Shackle to anchor connection video

[mvweebles]

SV Panope's Steve Goodwin put out this video showing various anchor eyes and how they are sized to fit a shackle. Never occurred to me there was something to look at at this end of the anchor but there is.

Fair warning - this is a bit nerdy.

https://youtu.be/WxvlsL7en40

 

[Shrew]

His anchor holding tests have significant flaws and lack real-world behavior.

He sets the anchor, then motors 180 degrees directly over the anchor which then forces a hard jerk on the anchor at 180 degrees from set.

In the real world wind and tide changes don't exert that type of behavior on a boat at anchor. A boat clocks around the circumference of it's anchor swing, not directly across its radius.

Even if it did, it would do so as a result of the change in tide, not wind, which would be a very slow motion event. Wind rarely shifts at high speed 180 degrees.

 

[mvweebles]

His anchor holding tests have significant flaws and lack real-world behavior.

He sets the anchor, then motors 180 degrees directly over the anchor which then forces a hard jerk on the anchor at 180 degrees from set.

In the real world wind and tide changes don't exert that type of behavior on a boat at anchor. A boat clocks around the circumference of it's anchor swing, not directly across its radius.

Even if it did, it would do so as a result of the change in tide, not wind, which would be a very slow motion event. Wind rarely shifts at high speed 180 degrees.

I disagree. He is the first to admit that his tests are somewhat artificial, but in more extreme way than would typically be encountered. For example, he usually uses 1:3.5 scope whereas most folks anchor with at least 1:5 scope, and usually more. When he reverses direction at 2-kts, he'd be the first to admit this is not normal behavior, but if the anchor resets quickly in this perverse example, reasonable to surmise it would reset in a lazy tide change over a couple hours.

I've been keen on anchor tests for 25+ years - there is just so much anecdotal cheerleading and so little testing. Every reasonably large anchor manufacturer has their own tests that show theirs is the best. West Marine used to sponsor an objective test (I think with Sail Magazine), but they were a straight line pull of anchors on a beach so very limited use-case. Practical Sailor has done some as well. Both are instructive and there are nuggets of wisdom, but to my eyes, Panope is the only one who goes a few steps further. What is really missing are some different sea bottoms such as soft mud and grass. But for what he does, I find the information useful.

And I especially liked the video I posted on shackle attachment. Never occurred to me to look at this end of the anchor. Very instructive for me at least.

Peter

 

[MurrayM]

It might not be 'real world' for most boaters but could be considered worst case, yes? He was testing anchors after all, and had to come up with a quick way to test so many of them...with a manual windlass!

Lots of places here in BC, with its narrow/deep waterways, where the tidal currents do a back & forth pattern.

Our sea kayaking days, where you can actually feel things through the seat of your pants or extra effort in your arms, taught us to read the waters surface.

The tidal flow actually changes in the shallow water along the edges of channels before the middle. Makes sense, as all that volume of water mid channel has so much momentum.

You can see it happening on the surface...there will be about a 6" wide foam line that forms along shore, which then slowly moves in towards the centre of a channel from both sides at the same time.

If you paddle across it you can feel the difference, you can see sticks doing circles, and we've even felt it in our trawler. On windy days there will be a distinct difference in wave shape/height.

No way for that to happen unless it's a 180 degree turn in tidal flow.

 

[rslifkin]

I generally consider Steve's tests to be worst case. So however an anchor performs in his tests, in 99% of real world situations, it'll perform better. He's not testing for which anchor can hold slightly more under perfect conditions, he's testing for which one will be the least likely to fail you when conditions are totally unfavorable.

 

[MurrayM]

More on kayaking...

We could often keep pace with trawlers in mid channel who were fighting the current by milking the flow going our way closer to shore...until the current changed for them and then they would outpace us.

If the current was strong against us as well, we sometimes could keep pace by milking back eddies if the shore was steep enough...comes a point though when it gets too strong, you can't sprint-paddle around the next point, and then it's time for a break ashore until the current slowed down.

 

[O C Diver]

His anchor holding tests have significant flaws and lack real-world behavior.

He sets the anchor, then motors 180 degrees directly over the anchor which then forces a hard jerk on the anchor at 180 degrees from set.

In the real world wind and tide changes don't exert that type of behavior on a boat at anchor. A boat clocks around the circumference of it's anchor swing, not directly across its radius.

Even if it did, it would do so as a result of the change in tide, not wind, which would be a very slow motion event. Wind rarely shifts at high speed 180 degrees.

Any anchor will fail to hold or reset if you make the artificial conditions severe enough.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

SV Panope's Steve Goodwin put out this video showing various anchor eyes and how they are sized to fit a shackle. Never occurred to me there was something to look at at this end of the anchor but there is.

