Maritime Jobs, help with giving a 17 year old direction

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RonR

RonR

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I could use a little help in guiding my son. He is 17, going to graduate this year with his diploma and an AA. Currently enrolled in the Everett Community College ORCA program (Ocean Research College Academy).

He wants to work on Tug Boats, specifically to be a Captain on some point. He has been looking to attend the California State University Maritime Academy. Problems are this is a 4 year deal even if you have your AA, based on the availability of classes. He would come out as a 3rd Mate, not make much $$ and owe a fair bit in school (Mom and Dad are helping, but he will own 75% of the cost). He is fair with the tools but I don't see him working as an engineer. Wants to be above deck.

I am unsure of how the progression schedule works from 3rd Mate to Captain. And how hard is it to get on with a good company. He does not want to travel to the East Coast, prefers to stay on the West. Is fine with Sea time at this point in his life. Is not interested in the Coast Guard or Military at this time.

Schooling is easy for him, has been a 4.0 student through High School and College.

What other options are there? Do any of you, or do you know anyone that can give him the 101 on Tug Boat Company's. What Jobs are available and the average pay rate. My guess is that he will be at Sea for a few years and then want to bring it close to home and start a family at some point.

(key point here, he has never been out to sea, just PNW cruising, he has seen some bumpy rides, but its a world of difference when your in bad weather for days)

Back in the early 90's I worked for Foss Tug, did an Apprenticeship with them for outside machinist. I had a chance to go out a few times, and then decided it was not for me and moved on. I do not have any contacts, but will always remember Foss as a Loving Family that really took care of the people that took care of them.
 
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Working your way up can be long and tricky.

Friends at one company went to work for a different company out of state to get their towing records done by an instructor which our company didn't have..

Not sure how schools speed things along, seems like they do.

Mike Rowe has a fund that helps with training, may be worth a quick look.

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/
 
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Ron,

I graduated from CMA with a BS in Marine Engineering and my 3 rd Mates Unlimited in the 80’s. It’s a 4 year program as you note, but it goes quick and I personally think it is worth it to get your degree, and license. In my case, and many other people as well, we decided to shift shore side after a while of being at sea so having the degree and the license is something employers like. The pay for new graduates out of maritime academies is actually very good if you google it. Engineers in particular can work at so many different types of places. I didn’t have much money at the time (raised by a single mom and 4 kids) but did not find the tuition to be high. I also signed up for the USNR which provided funds while I was in school, but not sure how that program works these days. In summary, I think your son would enjoy the experience and have more options over the long run.

With the above said, I spent the last 30 years working a shore side job that had nothing to do with ships or maritime activities. There are folks on here that spent decades at sea and know much more about the topic than I do. They will likely chime in and provide some good input.

Whatever he decides, I wish him the best.
 
At age 17 I think he should plan to enter the maritime academy for the full ride and
take advantage of any scholarships there are.
It's quite possible that during school he will discover many more opportunities that
neither of you are aware of today.
Once at the academy he can get into MM&P for their input about job opportunities.

Good luck in his chosen career!
 
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Went back and reread original post.


Unlike many jobs...maritime...you go where the work is until you have a resume that gets you in anyplace...


Plus...tugboats? Towing, assisting ships, etc..etc...?


Or member Sailor of Fortune (Jack) may have some better info....


But my gut tells me the number of jobs on the East/Gulf coasts plus inland rivers and Great Lakes dwarfs West Coast jobs. Being picky I doubt is going to be a luxury for a decade or so after his training.
 
He might want to check into the Great Lakes Maritime Academy. It's a very small school, and with what he already has under his belt, he may be able to get through it in less than the full 4 years at other schools. The regiment is much more relaxed than somewhere like SUNY Maritime where I went, and he'll still end up with the same third mate unlimited license, which he can use anywhere.

Third mates with my company (not really tugs, but comparable in terms of pay) make $410 a day, plus overtime, holidays, and the odd bonus. A new third mate can reasonably expect to work 150 days in a season, possibly much more, which works out to 60k before taxes.

