Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-13-2023, 04:47 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Rocna Vulcan problems

I'm having a specific problem, hoping for some guidance here.

My 2001 Mainship 390 came with a Rocna Vulcan 44lb. anchor when I bought it 3 years ago. I was excited, after reading here for a number of years how it was a good anchor.

I boat in Lake Superior, specifically the Apostle Islands. I'd say 100% of my anchoring is in sand, I generally am 20 feet deep or less when I anchor, in mostly calm conditions.

My rode is all chain, well almost....the last 30 feet or so are line. I've never deployed it past the chain.

My problem is, I can't get this anchor to easily set, ever. It is to the point that I am ready to buy a different anchor. My dock walk last weekend and talking with friends, 90% of what people use around me are Danforth/Fortress types split equally with a plow type anchor.

Last time we anchored, it took me 5 times to get it to set, in completely calm conditions, good deep sand bottom. I tried every combination. Backing while dropping. Drop, then back. Less scope. Tons of scope. Again and again. My swivel swivels, there is nothing bent or bound.

Once it is set, I have no problems, and Bob (former owner) left me a nice bridle that is slick as snot.

Is this anchor more difficult to use? I've got no other explanation than either I really suck at it....or it sucks! Ha!

I do notice there is a heck of a keel on the bottom of it. Does this make it harder to set?

Looking for ideas. I'm inclined to go for a plow type as my primary roller, I have a backup smaller Danforth anchor I may upgrade as well for a backup.

Or could it be me? I am suspicious, I have seen very few of my anchor around me. But I know a bunch of you whom I respect a lot have this exact anchor....so I'm pausing.

Here is a pic of the miserable thing ;-) Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4396.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	130.3 KB
ID:	139700

Any ideas?

Thanks
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 04:53 PM   #2
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,473
There's a guy on Cruisersforum who had similar setting issues with a Vulcan. I've got the same size (73lb) Vulcan he did and the only time mine hasn't set well was when I dropped it in a pile of cobblestone.

Generally I set it by deploying the desired amount of rode while slowly moving backwards (to avoid a pile) then gently backing down to stretch the rode tight. Don't get the boat moving too fast. Once it goes tight, I drop both engines into idle reverse until it stretches good and tight and the boat stays stopped, then throttle up slightly for 30 seconds or so. No swivel in my setup, but that shouldn't matter. I'm not sure I've ever dropped mine in sand, but definitely in sandy mud and many types of regular mud.

Out of curiosity, what size chain are you using with that anchor?
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 05:01 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
There's a guy on Cruisersforum who had similar setting issues with a Vulcan. I've got the same size (73lb) Vulcan he did and the only time mine hasn't set well was when I dropped it in a pile of cobblestone.

Out of curiosity, what size chain are you using with that anchor?
I will have to measure it later this week when I get back up there. I want to say it's on the larger size, but I could be wrong. It's the stock Lewmar windlass that came on the Mainship, I don't know if they have a single chain size they support or not.
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 05:07 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mncruiser View Post
I will have to measure it later this week when I get back up there. I want to say it's on the larger size, but I could be wrong. It's the stock Lewmar windlass that came on the Mainship, I don't know if they have a single chain size they support or not.

Does this look bigger than normal? Apologies, all Iíve got until I get back there. Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4404.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	64.9 KB
ID:	139701
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 05:22 PM   #5
Moderator Emeritus
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,061
The chain size probably wonít make much difference in getting it to set. Heavier chain may help some but it doesnít sound like that is your problem. I might try a fairly large Fortress anchor. I had an FX37 as a backup anchor for one of our boats. But I sold it to someone here on TF. In sand it would probably be a good anchor. You can also change the fluke angle for mud.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 05:34 PM   #6
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,111
Let's rule-out technique first.

What scope are you using? Is your chain well marked? In 20-feet of water, plus 5-feet to the bow roller, you should be dropping 120-feet of chain as you back-down. Do you back-down slowly before power-setting? Can you describe your deployment process?

Fortress/Danforth style are excellent in sand as long as there the pull-direction remains relatively consistent.

Interesting.....

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 07:07 PM   #7
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,737
Peter wrote,
ď Fortress/Danforth style are excellent in sand as long as there the pull-direction remains relatively consistent. Ē

Yes and Iíve always had good performance w the original anchor. A Danforth w a forged shank and formed steel plate flukes. It was only 13lbs but held my 30í 8 ton Willard boat in up to 40knot winds. I used it fairly often mostly because it was so easy to pull. No winch or capstan for several years.

I have a 22lb Dan w both forged shank and flukes. Very long sharp flukes. In sand Iíd expect it to have very high holding power.