Fair warning - this is a bit nerdy.

https://youtu.be/WxvlsL7en40

While I appreciate his OCD in this video, the obvious part that's missing is that the slot is likely not the same through the range of sizes for a manufacturer's specific model. Seems misleading to criticize (which may be too strong a word) a manufacturer's model based on one size out of maybe 5 to 10 or more, based on the one he has in his shop.

Ted

 

[MurrayM]

While I appreciate his OCD in this video, the obvious part that's missing is that the slot is likely not the same through the range of sizes for a manufacturer's specific model. Seems misleading to criticize (which may be too strong a word) a manufacturer's model based on one size out of maybe 5 to 10 or more, based on the one he has in his shop.

Ted

Kinda nit-picky?

He's giving his opinion with what anchors he has on hand. Takes some balls to put one's opinion out there...me-thinks he's onto the next thing and not fussing over comments to his videos.

The floor is open for better videos.

 

[psneeld]

Has anyone here really had a question of what shackle to use with what anchor?


Would one really select an anchor based on the attachment point?



I can understand reviewing swivels...but anchor slots?


So I get people comparing this video to his others.



I love his videos for what they are but I kept waiting for the punchline in this one ....beyond...be careful of the shackle binding which may escape boaters without a lot of rigging experience. That was a good tip.

 

[O C Diver]

Kinda nit-picky?

He's giving his opinion with what anchors he has on hand. Takes some balls to put one's opinion out there...me-thinks he's onto the next thing and not fussing over comments to his videos.

The floor is open for better videos.

No, just an observation. I don't think it's any different than categorizing a manufacturer's model of boats and implying they're all this way because the model size evaluated is this way. Frankly, I think his evaluation of the slots is done well, it just may be very different on the next size up or down.

The other thing I find amusing is his dedication to holding strength in adverse conditions, while considering whether a no name Chinese junk shackle will work. It seems that if I'm going to this much trouble to have superior ground tackle, I would use a name brand shackle with load rating. A 7/16" pin Crosby shackle with a working load limit over 5,000 pounds is <$19.

Ted

 

[Simi 60]

His anchor holding tests have significant flaws and lack real-world behavior.

He sets the anchor, then motors 180 degrees directly over the anchor which then forces a hard jerk on the anchor at 180 degrees from set.

In the real world wind and tide changes don't exert that type of behavior on a boat at anchor. A boat clocks around the circumference of it's anchor swing, not directly across its radius.

Even if it did, it would do so as a result of the change in tide, not wind, which would be a very slow motion event. Wind rarely shifts at high speed 180 degrees.

While this is true, at this time of year here we do have storms come through that give 180 degree wind shifts.
Usually only 40 to 50 knots but we were in a 80+ knot event that had enough initial shock loading (pre nylon snubber) to deform/stretch 13mm chain.
We did not drag, or if we did, not enough to notice.

For us, in the area we cruise, his videos do demonstrate somewhat, real world behaviour.

 

[rslifkin]

The other thing I find amusing is his dedication to holding strength in adverse conditions, while considering whether a no name Chinese junk shackle will work. It seems that if I'm going to this much trouble to have superior ground tackle, I would use a name brand shackle with load rating. A 7/16" pin Crosby shackle with a working load limit over 5,000 pounds is <$19.

In my mind, it's still useful to know which of the off brand or cheap parts are decent and which ones aren't. Not necessarily because you intend to use those parts, but there may come a day when you need something on short notice for whatever reason and the desired "known good" part isn't available. At that point I'd want to know which of the iffy parts are at least "known adequate" so I can pick one of those and not one that's a total piece of garbage.

 

[mvweebles]

Has anyone here really had a question of what shackle to use with what anchor?

I love his videos for what they are but I kept waiting for the punchline in this one ....beyond...be careful of the shackle binding which may escape boaters without a lot of rigging experience. That was a good tip.

Well, I never really had a question on what shackle to use because I never even thought to ask the question. But I think it a fair question to ask, especially if distance between your roller and winch is short - addition of an extra bow-shackle might make it too long.

I wouldn't select an anchor based on it's shackle connection, but I would definitely de-select one if all else was roughly equal. For example, I'm not a swivel guy. I used to run them but think they create more trouble than they potentially solve (not looking for a retort). Now, I wouldn't spend the money on a SS anchor so an Ultra is out for me on that basis alone, but even if it wasn't knowing that I had to run a swivel on it would rule it out. I didn't know that until this video.