I think that's pretty average for the industry. Some places pay a lot more, and others, a lot less.

There are advantages to working your way up through the ranks without going to school. You make money while you gain experience and avoid the debt, but it takes a lot longer to move up, and you'll work a lot harder physically to get there.
 
RonR said:
I could use a little help in guiding my son. He is 17, going to graduate this year with his diploma and an AA. Currently enrolled in the Everett Community College ORCA program (Ocean Research College Academy).

He wants to work on Tug Boats, specifically to be a Captain on some point. He has been looking to attend the California State University Maritime Academy. Problems are this is a 4 year deal even if you have your AA, based on the availability of classes. He would come out as a 3rd Mate, not make much $$ and owe a fair bit in school (Mom and Dad are helping, but he will own 75% of the cost). He is fair with the tools but I don't see him working as an engineer. Wants to be above deck.

I am unsure of how the progression schedule works from 3rd Mate to Captain. And how hard is it to get on with a good company. He does not want to travel to the East Coast, prefers to stay on the West. Is fine with Sea time at this point in his life. Is not interested in the Coast Guard or Military at this time.

Schooling is easy for him, has been a 4.0 student through High School and College.

What other options are there? Do any of you, or do you know anyone that can give him the 101 on Tug Boat Company's. What Jobs are available and the average pay rate. My guess is that he will be at Sea for a few years and then want to bring it close to home and start a family at some point.

(key point here, he has never been out to sea, just PNW cruising, he has seen some bumpy rides, but its a world of difference when your in bad weather for days)

Back in the early 90's I worked for Foss Tug, did an Apprenticeship with them for outside machinist. I had a chance to go out a few times, and then decided it was not for me and moved on. I do not have any contacts, but will always remember Foss as a Loving Family that really took care of the people that took care of them.
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I have friends that went through the Mass maritime program and they have all done very well for themselves out of school. I also have a classmate that went to the US naval academy and became a destroyer captain and now works in the oil industry.. I also have a classmate who worked his way up on ferry boats and is now a super-yacht captain.



There are 6 maritime programs that come to mind; US merchant marine academy, USCG academy, Cal , Maine, Mass , and Texas A&M, I believe. Maybe you could count the US naval academy. If he attends any of those schools, he will get the hours he needs there and learn a lot and make lots of connections in the industry (plus a bachelors of Science degree)..

If he goes and is a deckhand on a tug, he is not likely to get the job of 'tug' captain in 4 years.

If he wants a maritime career, he should apply to the CG and US merchant marine academy if he is a good student. Behind that, I would go Texas A&M , then the other 3. The maritime world is your oyster if you graduate from either of those prestigious schools. Plus if you go to the CG you can serve on the Eagle.
 
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bligh said:
I have friends that went through the Mass maritime program and they have all done very well for themselves out of school. I also have a classmate that went to the US naval academy and became a destroyer captain and now works in the oil industry.. I also have a classmate who worked his way up on ferry boats and is now a super-yacht captain.



There are 6 maritime programs that come to mind; US merchant marine academy, USCG academy, Cal , Maine, Mass , and Texas A&M, I believe. Maybe you could count the US naval academy too. If he attends any of those schools, he will get the hours he needs there and learn a lot and make lots of connections in the industry (plus a bachelors of Science degree)..

If he goes and is a deckhand on a tug, he is not likely to get the job of 'tug' captain in 4 years.

If he wants a maritime career, he should apply to the CG and US merchant marine academy if he is a good student. Behind that, I would go Texas A&M , then the other 3. The maritime world is your oyster if you graduate from either of those prestigious schools. Plus if you go to the CG you can serve on the Eagle.
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You forgot SUNY Maritime. :)
 
Hi Dave,

Didn't know you were a SUNY Grad. Spent 2 weeks there for a reserve duty many years ago. Cool campus.

To parallel the OP's original question; how realistic is it to work up the hawse for a deck or engineer position on a ship or large tug, vs. getting licensed at a school?

