What's a next-gen anchor?

[Peter B]

As long as you're not going a size up from a size up or sizes up. I everybody did that we'd soon have ships anchors on boats.

I'm asking you to notice that there are a number of next-gen anchors in the above test. One dosn't need last months product to hold your boat.

Actually Eric, with all due respect, apart from the Spade, I don't think one would call any of the rest listed as next-gen anchors. Most are quite old designs, or just later adaptations/modifications of older designs..? So that series of tests is really no help with regard to comparisons with todays next-gen anchors. Mate, you nearly reproduced the whole article there...

......That would suggest that all anchors at a variety of scopes probably has an optimum scope. I think every anchor has a scope that is optimum assuming that variables are considered. Results would be variable especially re rode and it’s weight. But I’m thinking a scope of 6-1 to 7-1 should be best for optimum holding power. So yes I’m saying 8-1 or 9-1 wouldn’t show any gain but actually a loss in holding power. In the worst storm I’ve been in we were at 5-1.

I think what you are describing here Eric is the difference between a mixed chain/rope rode, and all chain. Sure, excessive rode out with mixed is probably superfluous beyond a certain length, because the stretch is the protection against jerking on the anchor itself, whereas with all chain, the sheer weight of the rode & the catenary it produces is the protection against a direct lifting force on the anchor, because there is no effective stretch. In the case of the latter then, more is always good, but I can accept your premise that with mixed rode there is probably a practical limit beyond which no purpose is served.
Cheers,

 

[ghost]

I still would like to get one of the “new” designs, but since I rarely have issues with the current anchor, it’s pretty far down the list.

I still have a tremendous amount of skepticism surrounding the “new” designs, because I’m well trained in the challenges of humans subjectively assessing pretty much anything, and second because I can not help but notice that simultaneous with the success of the “new” anchors the recommended weight of what people go to simultaneously has increased. You simply can’t make an assessment while increasing sizing at the same time! Yet, it happens frequently and contributes to the organic consensus.

I replaced a 35 pound anchor with 65 pound of same design and magically my holding increased. The recommended anchor in the “new” style is around 75 pounds and a size up from there if you go “one size larger” thinking to get to the top of the recommended range. Compared to the 35 pound I started with and survived Alaska trips by the prior owner, it’s night and day. It would theoretically exceed the rating of my windlass, except I have a Plath and after talking with them, they literally laughed on the phone at their historically published limit and said not to worry even a little.

Well, call me skeptical, but real data is really hard to come by. Anchoring tests data has been a godsend, but has often been taken for conclusions instead of empirical. Not the same thing. Humans just want to extrapolate what they do know into what they want to know. True for what we believe about the new, and true for what we believe about the old. Makes the delta seem much wider than what it is in reality.

The only thing I know for sure. If you see someone who is absolutely confident in the right answer, especially if their rationale is “because I know more than everyone else”, beware. True experts are conflicted, not confident.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Peter B,
Yes the Spade stands out as positively new gen and matches my theory that new-gen anchor were ushered in with the Spade. Who knows .. the early Max anchors could have been flat .. Most new gen anchors are concave and it can be taken that Spade started the new-gen ... age?

But the Hydro-Dyne I think is new-gen .. but a failed design. It recorded some very impressive numbers but lacked consistency. Much as my Next gen XYZ. The original (pic) was a great performer but was hard to set.

But the Max is a bit of a mystery. I have no idea how new or old it is. Nor do I have any idea if the Spade's concave fluke was part of the Max design. If it pre-dates the Spade the concave fluke may have been an original or a design influenced by the concavity. The concavity of the Max flukes cost money to do and that required motivation. But were the speculation or knowledge came from is beyond me. So there's a chance the Max started the common practice of starting out w a concave fluke. The early Max anchors could have been flat. Something cause the Max man to go w flat or curved/concave. Fly stuff of course but a bit interesting.

But re the scope of my post (haha) I'm disappointed you don't agree but I expect very few to confess that there may be something to it. I wouldn't bet the farm but I do think it's so. However I mean w the same rode. But you belled up to the bar w an opinion .. thanks.