But now-days there are many good anchors. One thatís exceptional in many types of sea floor. Or as the Australians say ďSuper SARCAĒ. Itís what I look for in an anchor .. flexibility while setting.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 07:18 PM   #8
Guru
 
diver dave's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,570
Rocna Vulcan problems

Please take a go- pro down and show us what exactly what is happening. Thanks. Lots of vulcan users here.
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 07:37 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
heysteve's Avatar
 
Vessel Model: 1984 Sunnfjord 42
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 149
I've had a Rocna Vulcan for years in both the PNW and Mexico. For me, it performed extremely well. On sand it sets very quickly so I too think it might be related to technique.

I typically lower the anchor slowly while paying out chain. If the wind is blowing, I just let it push the boat back. If not then bumping the boat in reverse works nicely. What you want is to match the chain going out with the boat speed so you have a nice stretched out rode between the boat and the anchor.

When the appropriate scope is reached, I stop letting out chain and - 90% of the time - the anchor sets quickly. I then power up a bit in reverse to set it. For me, 5:1 scope worked well in all but extreme conditions.

You have a good anchor... I'm sure you can make it work!
heysteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 08:19 PM   #10
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by mncruiser View Post
I'm having a specific problem, hoping for some guidance here.

My 2001 Mainship 390 came with a Rocna Vulcan 44lb. anchor when I bought it 3 years ago. I was excited, after reading here for a number of years how it was a good anchor.

I boat in Lake Superior, specifically the Apostle Islands. I'd say 100% of my anchoring is in sand, I generally am 20 feet deep or less when I anchor, in mostly calm conditions.

My rode is all chain, well almost....the last 30 feet or so are line. I've never deployed it past the chain.

My problem is, I can't get this anchor to easily set, ever. It is to the point that I am ready to buy a different anchor. My dock walk last weekend and talking with friends, 90% of what people use around me are Danforth/Fortress types split equally with a plow type anchor.

Last time we anchored, it took me 5 times to get it to set, in completely calm conditions, good deep sand bottom. I tried every combination. Backing while dropping. Drop, then back. Less scope. Tons of scope. Again and again. My swivel swivels, there is nothing bent or bound.

Once it is set, I have no problems, and Bob (former owner) left me a nice bridle that is slick as snot.

Is this anchor more difficult to use? I've got no other explanation than either I really suck at it....or it sucks! Ha!

I do notice there is a heck of a keel on the bottom of it. Does this make it harder to set?

Looking for ideas. I'm inclined to go for a plow type as my primary roller, I have a backup smaller Danforth anchor I may upgrade as well for a backup.

Or could it be me? I am suspicious, I have seen very few of my anchor around me. But I know a bunch of you whom I respect a lot have this exact anchor....so I'm pausing.

Here is a pic of the miserable thing ;-) Attachment 139700

Any ideas?

Thanks
Diving anchors like the Vulcan, Ultra, Excel, etc. seem to set best when you lay them on the sea floor, backing up only to prevent a chain lump, then letting them settle in. Once they start digging, tension only makes them dig deeper, which you want. Too much backing before they start nosing in keeps them from ever starting to penetrate the sea bed, and if you want to back down to know it's set, wait a couple of hours and then do it.



Just one man's opinion....
__________________
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 08:50 PM   #11
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,927
Agree with above. I don’t allow the chain to come taught until 5:1 scope is paid out. The only time it has failed to set is when I let it come taught early or on a down slope bottom like the edge of the Hudson River. So that’s bottom depth plus the height of the pulpit roller above the surface of the water times 5 then let stop the windlass payout. Do not back down until you let it settle naturally for a while. For us that’s about 30 minutes. We also started out with a 44# but upgraded to a 55# after dragging a few times through Carolina mud in high winds.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Stuart, FL
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 09:21 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Let's rule-out technique first.

What scope are you using? Is your chain well marked? In 20-feet of water, plus 5-feet to the bow roller, you should be dropping 120-feet of chain as you back-down. Do you back-down slowly before power-setting? Can you describe your deployment process?

Fortress/Danforth style are excellent in sand as long as there the pull-direction remains relatively consistent.

Interesting.....

Peter


My chain is marked, but faded and I think Iíve been guessing after awhile.

I think itís likely Iím not letting enough rode out. I think Iím so concerned about it not setting and drifting into nothing, Iím not letting enough out, and not paying attention to how much Iím actually letting out.

I think thatís it. I did notice I had a lot of chain left last time, I think I have 180í of chain.