I had someone ask me this same question a few years ago. He was weighing an academy vs. trying to get work on tugs, and the latter seemed very difficult to get your foot in the door. I guess that is why I think the educational route is better if someone is willing to put the class room time in. Quicker access to the field of choice, and the ability to change jobs easier to a shoreside gig if needed.
 
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Fletcher500 said:
Hi Dave,

Didn't know you were a SUNY Grad. Spent 2 weeks there for a reserve duty many years ago. Cool campus.

To parallel the OP's original question; how realistic is it to work up the hawse for a deck or engineer position on a ship or large tug, vs. getting licensed at a school?

I had someone ask me this same question a few years ago. He was weighing an academy vs. trying to get work on tugs, and the latter seemed very difficult to get your foot in the door. I guess that is why I think the educational route is better if someone is willing to put the class room time in. Quicker access to the field of choice, and the ability to change jobs to a shoreside gig if needed.
Click to expand...

Yessir, class of '06. Honestly, if I had it to do over, I might have gone to Cal instead. Sounds like a much nicer place to be.

I can't speak for anywhere but my own company, but opportunities for working up the hawespipe have been getting fewer and farther between over the years, especially for people starting with an ordinary seaman's ticket. Back in the olden days, when there were 45 dudes on the boat, there were a lot more unlicensed positions available. There would have been four or five unlicensed positions in the engine room, and the same number on deck. Due to automation, increased efficiency, and cost cutting, crews have been cut in half. Some of our units are only carrying 15 people. There might only be two or three unlicensed positions on the engineering track, and maybe only one or two on the deck side.

It's definitely still possible. Turnover is notoriously high among deckhands, as the hours can be long, and the work can be hard. Many quit or upgrade as soon as possible. Seems like we always have a new guy on deck.
 
Thank you everyone for the replies.
He will be applying at Cal in a few weeks. With a plan B-C-D.
 
I realize the four year program is expensive and time consuming. It's like any college, except in one way. A graduate of any of the US Maritime Colleges is virtually guaranteed a good job. I highly recommend Cal Maritime but have employees who got excellent educations at SUNY and Massachusetts and I'm sure the other schools are very good.

Now, if you want to be a professional in the industry, a Maritime College is very useful in my mind. Absolutely critical for an engineer, very useful for a Captain. This is especially true for commercial work. It's easier to get into yachts without.

Also, I want to change his direction slightly. I would not go to school to be a Tug Captain. I would go to school to be a Captain and then look for a job on a Tug. The difference is keeping open to the entire industry and recognizing that if Tugs aren't his thing ultimately there are plenty of other directions to turn. A graduate from a major maritime school will be well rounded and prepared then to learn a specific job.

We have an engineer who is a brilliant and hilarious person. She went to Cal Maritime, is an incredible athlete. Did Crew and Water Polo there. At heart, she's a Valley Girl Nerd Genius if you can imagine. She is a scratch golfer as well as she grew up playing in San Diego. She got training on the school's ship and then did a summer on a Coast Guard cutter and did some commercial time. From there she went to grad school in New Orleans and then worked in Gulf offshore work for Chouest with the clear understanding it was for a year or two to build sea time. He tried to talk her into staying but recommended her to us. Actually said something about us being crazy enough she'd be a perfect fit. By now, of course, she was a Valley Girl Nerd Genius Cajun Offshore Sailor. First boat she worked on for us had 1360 hp MAN's. Big engines? No. Smallest she'd ever worked with. But she had the background to learn anything quickly. Fact is she can work anywhere in any boat or ship related industry at this point. That's what an incredible education can do.

None of our captains went to a Maritime College while all our Engineers did. However, our captains have none of the training for the commercial world. They'd have a very difficult time getting into it. And in the yachting world they've been fortunate to advance as they have. The average Cal Maritime major in Marine Transportation earns a starting salary of $70,000.