 

[BruceK]

Steve SV Panope`s tests showed lessening hold capacity as scope was shortened,would not the corollary be likely,increasing scope increases hold capacity. Why it might lessen above 7:1 is not explained.
As the owner of a next or present gen Super Sarca, I ask myself, has provided better hold than the CQR it replaced? Every anchoring is different, making comparisons hard, most of my confidence it is better comes from Steve`s tests. The CQR coped with tide and wind reversals same as the SS does,(and with 35 knots on the nose), but I know from Steve`s tests it`s much better at resetting. And that it copes surprisingly well with shortened scope, indeed I proved that obliviously the day the crew(we had words after) didn`t put out a commanded 3.5:1, incl an overnight,but only until the wind got up next day.

 

[Art]

Three important items every boat owner wants regarding an anchor:

1. Anchor that sets easily, quickly, deeply and lastingly into sea bottom

2. Anchor that resets similarly to # 1 when 180 degree reversal of pull on rode is encountered

3. Anchor that is retrievable out of and away from its set in sea bottom

Pretty simple!

Now - Go find it!!

 

[ranger58sb]

Name
Supermax (Adj. shank) 0'0"
Supermax 4'
Spade Model 80 0'0"

What Happened
Turned in horizontal plane, moved very little
Rolled out, flipped on back, dragged on side
Aligned to new pull with little movement
How Far Moved Before Reset

Eric, trying to put together what looks like must have been two columns of related stuff...

Is the above the right match?

-Chris

 

[Nomad Willy]

Chris,
I had so much trouble copying and pasting the artical I did little reading.
I see your example seems related .. but then not fitting properly. I’ll haf’ta go back and read to see if it’s all mucked up. Could be the copy for the Max w the adj shank got mixed uo w the rigid shank results. ??
Perhaps Soo Valley can post the whole article .. w pics. Some of these anchors were indeed interesting.

Art I see your reasoning .. break something complicated down into easy to cope w parts and add it up.
But w me I’m usually not in a position to need to choose an anchor. I have plenty. I’m into figuring them out and understanding what they do .. or don’t do. But we all haf’ta doo the choosing at some time.

Bruce,
I’m glad somebody got into the scope question. I think basic anchor design like throat angle, fluke shape, CG and orientation device like a roll bar. All of this should cause variations in how the anchor works at various scopes. Angle of pull disregarding rode variations. Like pulling anchor w a light cable. I’m sure the throat angle is involved in the tendency to break out at long scope. But at the same time it seems like once the rode is straight and flat on the seafloor it shouldn’t change w increased scope. So acceptable thinking and typical understanding is that at some point (perhaps near 10-1 scope or thereabouts any increase in scope should not elict a change in holding power.
But how far out does this flat lining occur?
Got a root canal going today so won’t get back till late in the day.

Sorry no time for edit.

 

[SteveK]

Eric, trying to put together what looks like must have been two columns of related stuff...

Is the above the right match?

-Chris

look at this link
https://www.spadeanchorusa.com/selecting-rope-and-chain.php

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks, Steve. Seems like the same list of anchors, but the columns on the right are different...

I'm guessing the table Eric posted means the Adustable SuperMAX and the Spade both moved 0'0". On your link the Spade came in 1st, and the Adjustable SuperMAX 11th... which seems a bit discordant with 0'0" movement. On your link, the Spade came in 6th in one column, Adjustable SuperMAX 3rd (and the rigid one came 2nd)... another seeming discord. OTOH, maybe all that just proves I can't figure out how to read the table.

Must be an older set of tests, too; no Rocna, Anchor Right, Manson, Mantus, Ultra, etc included. Maybe Practical Sailor's original publication date will be a hint about when "New" or Next" Gen began...

-Chris

 

[SteveK]

I will wait for Eric to reply. All I did was go to the test he originally referred to but could not copy and paste. I could not either but then found it on the Spade web site which refers to the sailor tests.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Like the SuperMax didn’t move .. listed as 0’ 0”. The regular fixed shank SuperMax moved 4” in the process of re-setting.

The whole article in in the PS files. But they apparently don’t want people to get it w/o subscribing to the magazine .. or something similar to that. I’m guessing.
But most all the text is in my #82 post.
On TF I usually post and browse on my i-pad but most of my pics and downloads are on my old i-Mac. And my brain is only about 10% connected to both.

 

[Peter B]

Three important items every boat owner wants regarding an anchor:

1. Anchor that sets easily, quickly, deeply and lastingly into sea bottom

2. Anchor that resets similarly to # 1 when 180 degree reversal of pull on rode is encountered

3. Anchor that is retrievable out of and away from its set in sea bottom

Pretty simple!

