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Old 03-31-2017, 05:02 PM   #1
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Returning Member - Answering CCV Related Questions

Pleased to offer any support or answer any questions regarding air filtration or any CCV systems on marine diesels.
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Old 03-31-2017, 06:54 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum.

I know that Air Seps are the cats meow for Detroit Diesels. They control blowby venting and all of the fumes, soot and oil is filtered, collected and returned to the crank case.

But can you make the case for a typical 4 cycle engine used in most older trawlers, like the Lehman or Perkins. My buddy has a couple on his trawler and I don't see any fumes, soot or oil in the vent.

Even less so for a more modern engine like the Yanmar 6LY. I get a drop of oil out of the blowby tube every 10 hours or so. I just wash out the air filter element every 100 hours or so and all is good.

David
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:54 PM   #3
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Welcome to the forum.

I know that Air Seps are the cats meow for Detroit Diesels. They control blowby venting and all of the fumes, soot and oil is filtered, collected and returned to the crank case.

But can you make the case for a typical 4 cycle engine used in most older trawlers, like the Lehman or Perkins. My buddy has a couple on his trawler and I don't see any fumes, soot or oil in the vent.

Even less so for a more modern engine like the Yanmar 6LY. I get a drop of oil out of the blowby tube every 10 hours or so. I just wash out the air filter element every 100 hours or so and all is good.

David
David

A good question. But, if we asked all vendors to technically support their products for all applications it seems a bit over the top. Only about 25 products mentioned on TF come to mind, possibly headed by anchors and rodes. Or why do we support product XYZ for acid flushing engines, fuel filter/polishing setups, synthetic oil brand ABC or fuel stabilizer DEF. The list of products is as mentioned, long. Meaning of course the challenges can be and are many from doubters.

TF members have run off many well intentioned NAs, industry product suppliers and reps and brokers. I'd hate to see it happen to Air Sep who as you say have a product that works acceptably for many.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:33 AM   #5
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AIRSEP on typical 4 cycle engine

Thanks Sunchaser, that is a good point, but happy to reply regarding 4 cycle engines.

As in any outdoor sport or recreation, there are different levels of equipment owners and their expectations. While correct in saying that the AIRSEPS solved a multitude of problems for older Detroit Diesels including crankcase pressure issues, oil leaks etc..., the AIRSEP was later selected by factory engineers at Caterpillar, MTU, Cummins, and even Yanmar (older 6LY mechanical) because it proved that it certainly added value and improve the overall engine packages.

The benefits were different, and while no longer viewed as a "problem solver", the AIRSEP was viewed as a value added item that included some intake noise reduction, a true air filter instead of foam, to better protect the engine, and the elimination of ccv fumes to help in reduce the noxious smell often detected in the salon of a diesel powered vessel. No different than any added feature in an engine or automobile that some customers would be glad they had it...while others would argue they never saw a need for it. That said, the market interest in our product shows an increase in the number of boaters that want the best technology for their engine, as the engine is a key investment in owning a vessel. While it may not be for everybody, the customers that specify, insist, and buy the AIRSEP for 4 cycle engines are generally pleased they did, and welcomed an opportunity to enhanced their engine packages.

Sound reduction, longevity of air filter, quality of air filtration are all sound reasons AIRSEPS are specified on many engine models both domestic and international. The continued evolution of the diesel engine, and it's cleaner burn, will no doubt evolve the AIRSEP in future years to continue to complement the engine packages of tomorrow.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:01 PM   #6
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Cat 3208 435 hp with Air Seps

I have factory installed Air Seps on my 3208. My starboard engine shows no signs of oil weepage and measured with manometer, near zero crank case pressure at the dip stick tube. The port indicated between between .5 to 1.0 psi under the same conditions and has some weepage where the injector lines enter the heads. I have cleaned the Cat vent separators on the valve covers and installed new air and vent filters. Does the Air Sep create a negative pressure to draw crank case vapors out or only provide a vent into the intake? Is there a test or a way to check when the colesing foam is inhibiting flow? The only info I have found is replace after X years without any technical data.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:18 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
David
A good question. But, if we asked all vendors to technically support their products for all applications it seems a bit over the top.
Well, the Air Sep guy asked if he could help anyone with his product in his opening statement, so I asked him to justify his product for use in 80% of our trawler engines. I also stated that I don't see any need for it on the two engines I am intimately familiar with: the Perkins NA and the Yanmar 6LY.