I'll also say that Maritime Colleges (7 in the US) do the best job of preparing students for jobs of any schools. Far better than the average four year college. For yachting perhaps getting deck jobs and going somewhere like MPT will get you there, but not for commercial. Even for yachting a full program isn't cheap and then you start on a deck job earning $40,000 if you're lucky and years to advance to a captain's job.
 
I want to give you and your son my input. This coming from a career as a hawse piper with a limited tonnage credential and a high school education.

He would do best to go to the academy for many reasons.

1 Almost all mariners eventually want to go ashore. Without a higher degree options are very limited.

2 Working up from small tonnage to unlimited is long, slow and expensive. He'll pay for much of the required training and certifications beyond the basic credential out of pocket.

3 As a holder of a 3rd mate unlimited he can if he wishes sail under tonnage including as Master of a 100 ton vessel.

I'll also add that the engine room is a better career path. When my employer was needing to crew up from dead ship they had a stack of resumes from deckies inches thick. They had to looking for engineers.

When it's time to come ashore engineers have almost endless opportunities. Duckies scramble for jobs or leave the maritime industry all together.

He doesn't have to be good with tools to be a good engineer. The school will train him. And as he moves up the ladder towards chief engineer it becomes more of a management job.

RonR said:
I could use a little help in guiding my son. He is 17, going to graduate this year with his diploma and an AA. Currently enrolled in the Everett Community College ORCA program (Ocean Research College Academy).

He wants to work on Tug Boats, specifically to be a Captain on some point. He has been looking to attend the California State University Maritime Academy. Problems are this is a 4 year deal even if you have your AA, based on the availability of classes. He would come out as a 3rd Mate, not make much $$ and owe a fair bit in school (Mom and Dad are helping, but he will own 75% of the cost). He is fair with the tools but I don't see him working as an engineer. Wants to be above deck.

I am unsure of how the progression schedule works from 3rd Mate to Captain. And how hard is it to get on with a good company. He does not want to travel to the East Coast, prefers to stay on the West. Is fine with Sea time at this point in his life. Is not interested in the Coast Guard or Military at this time.

Schooling is easy for him, has been a 4.0 student through High School and College.

What other options are there? Do any of you, or do you know anyone that can give him the 101 on Tug Boat Company's. What Jobs are available and the average pay rate. My guess is that he will be at Sea for a few years and then want to bring it close to home and start a family at some point.

(key point here, he has never been out to sea, just PNW cruising, he has seen some bumpy rides, but its a world of difference when your in bad weather for days)

Back in the early 90's I worked for Foss Tug, did an Apprenticeship with them for outside machinist. I had a chance to go out a few times, and then decided it was not for me and moved on. I do not have any contacts, but will always remember Foss as a Loving Family that really took care of the people that took care of them.
Click to expand...
 
All good advice, I will show him this info tonight, thank you everyone.
Its one thing to hear it from Dad... and another from people in the industry.
 
RonR said:
All good advice, I will show him this info tonight, thank you everyone.
Its one thing to hear it from Dad... and another from people in the industry.
Click to expand...

I would also add that engineer is more in demand than deck. You leave college as a 3rd Engineer. Still not a job for everyone.
 
I will add one more component regarding the engineering route at a maritime academy - hands on training, and lots of it. They taught us how to weld, machine on old school lathes before we could program on a CNC axis machine, etc. Our training ship was steam back then and you had to get under the deck plates and trace every system, one line draw it, and turn it in to an upper classman to be graded. Lube oil, condensate, and many others. I believe all of the schools now have a diesel powered training ship which is a good thing. All of this definitely helps tie the academic theory to the practical side. The skills they taught me are mostly gone now, but I still look back with fond memories. I am biased, but I do think these schools have a lot to offer young people in order to get a job immediately upon graduation.
 