But bottom line, it definitely got me thinking about the entire ground tackle system as a whole. Not just an anchor, and not just bigger-is-better thinking. But the entire system of anchor, shackle, chain, gypsy. I know, should be second nature, and perhaps it's because I'm thinking of headed south out of Ensenada vs shipping my boat (thus remote anchoring), but it was a good video for me to think through the various components of an anchor rode.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

We had connection issues with ours
The bow shackle that fitted anchor was to big for chain so two had to be used.
Can't get Crosby in Australia, but can get a multitude of yellow paint "Rated" shackles cheap and I am sure 99.9% are fine. But, I still feel mildly uneasy about them seeing as we are at anchor every night.

We chose to go with Van Beest made in the Netherlands
More expensive for sure but good enough for North Sea oilrigs, good enough for me.
https://www.nobles.com.au/en-au/product-catalogue/green-pin-grade-s-safety-pin-bow-shackles

 

[O C Diver]

In my mind, it's still useful to know which of the off brand or cheap parts are decent and which ones aren't. Not necessarily because you intend to use those parts, but there may come a day when you need something on short notice for whatever reason and the desired "known good" part isn't available. At that point I'd want to know which of the iffy parts are at least "known adequate" so I can pick one of those and not one that's a total piece of garbage.

Considering the immense size for storage, and cost of my anchor shackle, I chose to have a spare plus the one on the second anchor setup.

Now all I have to do is remember where it's stored.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

Now all I have to do is remember where it's stored.

When you find it, see if my 5/8" socket is there too. Haven't seen it in a while. Come to think of it, my scratch-awl is missing too.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

When you find it, see if my 5/8" socket is there too. Haven't seen it in a while. Come to think of it, my scratch-awl is missing too.

Peter

I believe I have 4. Two with 3/8" drive, two with 1/2" drive, and both drive sizes shallow and deep. How will I know which one is yours? Is your scratch awl straight or 90 degree?

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

I believe I have 4. Two with 3/8" drive, two with 1/2" drive, and both drive sizes shallow and deep. How will I know which one is yours? Is your scratch awl straight or 90 degree?

Ted

Scratch awl started straight. More like a 45 now. Sort of like my wire cutters that now make a dandy wire stripper every since I snipped a live 120vac wire.

If the sockets are SnapOn or MAC, must be mine. Otherwise, don't bother. I just use them as plumb-bob weights anyway. Come to think of it, just the other day, Comodave showed a socket being used as a spacer in a jury-rigged puller to yank a the coupling off a shaft......must be mine too!

Happy holidays Ted -

Peter

 

[Nomad Willy]

I got out my old Chapman books and found that many or even most anchors came w a ring of round steel or bronze and apparently intended for line attach. Rope in those days was readily subject to chaffing. The ring was usually attached at the end of an anchor shank or directly to a rope rode end. The attach method was to give the rode every chance to hold a heavy and wilely load w/o chafing. Some of this gear goes back to hemp line before the wonderful nylon line came to be.
Some new anchors are equipped w ideal shackles. And some are holed at the shank end for specific sizes ... inches, mm or even British Whitworth ???? But like Steve G many will try to jamb whatever is on hand into the slot.

This business of putting one of the bolt hole ends of the shackle though the shank hole started at some time in the past. Don’t know why but some manufacturer did as it was not part of older anchor configurations that go back to kedge style/type of anchors.

But the slot happened. Perhaps it was decided the slot permitted a lower shank height material to be used and that may have let to a higher strength shank to be made w/o going to higher grade steel. ???
In Steve’s post the first anchor he talked about was the old CQR w the really fat shank end. Massive indeed. I would like to call it a bearing. A bearing to include the shackle hole in the shank and the bolt. Steve goes on and on and on about sharp edges chaffing and wear. But it never appears to occur to him to put the shackle bolt through the slot ... or even when it’s a hole. Much chaffing will occur if the shackle is not inserted in the hole or slot.

But any fool can see if one puts the shackle bolt through the anchor hole/slot fitted as to the biggest size and comfortable fit w/o a trace of binding very very little binging will result.

Many older anchors come w their own shackle attached and ready to go. And many old anchor shackles had a fairly large dia. shackle-end like a very small basketball hoop. Seemingly for smooth sliding as the boat swings at anchor.

The manufacturers that provide a hole only will never or almost never bind in the way that upsets Steve G. But you’d think Steve (w all his concern about binding) would try fitting the anchor shackle to it’s bolt size.
And if one does it via shackle ends there will be chaffing on the the anchor shank, the shackle where it contacts, all around the shackle and on the chain link.

I ‘ve always put the shackle bolt through the anchor slot or hole. I have a whole box full of shackles and choose the biggest bolt that will fit the anchor with the most ideal shape on the outside of the shackle.

