Anchor Swivel options for 5/16 Chain

[rslifkin]

There are some risks with galvanized swivels, but they're also cheap enough that preventative replacement isn't a big deal. And oversizing increases the amount of degradation that can occur before it's no longer strong enough.

 

[psneeld]

Here is a moorings article by BoatIS...they don't seem overly concerned with swivels being a grossly obvious weak link.

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2014/january/everyday-moorings.asp

 

[izikalvo]

Try to avoid using aswivel, make sure you have the right size groove on your bow roller.

 

[psneeld]

Try to avoid using aswivel, make sure you have the right size groove on your bow roller.

But does the groove really matter if your chain veers to one side and another and comes out of the groove? Mine was machined by a machine shop for my chain.

 

[izikalvo]

But does the groove really matter if your chain veers to one side and another and comes out of the groove? Mine was machined by a machine shop for my chain.

Your V shape roller must have the groove to fit the chain links, the chain links can stand few turns accumulate near the anchor when pulled in case of light wind that makes the boat to wander all over. the chain links will be untwisted from the time the anchor breaks out until it gets to the bow roller. You need to check that your chain is not tangled in your chain locker, to begin with, and that the bitter end of the chain is connected to a firm spot in the anchor locker with a rope and not directly with the chain, it should be a rope for main two reasons: one is that you can drop your chain in case of emergency by cutting it and the second is that the rope can absorb the twists accrued on the chain if any.

 

[psneeld]

Your V shape roller must have the groove to fit the chain links, the chain links can stand few turns accumulate near the anchor when pulled in case of light wind that makes the boat to wander all over. the chain links will be untwisted from the time the anchor breaks out until it gets to the bow roller. You need to check that your chain is not tangled in your chain locker, to begin with, and that the bitter end of the chain is connected to a firm spot in the anchor locker with a rope and not directly with the chain, it should be a rope for main two reasons: one is that you can drop your chain in case of emergency by cutting it and the second is that the rope can absorb the twists accrued on the chain if any.

My roller was MACHINED to fit the chain, the chain will only untwist on retrieval if it stays in the groove which isn't always possible due to the boat heading off from current or wind, the chain doesn't tangle in the locker, the bitter end is connected to 50 feet of line in the locker.....


I am far from a newbie and posted all of this above as studied and corrected as discussed for years ....plus tinkered with all the corrections to no avail....


Unless I figure out how to keep the chain in the groove 100% of the time on return...I am not sure much else matter.And that from experience doesn't seem practical....at least on my boat.

 

[izikalvo]

My roller was MACHINED to fit the chain, the chain will only untwist on retrieval if it stays in the groove which isn't always possible due to the boat heading off from current or wind, the chain doesn't tangle in the locker, the bitter end is connected to 50 feet of line in the locker.....


I am far from a newbie and posted all of this above as studied and corrected as discussed for years ....plus tinkered with all the corrections to no avail....


Unless I figure out how to keep the chain in the groove 100% of the time on return...I am not sure much else matter.And that from experience doesn't seem practical....at least on my boat.

Since you are not a newbie you obvuesly know how to approach you anchor when retrieving it.

What anchor are you using?

 

[psneeld]

The best.. .....as I posted earlier...a Manson Supreme 60lb.

 

[Nomad Willy]

It’s all about the groove.

How well defined and how wide and how deep.
Those that have trouble w their anchor orientation have a chain to groove fit problem.
If the groove fits the chain how could the chain (and hence anchor) come up any way other than how it went down. It’s that simple.
And if you have a poor fitting bow roller get the “flip Link” from ARA .. groundtackle.com.

 

[izikalvo]

Aha, your choice, good anchor, personaly i would try to avoid using a swivel and if no other choice I would use a boomerang instead.

 

[psneeld]

It’s all about the groove.

How well defined and how wide and how deep.
Those that have trouble w their anchor orientation have a chain to groove fit problem.
If the groove fits the chain how could the chain (and hence anchor) come up any way other than how it went down. It’s that simple.
And if you have a poor fitting bow roller get the “flip Link” from ARA .. groundtackle.com.

Lots more experience will explain that.


I guess a machined roller by a highly experienced machine shop is just too sloppy for some.


I still stand by my geometry theory that no matter the grove, other things conspire to pop the chain out on retrieval.... with all the heavy machinery experience I have with salvage work and understanding line retirval...i don't think I am missing something simple.

 

[psneeld]

Aha, your choice, good anchor, personaly i would try to avoid using a swivel and if no other choice I would use a boomerang instead.

I understand...do you have any amplifying data, documentation that swivels are a disproportional weak link? especially if maintained and oversized to begin with?

 

[izikalvo]

I understand...do you have any amplifying data, documentation that swivels are a disproportional weak link? especially if maintained and oversized to begin with?

"maintained and oversized" are the two major issues why not using them, most of the swivels in the market today are suffisticated swivels that cannot be maintained because you cannot easily see the inside of them and oversizing swivels disturbs the deep setting of the anchor especially the new designs.