I think it might be me!!!
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 09:28 PM   #13
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,473
I've never needed to let mine settle like some mention here. As long as tension is brought up somewhat gently it's always dug in just fine and continued to dig in with a harder pull.
rslifkin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 09:41 PM   #14
Guru
 
SteveK's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,928
I have always wondered where the holding is in anchors like post 1 Rocna. The shank of an anchor is IMO expected to lay on the bottom along with the chain. The Danforth was brought up. The flutes rotate down about 30* so they dig in. The pictured Rocna appears to be parallels with the seabed, where is the holding ability.
Either anchor when pulled by reversing may lift the shank. The Danforth and plow types still have the ability to dig deeper. If the shank on the Rocna is lifted and pulled it will come point skyward and unset, and that is what appears to be happening here.

I have a Bruce now and it has held in all but a sand or gravel bottom. my previous was Delta. both of them show a design that digs down imo.
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
SteveK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 10:03 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
I have always wondered where the holding is in anchors like post 1 Rocna. The shank of an anchor is IMO expected to lay on the bottom along with the chain. The Danforth was brought up. The flutes rotate down about 30* so they dig in. The pictured Rocna appears to be parallels with the seabed, where is the holding ability.
Either anchor when pulled by reversing may lift the shank. The Danforth and plow types still have the ability to dig deeper. If the shank on the Rocna is lifted and pulled it will come point skyward and unset, and that is what appears to be happening here.

I have a Bruce now and it has held in all but a sand or gravel bottom. my previous was Delta. both of them show a design that digs down imo.


My problem is not holding, itís setting. I think it may all be technique.
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 10:12 PM   #16
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
I've never needed to let mine settle like some mention here. As long as tension is brought up somewhat gently it's always dug in just fine and continued to dig in with a harder pull.
If you anchor in mud or rock, knock yourself out pulling on the hook as soon as it hits bottom. If you're anchoring in hard sand, or sand and shell, or a kelp bottom, backing down just means plowing up the bottom if you do it before it has a chance to settle. I watched a guy in Friday Harbor in a Nordhavn 70+ try to set a perfectly good anchor 5 times before he gave up. His technique was start backing down as soon as he had scope out. Doesn't work in some bottoms.
__________________
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handey
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 11:44 PM   #17
TF Site Team
 
City: Ex-Brisbane, (Australia), now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,095
Absolutely right. Like Delfin and several others have said. Too much backing down and doing it too soon will be the issue for sure. That sort of approach was mostly needed with the older generation anchors like the CQR/plough and Danforth types. That keel-like thing under it is to tip it over so one or other edge gets a chance to bite in with more gentle movement, then turn her over so the point then can dig in. If you power back too early, it can just keep tobogganing along on that keel.

Let it sit for a bit with adequate scope, gently laid out, then a gentle back down after about a half hour - or however long it takes to relax with a coffee or similar - then, a mild back down under idle power should just set your mind at rest. Then have the same faith that we have that the light goes out in the fridge when we shut the door. ��
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 11:55 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
If you anchor in mud or rock, knock yourself out pulling on the hook as soon as it hits bottom. If you're anchoring in hard sand, or sand and shell, or a kelp bottom, backing down just means plowing up the bottom if you do it before it has a chance to settle. I watched a guy in Friday Harbor in a Nordhavn 70+ try to set a perfectly good anchor 5 times before he gave up. His technique was start backing down as soon as he had scope out. Doesn't work in some bottoms.


Yep. My last boat was on the Mississippi. I could literally drive to where I wanted to anchor, barely come off plane, drop the anchor, drift over it, be pushed back over it by the current, it would set in mud every time the first time.

Itís probably all me. Sounds like I need to tweak a few things.

Thank you!
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2023, 11:57 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
mncruiser's Avatar
 
City: Bayfield
Vessel Name: Phoenix
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Absolutely right. Like Delfin and several others have said. Too much backing down and doing it too soon will be the issue for sure. That sort of approach was mostly needed with the older generation anchors like the CQR/plough and Danforth types. That keel-like thing under it is to tip it over so one or other edge gets a chance to bite in with more gentle movement, then turn her over so the point then can dig in. If you power back too early, it can just keep tobogganing along on that keel.

Let it sit for a bit with adequate scope, gently laid out, then a gentle back down after about a half hour - or however long it takes to relax with a coffee or similar - then, a mild back down under idle power should just set your mind at rest. Then have the same faith that we have that the light goes out in the fridge when we shut the door. ��


I love it!!
mncruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2023, 12:14 AM   #20
Guru
 
SteveK's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by mncruiser View Post
My problem is not holding, itís setting. I think it may all be technique.
holding/setting same thing to me. when it does not happen you are plowing the seabed.
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
SteveK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012