We had an argument/thread on TF as to what was preferable. The bolt through the hole didn’t win the argument but there were many on both sides. But there’s clearly a way to avoid jamming and chaffing .. bolt first.

Please post a link if found.

 

[O C Diver]

Scratch awl started straight. More like a 45 now. Sort of like my wire cutters that now make a dandy wire stripper every since I snipped a live 120vac wire.

If the sockets are SnapOn or MAC, must be mine. Otherwise, don't bother. I just use them as plumb-bob weights anyway. Come to think of it, just the other day, Comodave showed a socket being used as a spacer in a jury-rigged puller to yank a the coupling off a shaft......must be mine too!

Happy holidays Ted -

Peter

Sorry, with a few exceptions, Craftsman is my brand of choice. Appreciate the quality of Mac and SnapOn, not willing to pay the price or have to fight to get tools exchanged. Never an argument at the Craftsman register.

Happy Holidays Peter

Ted

 

[trawlercap]

Hammerlocks are 3 times the strength of shackles, and fit inside chain links where shackles can't go, they don't require stupid wire safety ties.. they never come loose. You need a punch and hammer to break it open, and it always breaks free. As a commercial trawler, we NEVER used shackles, too weak for their size and wear out fast. You can even get them in stainless I see. They are 3 times better than a shackle, or more. They are in another league. Try your local commercial fishing place, don't buy China crap.

 

[psneeld]

If every piece of my ground tackle is WAY stronger than the expected breakout pull of my anchor...and that is only in situations I will probably never be in.....


Why would I see the need to keep using stronger and stronger line, chain, shackles, swivels, etc...etc....?


The real holy grail in my experience is to know exactly where and what kind of bottom my anchor is in and for it to be able to hold in the conditions that may hit.


The tackle is the easy part.

 

[O C Diver]

Hammerlocks are 3 times the strength of shackles, and fit inside chain links where shackles can't go, they don't require stupid wire safety ties.. they never come loose. You need a punch and hammer to break it open, and it always breaks free. As a commercial trawler, we NEVER used shackles, too weak for their size and wear out fast. You can even get them in stainless I see. They are 3 times better than a shackle, or more. They are in another league.

While these look interesting, I'm not finding them at 3 times the working load compared to a Crosby load rated shackle. How do you determine deterioration on the locking pin without disassembling it? How do you determine when to replace them?

Ted

 

[trawlercap]

The shackle and hammerlock can't be compared by size. The shackle has to be downsized to fit the pin into a chain link. Easy to show, hard to post. (maybe I'll make video someday) A hammerlock that fits through the same link is many times stronger than the shackle that fits. In our service, shackle pins bent, and were next to impossible to back the pin out. I've see a hammerlock pin break, it's rare, but never fail. Multiple connection points.

 

[rslifkin]

For anchoring, at least with G43 or weaker chain, a 1 size up high test shackle will have a rated working load higher than the chain. In my case, I'm using 5/16" G43 chain (3900 lbs WLL / 11700 lbs UTS). The shackle at the anchor end is a 3/8" Crosby G209A. The pin of the 3/8" shackle fits through the chain just fine. Shackle is rated for 4400 lbs WLL / 22000 lbs UTS, so significantly stronger than the chain.



It's only once you get into G70 chain that shackle strength can become an issue unless you use oversized end links to allow a bigger shackle.

 

[trawlercap]

OK, I'll bow out, it likely to never be an issue for this fleet. As I switch over from work to pleasure boats, I fall back on what kept us alive and productive in another sorta world. I'm learning it doesn't always transfer directly.
Merry Christmas to all, here's to great coming new year.

 

[rslifkin]

OK, I'll bow out, it likely to never be an issue for this fleet. As I switch over from work to pleasure boats, I fall back on what kept us alive and productive in another sorta world. I'm learning it doesn't always transfer directly.
Merry Christmas to all, here's to great coming new year.

A lot of the concepts transfer, but sometimes the functional requirements or the practicalities of handling a given type of equipment are different. Such as anchoring with a windlass and chain locker vs a big drum winch. Either one can work, but depending on the boat design, you may be pushed to one or the other (and for recreational stuff, it's usually not the drum winch). And each design requires or allows significantly different equipment selection for ground tackle.

 

[trawlercap]

Great point Rslifkin. When I first saw my boat, I was so attracted to the workboat soul. Made my transition much more familiar.

 

[Nomad Willy]

TCap,
Beautiful pice of hardware .. your shackle.

When I bought my 2nd XYZ anchor they asked me if I wanted an extra shackle. I said give me three. The man there said they were much stronger than hardware store items. Still have at least two.

Does the red paint mean a certain size bolt or a certian strength of the bolt and perhaps (but not likely) the shackle.