Use boomerang, if you have to.

 

[psneeld]

"maintained and oversized" are the two major issues why not using them, most of the swivels in the market today are suffisticated swivels that cannot be maintained because you cannot easily see the inside of them and oversizing swivels disturbs the deep setting of the anchor especially the new designs.

Use boomerang, if you have to.

That's really not an answer to my question.


While I agree overengineered swivels may be difficult to inspect, but not simple galvanized and oversized...the kind I use...what would that be a negative unless you are compensate for iffy engineering?


Not sure what a boomerrang is.


So again I ask....any real data on swivel failures or just more boating myth? Not that they don't fail...but they are all automatically weak links....


I would love to see data on swivels preventing deep setting of anchors any more than roll bars or some designs in general.

 

[izikalvo]

That's really not an answer to my question.


While I agree overengineered swivels may be difficult to inspect, but not simple galvanized and oversized...the kind I use...what would that be a negative unless you are compensate for iffy engineering?


Not sure what a boomerrang is.


So again I ask....any real data on swivel failures or just more boating myth? Not that they don't fail...but they are all automatically weak links....


I would love to see data on swivels preventing deep setting of anchors any more than roll bars or some designs in general.

Boomerang or “Flip Links” as groundtackle call them, are a banana-shaped link that takes care of the problem you are facing, only with boomerang you see all the shackles connecting it. maybe some other forum members here can bring the data you need, and yes roll bars are also an obstacle for the anchor to dive deeper but since the large object on the shank meets the ground first it interferes with the angle the anchor suppose to be at when penetrating.

 

[psneeld]

Thanks for clarification on a boomerang.


Compared to the shank of my anchor and its shackle, the oversized swivel is hardly an impediment to burying. In a hard substrate... maybe a tiny amount but if the anchor buries that deep in a hard bottom...I am most likely secure and it will bury further through time like my big feet do standing at the edge of the ocean. If the bottom is soupy and the anchor needs to bury further, the soupy bottom woun't restrict my shackle one bit.

 

[Nomad Willy]

izikalvo wrote;
“and yes roll bars are also an obstacle for the anchor to dive deeper”

I’ve promoted a theory that the roll bar pitches an anchor “up” and therefor is a negative feature of the roll bar anchor. You could say it promotes an anchor to breakout. Just like the high “T” tails of airplanes also tend to pitch up the aircraft. Anchors are much the same however an anchor needs to get buried (including all of the roll bar) before any pitching up forces have any or much effect. Most anchoring videos show a set anchor w a considerable amount of the top of the roll bar exposed whereas it would cause little or no drag .. or pitching up of the whole anchor.
The above promoted me to cut off the roll bar of my Manson Supreme. I still have a setting issue w that anchor and haven’t done all the testing I would like.


Re the flip link as shown in post #105 would the link work just as well eliminating one shackle and w the remaining shackle attach the anchor directly to the anchor .. as in chain link, shackle and then anchor? Many skippers have only a short distance between the bow roller and their gypsy.
I wonder why they didn’t call the Flip Link a Dog Link? They look more like a dog leg than a dog leg.

 

[jefndeb]

Wow, i guess i oped a can of worms here...sorry about that...

 

[Shrew]

Our chain constantly came up twisted and would jam in the windlass. We installed a Mantus swivel and never had an issue again. Any swivel will resolve the issue. The Mantus swivel is the most robust swivel we could find.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Hey Shrew what’s your employee #? HaHa:

 

[Peter B]

....I still stand by my geometry theory that no matter the grove, other things conspire to pop the chain out on retrieval.... with all the heavy machinery experience I have with salvage work and understanding line retirval...i don't think I am missing something simple.

psn, if you re-read my post #80, I think you fall in the last para, where I say, when all else fails, then by all means use a decent swivel, although I must say the ARA flip-link (boomerang) thing does look handy, and is slimmer-lined than a bulky swivel, which then requires more bulky shackles - unless one forks out for the very expensive Ultra-flip swivel, which does look the business, but can one trust those hexagonal headed bolts that you can't seize with wire..? Maybe in your case, machined roller groove and all, that it is the depth and therefore length you need to let out, compared to my average, as to why yours still fails to re-orient properly. Also, my roller was a synthetic, not stainless steel, so maybe a bit more forgiving..? I must admit where I anchored most I seldom had to let out more than about 20-30metres of chain. Perhaps if you usually let out a fair bit more, maybe thats all it takes for our nice groove-linking theory to fail..?

Boomerang or “Flip Links” as groundtackle call them, are a banana-shaped link that takes care of the problem you are facing, only with boomerang you see all the shackles connecting it....and yes roll bars are also an obstacle for the anchor to dive deeper but since the large object on the shank meets the ground first it interferes with the angle the anchor suppose to be at when penetrating.

I don't agree that the roll-bar prevents deep setting. Possibly on the Rocna and Manson, which are quite thick, but I can definitely vouch for the fact the slim one on the S-Sarca does not.