Now - Go find it!!

I did Art. As I and others keep tellin' yuh. It's the Super Sarca, or, for some, the Sarca Excel. For some others it's the Rocna, or Manson Supreme, and then there's the Rocna Vulcan, Manson Boss, and Spade. Are ye not listenin' son..?

 

[izikalvo]

We are playing with a new idea since anchors becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

 

[Nomad Willy]

I don’t have a windlass but my boat is 30’ X 16,000lbs.
I’ve modified tried and used various anchors 12 to 35lbs and for my boat it it looks like 15lbs is close to the lower limit for an anchor. My modifications have gravitated toward minimizing everything (but the rode) but minimizing the fluke less (or mostly not at all) than other parts. But I can’t see getting below 12lbs with a steel anchor and that I may probably haven't achieved yet. Steel wire rope is an interesting thought.

I’ve always used nylon line but there I’ve used heavy .. not light line for a 30’ boat of 17000lbs. Never even thought of light line on the rode. I have a Manson Supreme trimmed and modified down to 12lbs but it hasn’t been good enough .. yet. Had a new idea for it two days ago. But I’ve slowed down on the experimenting.

But of course having an experimental leaning I’d like to read about what you’ve got and are thinking about. But it sounds like you have a light anchor AND rode. In order to do what it sounds like you’re doing you’d need a light alloy anchor and kevlar (light) line for the rode. But I don’t know if kevlar is stretchable. That light combination would in my opinion put you in a very grey area for setting and having a useably short scope.
Also with an aluminum Fortress anchor, minimal chain (1/4” x 4’) and an exotic line (perhaps kevlar but I know almost nothing about exotic line) one could do your “anchoring by hand on a 40’ vessel”) but I fail to see it as consistent on various bottoms and at short scope like 3-1 or 4-1. Typical scope in my area. Dosn’t look possible to me. Only an experimenter like me would attempt to use it.

Kinetic nylon?

So yes I’d like to see what you’ve got.

 

[rslifkin]

From my perspective, on a 40 foot boat, I'd want a windlass for convenience regardless of how light and easy to retrieve the ground tackle is. Having to hand-haul and then stow 200 feet of rode (not uncommon for my typical local anchorages) sounds far more annoying to me than just having the windlass haul it into the anchor locker.

 

[Art]

We are playing with a new idea since anchors becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

Due to weight-load I have always felt [and continue to feel] that a full chain rode, in its fullest extent, on bow of boats 40' minus creates too much boat-trim interference - i.e. full chain rode on 40' minus boats is a basic nonstarter.

Therefore, I have always used initial chain lead to the anchor's shank with three strand nylon to follow. This mixture of rode product can be used very effectively with or without lightweight anchors; as long as the anchor design provides quick setting, good holding power and fast reversal reset in altering direction of current or wind.

Going way back in my boating history... 1950's that is... my dad actually used manilla anchor line. That rode was really rough on your hands while "playing" it out to gain acceptable scope [and while handling the rode to feed it back into rode locker during anchor retrieval]. Back then we had no sort of winch [windlass] on the bow.

With that said: From early 60's onward my family began using three strand nylon rode to chain lead to anchor shank with a windlass [basically a multi ton pulling power winch] on bow for rode intake assistance when needed.

See photo. That's an absolute-exact duplicate to the original I located on CL... when the one on our 1977 Tollycraft's bow bit the bullet due to saltwater spray corison factors on its structural frame. I installed it about a year ago. Works great and should outlast me!

 

[Art]

I did Art. As I and others keep tellin' yuh. It's the Super Sarca, or, for some, the Sarca Excel. For some others it's the Rocna, or Manson Supreme, and then there's the Rocna Vulcan, Manson Boss, and Spade. Are ye not listenin' son..?

"son" - LOL - And Thanks!!

 

[psneeld]

I think all chain on any boat depends on a few things...like how much, what size, is the boat designed and fitted out with a bow that can handle it, etc...etc....

 

[Nomad Willy]

I’ve posted how all chain is not ideal at all and should never be employed may many times and am reluctant to get into it again other to say it’s not smart to have chain on the upper part of the rode. It’s convenient. That’s all. It does no good, little good and possibly even harm..