Fletcher500 said:
I will add one more component regarding the engineering route at a maritime academy - hands on training, and lots of it. They taught us how to weld, machine on old school lathes before we could program on a CNC axis machine, etc. Our training ship was steam back then and you had to get under the deck plates and trace every system, one line draw it, and turn it in to an upper classman to be graded. Lube oil, condensate, and many others. I believe all of the schools now have a diesel powered training ship which is a good thing. All of this definitely helps tie the academic theory to the practical side. The skills they taught me are mostly gone now, but I still look back with fond memories. I am biased, but I do think these schools have a lot to offer young people in order to get a job immediately upon graduation.
Click to expand...

The ol' Empire State VI is still a steamer! She ought to be around for a few more years yet, too.
 
It'll be the first time in the school's history that they've had a brand new purpose built training ship. All the others have been converted commercial tonnage.

These kids won't know how good they got it. Why back when I were your age, we used t'shovel coal 26 hour a day, and when we were done, we were happy to get a smack in the mouth and a handful of rocks to eat, and we PAID for it! LUXURY!
 
I'm surprised California Maritime doesn't at least give partial credit for an AA degree. I know Maine Maritime Academy does. That might be an option and it is a fantastic school with all kinds of marine related opportunities. However, it is in Maine during the winter so there's that too...
 
My son graduated from CMA in 1995 with a third engineer ticket. He is now a chief engineer on a Maersk ship, with unlimited horsepower. steam, diesel, and gas turbine endorsements. Started out as a DD engineer on an off-shore supply boat in the Oil Patch, realized the money was in bluewater, and has been bluewater ever since. He tells me most of the crewpeople he meets are from the Maine Maritime Academy, while the least are from CMA.
 
I am also a Hawse Piper, and held every license starting at 6 pax up to Master Unlimited upon Oceans. I got my 6 pax license when I was 20, and didn't get my Unlimited Masters until I was 60. It was a slow, expensive way to move, but it is how I did it. After I joind aa union the cosst wasn't as bad as the union paid my continuing education as well as upgrades.

I have sailed with Mates from all the different acadameies, most good, some bad and a bit in between. The worst ones I had came from Kings Point, and because I was a Hawse Piper thought they were better than me. At the time I was a Chief Mate and worked hard, but made very good money.

Another thing to conssider is when you get your 2nd Mates ticket, you can take the crossover test to also have a 1600 ton Masters license. Before I started sailing under my 3rd Mate licensee I sailed with a guy that held only a 1600 Ton license Upon Oceans. he tried to convience me that was the way to go, but another friend, told me about the cross over, and I decided That the double license gave me a better chance for employment.

Bottom line I have no regrets, but wish I had listened to people when I was coming out of High School and done it the school path.
 
paramount said:
I'm surprised California Maritime doesn't at least give partial credit for an AA degree. I know Maine Maritime Academy does. That might be an option and it is a fantastic school with all kinds of marine related opportunities. However, it is in Maine during the winter so there's that too...
Click to expand...

I had previously attended a UC and Jr College prior to entering CMA so I had two years of college. They were pretty good about giving me credit for past classes; however, the quickest you could get out was 3 years with past college credits instead of the usual 4. Quite of a few us had done this. My roommate was 28 when he graduated. Again, anything I have written in this string is from the 80’s so any young people who may be reading this should confirm with the school directly.
 
My daughter graduated Texas A&M with a BS &MS in Ocean Engr. Those papers can go anywhere.

He sounds like the more hands on type. That would be A&M Galveston. He could do that and the reserves and it would be paid for. Go anywhere and do anything.

The A&M mafia is very strong in the marine and offshore industries. It is very common to have a company president slot a graduate into a fast track program. Very conservative school, Galveston more so than main campus. He should at least make a phone call and visit campus.

I am also a graduate, so slightly biased....
 
Choices said:
My daughter graduated Texas A&M with a BS &MS in Ocean Engr. Those papers can go anywhere.

He sounds like the more hands on type. That would be A&M Galveston. He could do that and the reserves and it would be paid for. Go anywhere and do anything.

The A&M mafia is very strong in the marine and offshore industries. It is very common to have a company president slot a graduate into a fast track program. Very conservative school, Galveston more so than main campus. He should at least make a phone call and visit campus.