Our chain constantly came up twisted and would jam in the windlass. We installed a Mantus swivel and never had an issue again. Any swivel will resolve the issue. The Mantus swivel is the most robust swivel we could find.

Fair enough Shrew, but I think if coming up the wrong way was a huge issue, having reviewed all this, I'd go for the flip-link solution rather than a swivel. But I know swivels work for many so it's each to his own, I guess. However, I well remember a favourite saying of a past member, Marin, who always used to say, "nothing ever fails - until it does..!"

 

[BruceK]

Boomerang or “Flip Links” as groundtackle call them, are a banana-shaped link that takes care of the problem you are facing,...

Ah yes, the boomerang shape will surely ensure the anchor returns from whence it departed...

 

[izikalvo]

That's really not an answer to my question.


While I agree overengineered swivels may be difficult to inspect, but not simple galvanized and oversized...the kind I use...what would that be a negative unless you are compensate for iffy engineering?


Not sure what a boomerrang is.


So again I ask....any real data on swivel failures or just more boating myth? Not that they don't fail...but they are all automatically weak links....


I would love to see data on swivels preventing deep setting of anchors any more than roll bars or some designs in general.

Found one for you Scott, and there are more but no time https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-swivels-caution-required

 

[psneeld]

Found one for you Scott, and there are more but no time https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-swivels-caution-required

Thank you, but nothing I haven't read or heard before in both that or many other articles that all say about the same....some in more detail.

From that article...... "One of our concerns is material. Stainless steel, in our view, is to be avoided for any load-bearing components in the anchor rode. (For more details regarding our aversion to stainless steel, see our special report, Marine Metal Warning PS February 2007 online).

In the course of researching this topic, we tracked down several examples of broken swivels, both stainless and galvanized. Although we have no data showing how widespread swivel failure is, the bottom line is that adding an anchor swivel adds a potential failure point, something we want to avoid in the anchor rode."

So they have a few examples and no real data on how widespread failure is. They are definitely against stainless swivels....and seem to lean towards bending and side loading as the major problem....which a well installed swivel isnt usually subjected to.

So again I have to say that while not using a swivel is precautionary, using a swivel is hardly a recipe for guaranteed disaster.

If you choose a galvanized, oversized swivel, install it properly, maintain and inspect it and not anchor in very bad conditions....sleeping well shouldn't be a problem as I am more worried about holding than failure.

 

[ranger58sb]

Wow, i guess i oped a can of worms here...sorry about that...

Not to worry.

And why did someone recommend you need a swivel?

-Chris

 

[Cartouche]

Hello,

I upgraded our anchor to a 55lb Rocna and it was recommended that I consider an anchor swivel.

Can anyone suggest a particular vendor/model that would be one to consider?

Thanks in advance.

Jeff
Mainship 40

This is the one I use on our 390 with a Vulcan works well used it for years on our sailboats
https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=10379|11242&product=56012215&code=773692076089

 

[Shrew]

Fair enough Shrew, but I think if coming up the wrong way was a huge issue, having reviewed all this, I'd go for the flip-link solution rather than a swivel. But I know swivels work for many so it's each to his own, I guess. However, I well remember a favourite saying of a past member, Marin, who always used to say, "nothing ever fails - until it does..!"

There isn't enough distance from the end of the anchor shank and the windlass to fit a flip-link on our boat. The anchor doesn't 'come up wrong', per se. What happens is there is twist in the chain. When the anchor is still buried and there is 20 feet of chain on the seabed, the chain between the seabed and the pulpit can't seem to untwist. I have to keep stopping and manually untwisting the chain every few feet in order to get it to feed into the gypsy.

When we installed a swivel, this no longer occurred. I'm not sure a flip link would resolve that problem for us.

 

[MurrayM]

What have people been doing in regards to this:

Further if using a stainless steel swivel on the galvanized chain, try to isolate the two materials with insulating tape to reduce the galvanic interaction between the two dissimilar metals.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-...ebase/swivels/

 

[Efrack]

I lost a Rocna last summer in Desolation Sound due to swivel failure and side loading. Happened while we were doing a stern tie. Wasn't apparent until strong onshore wind came up and the boat started drifting closer toward shore. When we pulled in some chain to move away from shore we drifted astern even faster. As I held the boat in place with the engine my wife pulled in the remaining chain without the anchor! I still have ½ of the splayed failed part and never hesitate to show my fellow boaters so they won't make the same mistake. I will never use one again!

 

[psneeld]

I lost a Rocna last summer in Desolation Sound due to swivel failure and side loading. Happened while we were doing a stern tie. Wasn't apparent until strong onshore wind came up and the boat started drifting closer toward shore. When we pulled in some chain to move away from shore we drifted astern even faster. As I held the boat in place with the engine my wife pulled in the remaining chain without the anchor! I still have ½ of the splayed failed part and never hesitate to show my fellow boaters so they won't make the same mistake. I will never use one again!

Could you please elaborate a bit....

What kind of swivel?

Did you have a shackle between the swivel and anchor? What kind?

Or were the jaws attached to the anchor?