What psneeld says is right. For a 40’ boat (and for most others) you need some chain. If you’re old like me you’ll definitely need a winch w a gypsy to retrieve the rode. But you’ll need a splice w/o a reel drum winch like the fishermen have. They use two sizes of chain and about 1/2 of the rode in nylon line. That’s the ideal rode but it takes a $3000 winch and some deck space to do it. Also your days of going to yacht club events w your boat will be mostly over.

But for yachty type boats and people you need the all chain to have one kind of rode that fits your wildcat. That’s why trawler guys have all chain. Some smart guys will have the splice and a combination rode.
Most all fishermen w 40’ boats have a reel winch. They have a choice .. but essentially never choose a yachty winch and all one size of chain. Why? It’s not as logical, or effective as what they do use. Can’t recall ever seeing a yachty winch on a fishboat.
Sorry .... I wasn't going to comment.

 

[psneeld]

Or one can just follow conventional wisdom outside these TF anchor posts which abound in opinion that relies little on scientifically based fact or scientific fact in the vacuum of paper physics and not how many operate their boats.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Re your post 106 .....
Art that’s a “Power Winch” isn’t it?
Essentially the same as I’ve got on Willy. Our “Endurance Marine” Capstan winch has planetary gears though. My other winch (essentially the same as yours) had the two gear drive (one tiny little gear and a big one about 7” in dia. The little gear broke. My line tends to walk off the drum though and I don’t like that.

 

[Ventana]

We are playing with a new idea since anchors becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched?

We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft.

what do you think?

I don’t have the funds to play with the idea, but I think an alloy Spade anchor and a mixed rode would be a great combination. The anchor would have the fluke area for good holding and the whole setup could be light enough for retrieval by hand.
There can be all kinds of arguments against an alloy Spade, not enough weight for setting, reduced tip weight.... but I’ve never seen testing or heard real world experience to back up any of that.

 

[Ventana]

I’ve posted how all chain is not ideal at all and should never be employed may many times and am reluctant to get into it again other to say it’s not smart to have chain on the upper part of the rode. It’s convenient. That’s all. It does no good, little good and possibly even harm..

What psneeld says is right. For a 40’ boat (and for most others) you need some chain. If you’re old like me you’ll definitely need a winch w a gypsy to retrieve the rode. But you’ll need a splice w/o a reel drum winch like the fishermen have. They use two sizes of chain and about 1/2 of the rode in nylon line. That’s the ideal rode but it takes a $3000 winch and some deck space to do it. Also your days of going to yacht club events w your boat will be mostly over.

But for yachty type boats and people you need the all chain to have one kind of rode that fits your wildcat. That’s why trawler guys have all chain. Some smart guys will have the splice and a combination rode.
Most all fishermen w 40’ boats have a reel winch. They have a choice .. but essentially never choose a yachty winch and all one size of chain. Why? It’s not as logical, or effective as what they do use. Can’t recall ever seeing a yachty winch on a fishboat.
Sorry .... I wasn't going to comment.

Here is where my opinion would differ. I think from a performance perspective there is absolutely no reason to use anything but all chain with a snubber. The negatives are weight in the bow or cost, but not performance.
As far as commercial fishing boats, they are a poor example, as I think most of them use what was on the boat when they bought it, or what all the other boats have. It is interesting to note that a couple of boats in the fleet here have switched to a Rocna or Manson for their anchor. The whispers have already started of how much better they work. A couple of good fishing seasons here where guys are looking for tax write offs at the end of the year and I would expect to start seeing more of these anchors on the commercial boats.

 

[Art]

While I continue national and international patent work in another business of mine's products... I already hold patents on products...

For a "New Age" 21st Century anchor design... I'm about to originate a provisional with U.S. PTO. This anchor design is little to nothing like any anchor item previously discussed on TF.

Be pleased to reveal it's properties once patent protections are in place.

I can say before filing a provisional with PTO - My design always sets, will not pull out until you want it to and how many times while anchored the current or wild alters a boat's direction is of no concern.

Interesting hey!!

 

[Nomad Willy]

I don’t have the funds to play with the idea, but I think an alloy Spade anchor and a mixed rode would be a great combination. The anchor would have the fluke area for good holding and the whole setup could be light enough for retrieval by hand.
There can be all kinds of arguments against an alloy Spade, not enough weight for setting, reduced tip weight.... but I’ve never seen testing or heard real world experience to back up any of that.