I am also a graduate, so slightly biased....
Click to expand...

Let's duly note that the A&M Mafia is only in a small part of the country although a very busy commercial area. Elsewhere, not so into Mafias and may even yell "Go Horns."

I'm sure the other schools have their own group that looks for others from their school. Good place to insert the reminder, these are the seven maritime academies in the US:

Academy Address Phone Number URL

United States Merchant Marine Academy Kings Point, NY 11024-1699 (866) 546-4778; (516) 773-5390 (fax) http://www.usmma.edu

California State University Maritime Academy 200 Maritime Academy Drive Vallejo, CA 94590 (707) 654-1000; (707) 654-1013 (fax) Home - CSUM

Great Lakes Maritime Academy Northwestern Michigan College 1701 East Front Street Traverse City, MI 49686-3061 (231) 995-1200 or 1-800-0566 X 5 X 1203; (231) 995-1318 (fax) http://www.nmc.edu/maritime/

Maine Maritime Academy Pleasant Street Castine, ME 04220 800-464-6565; 326-4311 (switchboard); (207) 326-2110 (fax) Maine Maritime Academy - A COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING, MANAGEMENT, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION

Massachusetts Maritime Academy 101 Academy Drive Buzzards Bay, MNA 02532 (508) 830-5000; (508) 830-5004 http://www.maritime.edu

SUNY Maritime College 6 Pennyfield Avenue Fort Schuyler, NY 10465-4198 (718) 409-7200; (718) 409-7261 (fax) Home | SUNY Maritime College

Texas A&M Maritime Academy 200 Seawolf Parkway P.O. Box 1675 Galveston, TX 77553-1675 (409) 740-4411 http://www.tamug.edu/corps/
Last updated: Wednesday, June 17, 2020

All are excellent with their own following and their own specialties. While they all offer tie ins with military reserve programs, they are optional on all except the US Merchant Marine Academy.

Holding no allegiance to any of them, the Aggies turn out well too. There are other schools offering programs but not with the same clout in the market. Some I would recommend for graduate work but not undergraduate. There is real value to the seven programs above and I'd encourage anyone to check those programs carefully and compare and determine which fits them best. Also, check costs, any instate tuition options, scholarship programs, and work-study.

One example of other programs is the University of New Orleans. They have an incredible program in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering and are well regarded in the Gulf Coast building and servicing segments. We have an employee who went there and did summer work and then worked for 18 months with Chouest afterwards. What is unique is they offer in-state tuition to students from 15 states.
 
I have seen academy grads (pick your academy) in higher positions giving favor to fresh grads of the same academy. Another reason it's a challenge to progress as a hawse piper.
 
Fishing Alaska

Big boat fishing (Bering Sea) in Alaska is always looking for good young guys. I'm retired after 34 years (30 as Capt.) Pays well, time off. You make $ while you learn and work your way up. My son is 37, put himself through University debt free, by fishing. He's a relief Capt. now His 3 buddies did Maritime school, they are just now getting to his pay scale (as unlimited masters) and retiring school debts.
 
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Maritime Careers

Many near me (father, brother, cousin, many friends) went both to Mass and Maine Maritime Academies. All of them got good scholarship packages as these schools get a lot of merchant marine industry support... They need a skilled work force!

There are many other types of technical marine schools in the northeast some that are very hand's on mastering all systems. They show up to all the boat shows (remember boat shows?!).

Taking one of the many courses to get one's Captain's License (6-Pack or Master) will show employers that he is serious. Then he just needs sea time to actually get licensed. It will also get him networked in with the community of people. When I took my course, almost every class there was an announcement of some company looking for hired help. Most all of his time on family boats can count towards sea time. Family members can certify the number of days with 4+ hours aboard.

From what I hear this type of work (and in some cases pay) is not quite as romantic as many make it out to be. But, if he truly loves it, he can take the good with the bad like any other profession.
 
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