His answer was clear and noted that there are other reasons for an Air Sep than to control the engine's vent.

Given that this was a specific vendor, posting in our commercial section that invited questions, I don't see how my question is over the top.

I learned something and I think that the discriminating reader learned something as well. Seems like that is the purpose of this forum.

David
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:29 PM   #8
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Cat 3208 435 hp with Air Seps

AB,

Thanks for the question. First you need to verify if you are measuring crankcase pressure in the correct units. You should be using a manometer showing "inches of water"....if PSI, that is not a good diagnostic scale, it may signal a bigger problem.

Once that is resolved, I would take readings at full or cruise RPM, and record reading with AIRSEP...then remove the breather hose temporarily from AIRSEP, the record crankcase pressures. This way you can see what teh difference is with AIRSEP connected. Next, for diagnostics...since you have an engine exhibiting no issues....swap out the the AIRSEP units. Port to Starboard..and vice versa. If the problem does not transfer to the "good" engine...then you need to look at other mechanical Port engine issues.

If the condition does transfer to the Starboard engine...then you need to look at the AIRSEP...how old is it, what is serial number...etc.. the material inside may be compromised.

In general the AIRSEP will reduce crankcase pressure...depending on engine model and condition of engine will determine near zero or negative. It is also important that your engine has a specific 3208 AIRSEP kit, and that it has the proper size air filter for your application. It may need further fine tuning, but keep in mind it has limitations and will not mask or correct a mechanical issue with the engine.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:17 PM   #9
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manometer vs psi

Thank you for the response.

The manometer was used initially to find out if there was vacuum or pressure. When I determined that the starboard was near zero and had pressure on the port, I went to a dampened, lab grade, 0-5 psi pressure gauge for the port as it is far easier to read when running. That is where the .5-1.0 psi came from. I have not made the cross switch of the Sep assemblies. I will most likely have to fabricate an adapter to attach the manometer to the inlet port on the Air Sep to see if I have any venturi effect. My engines used about 2 quarts oil each in 200 hrs. The keystone compression rings may not be sealing at the lower power setting I use. {1000-1200 rpm)

I will make the assembly switch and go from there.
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Old 04-05-2017, 05:29 PM   #10
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Cat 3208 435 hp with Air Seps

AB,

Sounds good. I would suggest skipping the adapter fabrication, and get the crankcase pressure at the dipstick tube using a short piece of tubing to connect the manometer. That's were all dealer and mechanics troubleshoot from...system vacuum will be vacuum, pressure pressure.

I only mention the manometer since the difference will be so slight, that a PSI gauge..may not cover the accuracy of say 2 inches of water.

Your absolutely right about the keystone rings...and if no other mechanical issues are present, and you run low power all the time. Switching to a slightly smaller filter element may improve things.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:01 PM   #11
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Just for clarification. I am not experiencing any engine compartment oil vapor contamination, just the slight weepage.

The purpose of the adapter for the manometer at the inlet to the Air Sep is to get an isolated reading through the internal venturi. If the readings are different between port and starboard Seps, not influenced by engine blow by, I will make the assumption that the internal element in the Sep is contaminated and make corrections.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:10 PM   #12
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Cat 3208 435 hp with Air Seps

AB,

Understood. Certainly you can try. Just be aware condition of air filter will directly influence venturi performance/magnitude.

Let me know how it works out.
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