44lb Bruce is too much...

[toocoys]

An electrician would have all that gear - and know how to use it. Just sayin'...

Yeah, and I wouldn’t be in any better position once he left. At least I’m learning. If I can figure this out, if any issue ever arises again, I’ll know how to fix it. Especially if it happens while we’re out.

I did confirm that it’s wired with 10/2 wiring instead of 6/2 like the mfg suggests. And I think I’ve traced the wire run so I hope to start pulling it out soon.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Yeah, and I wouldn’t be in any better position once he left. At least I’m learning. If I can figure this out, if any issue ever arises again, I’ll know how to fix it. Especially if it happens while we’re out.



I did confirm that it’s wired with 10/2 wiring instead of 6/2 like the mfg suggests. And I think I’ve traced the wire run so I hope to start pulling it out soon.

Peter comment was meaningful and for your safety. If you did not know the difference between AC and DC (or noticed the meter symbols) this may mean that you lack the basics. This is very good attitude to want to learn but I would recommend to start from the basics before trying to fix issues. (No bad intend just think about safety).

L

 

[toocoys]

Peter comment was meaningful and for your safety. If you did not know the difference between AC and DC (or noticed the meter symbols) this may mean that you lack the basics. This is very good attitude to want to learn but I would recommend to start from the basics before trying to fix issues. (No bad intend just think about safety).

L

Oh I definitely lack the basics! I just haven’t gotten to the point where I’m ready to give up yet.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I bought a multimeter similar to this specifically to measure the DC amp draw of my windlass. Supposedly reads to 400 amps DC. Haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I'm hoping to find out why my 80A windlass is tripping my 150A circuit breaker.

 

[BruceK]

Oh I definitely lack the basics! I just haven’t gotten to the point where I’m ready to give up yet.

Don`t, you are making progress,(though "AC Clamp Meter" was a clue). A DC meter at about the price of an elect`s hour will be yours forever(unless you can borrow one).

 

[toocoys]

(though "AC Clamp Meter" was a clue)..

That’s why I was never promoted to detective... lol

 

[rgano]

That’s why I was never promoted to detective... lol

With a DC clamp meter you will become Boat Detective fist class!

 

[sbman]

You don't need a clamp meter. They are great, and would be nice but not necessary to do basic troubleshooting.

Test the voltage AT the windlass terminals while it tries but fails to lift the anchor. If the voltage falls very low (10 volts or less) and the windlass isn't heating up, there is a likely a wiring issue, it's really that simple. You can keep measuring different points with the same test, and you'll find the voltage drop, at some point you'll read the 12+ volts of the battery but it could be the wires, the relays or the terminals that are causing the voltage drop.

It's likely your 10 AWG wires that are causing the voltage drop (and subsequent lack of AMPS to turn your windlass)

 

[MYTraveler]

You don't need a clamp meter. They are great, and would be nice but not necessary to do basic troubleshooting.

Test the voltage AT the windlass terminals while it tries but fails to lift the anchor. If the voltage falls very low (10 volts or less) and the windlass isn't heating up, there is a likely a wiring issue, it's really that simple. You can keep measuring different points with the same test, and you'll find the voltage drop, at some point you'll read the 12+ volts of the battery but it could be the wires, the relays or the terminals that are causing the voltage drop.

That sounds mostly right to me, but you won't read 12 volts at the battery if it is bad.

 

[BruceK]

..It's likely your 10 AWG wires that are causing the voltage drop (and subsequent lack of AMPS to turn your windlass)

I get that the cable may be undersized, though from memory it`s only a 25A windlass motor. But at some stage, the install must have functioned,it`s not a new boat, it would likely have been used in a range of ways, incl anchoring.Suggesting something changed. ? Marginally ok wiring has degraded. Or something else preventing the wiring conducting power as designed, like a bad connection.

 

[toocoys]

That sounds mostly right to me, but you won't read 12 volts at the battery if it is bad.

The batteries are all brand new. Both starting batteries, and the house bank batteries were just installed in January.

But at some stage, the install must have functioned,it`s not a new boat, it would likely have been used in a range of ways...

It did function, when it had an 10-20lb danforth anchor on it. However, it was probably never used. (We only used it once with the old undersized anchor) I found paperwork for the original windlass which was a Powerwinch model 603. The previous owner of the boat was a single woman who was a friend of ours and never took the boat out. I'm figuring this current windlass was installed by a local yacht service when the original windlass quit working, simply to be able to sell the boat.

 

[MYTraveler]

The batteries are all brand new. Both starting batteries, and the house bank batteries were just installed in January.

Let me rephrase my comment. If you can't read 12 volts on fully-charged batteries under that load, then at least one cell in those brand new batteries is bad. If you are going to the trouble of tracing voltage, you might as well go all the way back to batteries with an open mind to the possibility that they are the problem.

