "big boats in the middle, small boats to the side" with some specifics. But of course specifying where the middle is would be troublesome not to mention where Joe Johnson was at 2:45 on Wed afternoon ect.

Just go very slow. Don't remember how long the channel is but slow should be safe for all. If your're only going 2 knots how can anybody say you're a hazard? Kayaks are usually faster than that.

Is'nt this in California? There's too many people. Move..
 
dhays said:
Again, as so often is the case, all this would be a non-issue if common sense and courtesy were used by all sides. The rowers need to recognize that they have to share the waterway with other users, just as we do.

Rules only go so far. A sailboat is the stand-on vessel in almost all situations. Even so, few sailors will intentionally tack in front of a powered vessel, particularly in any kind of restricted water way. A human powered vessel should have the same common sense.
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Indeed,
But where in the world would I find people like that? And if we were like that one would expect that there would be no laws. No reason to have them. But the US is dependant on laws and the courts to enforce them.
 
My goal is to work with both parties to come to a solution that will benefit both parties, rather than create an acrimonious relationship. Should all this fail, then I may break out the horn(s). :)

It bothers me a bit that this club has been given a lot of "leeway" (his words), and should have been ticketed numerous times. The club, in my opinion has taken advantage of this, and is way overstepping their bounds, and appears to be slowly trying to take over a public waterway.
 
Greetings,
Mr. t. It is indeed difficult to deal with such a situation particularly when you are attempting to reach a mutually agreeable and beneficial solution for both sides. I agree that the club seems to be taking advantage and has been doing so for some time in spite of the attention paid to them by the local LEO's. I suppose the "solutions" I've suggested thus far have appeared harsh but, at some point, enough is enough. You have been acting responsibly IMO and the careless attitude being exhibited by the club could very easily end in tragedy for someone's child.
 
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