I’ve seen anchor tests that included both steel and alloy Spades and the steel version out-performed the alloy by a considerable margin every time. If I was choosing between the two I’d probably choose a smaller steel Spade.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ventanna wrote;
“Here is where my opinion would differ. I think from a performance perspective there is absolutely no reason to use anything but all chain with a snubber. The negatives are weight in the bow or cost, but not performance.”

With any anchoring system you pay w weight and money. And you get X performance. And half of an all chain rode is useless .. the boat end.
Weight in the bow is necessary of course but one can choose where to put it. Weight in the rode close to the anchor is golden but weight up close to the bow is worthless. Put nylon up there and w the weight you save .. put it in the anchor or the lower rode. The anchor would be the most beneficial place for the weight but all chain is a waste of money and more importantly holding power for your anchoring rig. The upper part of the rode in chain is just dead weight .. of no use to anybody.

 

[Peter B]

We are playing with a new idea since anchors becoming lighter, would you consider using a new-gen light anchor with 10-meter chain and the rest of the rode be a kinetic Nylon rope that can be stretched? We estimate that this kind of setup will dismiss the usage of a windlass with boats up to 40ft. What do you think?

I wouldn't even think about it at all, sorry. I'm with rslifkin below. To me, after manhandling anchors for years, and through two sailboats, the sweetest thing about getting a power cruiser was to be able to drop and retrieve the anchor by flicking a switch from the comfort and protection of the cabin helm..!

From my perspective, on a 40 foot boat, I'd want a windlass for convenience regardless of how light and easy to retrieve the ground tackle is. Having to hand-haul and then stow 200 feet of rode (not uncommon for my typical local anchorages) sounds far more annoying to me than just having the windlass haul it into the anchor locker.

Absolutely agree with the above.

While I continue national and international patent work in another business of mine's products... I already hold patents on products... For a "New Age" 21st Century anchor design... I'm about to originate a provisional with U.S. PTO. This anchor design is little to nothing like any anchor item previously discussed on TF.
Be pleased to reveal it's properties once patent protections are in place.
I can say before filing a provisional with PTO - My design always sets, will not pull out until you want it to and how many times while anchored the current or wild alters a boat's direction is of no concern.

Interesting hey!!

Art, we can hardly wait..! This we have to see, eh guys..? A new and nigh-on infallible next-gen anchor...wow...just wow, Art.

 

[psneeld]

I do not believe the upper part of an all chain rode is useless or negative....it may or may not add to holding power of the anchor.

I dont think it negates any power though.

And it seems to allow for needing less scope in deep enough water...just yesterday I was reading a book on anchoring where it highlights that.

The only real negative is cost and weight which many trade for convenience....obviously at a given size and smaller ground tackle where a windlass is not used...that convenience beco m.h es just more preference.

 

[Art]

Originally Posted by Art View Post #
While I continue national and international patent work in another business of mine's products... I already hold patents on products... For a "New Age" 21st Century anchor design... I'm about to originate a provisional with U.S. PTO. This anchor design is little to nothing like any anchor item previously discussed on TF.
Be pleased to reveal it's properties once patent protections are in place.
I can say before filing a provisional with PTO - My design always sets, will not pull out until you want it to and how many times while anchored the current or wind alters a boat's direction is of no concern.

Interesting hey!!

Art, we can hardly wait..! This we have to see, eh guys..? A new and nigh-on infallible next-gen anchor...wow...just wow, Art.

During spring season, I plan to have my lead engineer drew up anchor plans with me for provisional application to U.S. PTO; while we initiate more provisionals for my Solar Air Tech LLC business / https://solarairpower.com/

I can pretty much guarantee this anchor will not be inexpensive. However, its several improved features should be well worth the capital. We'll see what comes of my new-age anchor concept and design!

Once prototype is built... many tests will be performed in different sea beds to really see if what I "see" can actually fit the bill for 21st Century safe and hassle free anchoring!

 

[SteveK]

My design always sets, will not pull out until you want it to and how many times while anchored the current or wind alters a boat's direction is of no concern.

..................................

Once prototype is built... many tests will be performed in different sea beds to really see if what I "see" can actually fit the bill for 21st Century safe and hassle free anchoring!

Art, I have seen enough of your posts to know you are serious.


But come on, really, you are getting a patent for a boat running aground secure anchor