 

[socalrider]

Let me rephrase my comment. If you can't read 12 volts on fully-charged batteries under that load, then at least one cell in those brand new batteries is bad. If you are going to the trouble of tracing voltage, you might as well go all the way back to batteries with an open mind to the possibility that they are the problem.

That sounds right to me.

Once when I was younger I got stranded alone on a motorcycle during a downpour in a sketchy part of northern Mexico with nightfall approaching - I'd pulled over to put on rain gear and the bike wouldn't start up. I measured the battery voltage & it was fine (12.5V or so), and the battery was new, so I checked that off the list and wasted an hour troubleshooting as things got dark. Finally I measured the voltage *while* pushing the start button and it crashed to 4V. Ahh... Really need to test batteries under load.

 

[toocoys]

Let me rephrase my comment. If you can't read 12 volts on fully-charged batteries under that load, then at least one cell in those brand new batteries is bad. If you are going to the trouble of tracing voltage, you might as well go all the way back to batteries with an open mind to the possibility that they are the problem.

It did this with the old batteries as well. I doubt it's the batteries, since they were installed along with the battery bank by a marine electrician, but I'll check them.

Although, now you've got me wondering. I've only ever tried to use this windlass with this anchor while we are at the dock - which means that we've always been plugged into shore power, and my battery charger has been on when testing the windlass. I'm wondering if that may play into the equation.

I did try the windlass with the motors running on Thursday but that didn't prove anything different.

I think I've traced the wire from the windlass, through the gunnels and to the point where they either go into the engine room to the batteries or up to the helm. I just haven't gotten up the nerve to start pulling them yet. I'm going to have to remove a couple access panels, a cabinet in the salon, and a cabinet in the forward head to make sure that I'm pulling exactly what I think I'm pulling.

 

[SteveK]

what is the distance from the batteries and what is the size of the +/- cables to the switch relay. Rule out not enough juice following.
Then find the relay switch to make sure it is passing through full connection.

 

[SteveK]

On this thread success found

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1018394&postcount=9

 

[Peter B]

It did this with the old batteries as well. I doubt it's the batteries, since they were installed along with the battery bank by a marine electrician, but I'll check them.....
.....I think I've traced the wire from the windlass, through the gunnels and to the point where they either go into the engine room to the batteries or up to the helm. I just haven't gotten up the nerve to start pulling them yet. I'm going to have to remove a couple access panels, a cabinet in the salon, and a cabinet in the forward head to make sure that I'm pulling exactly what I think I'm pulling.

Please just call in the marine electrician before you go ripping into cabinetry, etc. It makes no sense that the boat was wired incorrectly right from new, so I suspect you are missing something much simpler.

DIY is all very well, and I did a lot of it - but it is also good to recognise, and admit, when you're beat - especially when it looks like expense is going to be the least of your worries. There is no dishonour in accepting that discretion is the better part of valour.

 

[BruceK]

Please just call in the marine electrician before you go ripping into cabinetry, etc. It makes no sense that the boat was wired incorrectly right from new, so I suspect you are missing something much simpler.

DIY is all very well, and I did a lot of it - but it is also good to recognise, and admit, when you're beat - especially when it looks like expense is going to be the least of your worries. There is no dishonour in accepting that discretion is the better part of valour.

Toocoys,I think Peter is right, an electrician should be able to test the wiring for capacity, and would probably be more experienced running new cable through difficult areas. Even so, I admire your tenacity, and if you feel you can, have at it.
I get the possibility the install never worked, and a 25A motor doesn`t seem powerful in this context. Can you download a Manual for the windlass from the mfr, Muir are good like that, hopefully your mfr is too, it might give cabling specs.

 

[FlyWright]

Have you looked for corroded connections or bad ground with a DVM ohmmeter?

 

[toocoys]

It makes no sense that the boat was wired incorrectly right from new, so I suspect you are missing something much simpler. :

I am calling the electrician to help diagnose problems. However this wiring was installed by someone after the factory. This entire windlass was “bubba’d” at some point.

 

[socalrider]

I am calling the electrician to help diagnose problems. However this wiring was installed by someone after the factory. This entire windlass was “bubba’d” at some point.

No shame in that! Try to be there and ask tons of questions so you understand their process. Can greatly accelerate the learning curve to see a talkative pro at work!

 

[toocoys]

So as it turns out, the 44lb Bruce may be too much after all.

I cut the wires at the windlass, took a set of jumper cables and the battery from my generator up to the front of the boat, and ran it on direct power. While it did lift the anchor off the bottom, and up to the bow, it was still rather weak in my eyes. It also got bogged down trying to get it over the bow roller and I had to help it over manually. I suppose the redneck knot I had tied in the rope didn’t help things.

So now I know that A.) it is strong enough to retrieve the anchor, B.) the motor is not burnt, and C.) it most likely is a wiring issue. It drew so many amps that the jumper cable clamps made indentions in the post and sort of “welded” themselves to it.

I’m fairly certain that this anchor is oversized for our 21,000lb 37’ boat, so I’m not sure if I want to :
- go a size or two smaller in anchor
- upgrade the wiring and install a better windlass
- go with a manual windlass

I know for certain I can’t outlay two grand for a lewmar or something right now.

ETA: websites like Fortress suggest I need around a 20lb anchor.

 

[rslifkin]

I’m fairly certain that this anchor is oversized for our 21,000lb 37’ boat

Not at all. I'd personally call a 44lb Bruce insufficient for your boat. I'd want something a little bigger and of newer design. If using a Bruce, I'd be looking at the 66lb one at minimum.

 

[SteveK]

I do not think a 44# anchor is too big for the boat. I bet you can haul in that anchor by hand off the bottom. Your problem remains the windlass is not strong enough, either worn out or undersized, or not enough power.

I once wanted to replace the ends of jumper cable and was surprised at the small size of the wire surrounded by thick plastic to make it seem heavy duty. Your description suggest your jumpers got hot.

From your written words I am not sure your test was successful in execution as a result. IMO of course.

 

[toocoys]

Not at all. I'd personally call a 44lb Bruce insufficient for your boat. I'd want something a little bigger and of newer design. If using a Bruce, I'd be looking at the 66lb one at minimum.

Why? 44/45lbs is considered a storm anchor for this size boat. The day/cruising anchors are suggested at 18-30lbs.

We’re only 21,000lbs, in inland waters, in good weather, and a max of 7nm away from the banks.

Yes I agree the windlass is underpowered/cheap/insufficient and has bad wiring.

 

[rgano]

It is likely that the jumper cables did not make the solid kind of contact that you get with properly sized and bolted down battery cable terminals. Nonetheless, you did some good troubleshooting. It is not unusual to see anchors hang up when the anchor shackle meets the roller. The pivoting double roller at the outboard end of your system could very well resolve that issue.

 

[rslifkin]

Why? 44/45lbs is considered a storm anchor for this size boat. The day/cruising anchors are suggested at 18-30lbs.

We’re only 21,000lbs, in inland waters, in good weather, and a max of 7nm away from the banks.

Yes I agree the windlass is underpowered/cheap/insufficient and has bad wiring.

It depends on who's chart you look at. And honestly, any anchor that isn't sized to hold in some 40 kt gusts when the weather takes an unexpected turn is way too small in my mind no matter where you boat.



Weight-wise, a Fortress is different due to design. But in most other designs, generally, weight is a good proxy for size.

 

[toocoys]

From your written words I am not sure your test was successful in execution as a result. IMO of course.

My test was successful enough to tell me that the motor is not worn out, the windlass can retrieve a 44lb anchor, and that I have undersized wiring which I figured out many posts ago.

The thing is, I can go spend $100 at the boaters resale and get a lighter “day anchor” and live with this cheap/undersized/underwired windlass while we recover from the generator install for the rest of this season, and actually go cruising. Or I can drop $2k on a new windlass and wiring and forego cruising another season.

 

[rslifkin]

If you want to go that route, get an appropriately sized Fortress (go a bit bigger than their recommendation) and then later on, that can become your second / stern / spare anchor.

 

[sbman]

My test was successful enough to tell me that the motor is not worn out, the windlass can retrieve a 44lb anchor, and that I have undersized wiring which I figured out many posts ago.

The thing is, I can go spend $100 at the boaters resale and get a lighter “day anchor” and live with this cheap/undersized/underwired windlass while we recover from the generator install for the rest of this season, and actually go cruising. Or I can drop $2k on a new windlass and wiring and forego cruising another season.

Just because it worked marginally does not mean it's working as designed. The brushes/commutator on the motor could be worn/burnt and not putting out the power it should, there could be a short in one of the internal windings.

Your Powerwinch 41' Class is supposed to have 900 pounds of pull. If you are able to manually pull the chain up and get the anchor on board, I am certain you are not pulling 900 pounds of force! If it's not pulling 900 pounds then something is wrong with the motor, the wiring or the internals or some combination thereof.

The Powerwinch is supposed to draw 25 amps maximum. For a 30' ROUND TRIP cable run, that requires 6AWG wire. 40-50' round trip should be 4 AWG. Yes the instructions state 6 AWG up to 70' but they are quoting a 10% voltage drop which is a waste of power and performance.

With your 10 gauge wire, at a 40 foot round trip run, you are losing a minimum of 20% of your power in the wire! That puts less than 9.6 volts at the windlass, assuming your batteries are maintaining 12.5 under load.

While testing with jumper cables was a decent idea and a helpful data point, it's not conclusive. If the windlass isn't performing as designed, it's possible it could be repaired and then rewired to perform correctly.

Without the ability to perform basic troubleshooting (measure voltage drop under load, measure current draw, etc...) you are just spinning your wheels.