Oil Pressure Sender: To Dope or not to Dope? That is the question!

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JDCAVE

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Phoenix Hunter
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Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
After a hiatus with building an instrument panel for my NL 5KW Genny, I have returned to the project. The Faria Gauges I bought are mismatched with the sender units on the Genny. The oil pressure reads about 1/2 of what it should be. The simplest process is to replace the senders, as the VDO gauges are difficult to source right now, and I am uncertain as to whether the existing senders are for one station or two. I suspect they are two station senders. In any event...

The wiring diagram specification for the NL genny, indicates a 1/8" NTP sender (Oil Pressure) however, the Faria sender is 1/8" NTPF. Talking to various machinists, and it seems the two threads are interchangeable, however, a pipe dope is called for. I phoned Faria Customer service and he told me "do not use pipe dope as the senders ground onto the engine block and he said they have had problems when people use pipe dope.

So what are the thoughts out there?

Edit: Also would it be possible to use an electrically conductive paste such as NoAlox?

Jim
 
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We just put new senders on my engines and the mechanic did use a dope. Haven’t tried them yet obviously so don’t know how they will work.
 
I wouldn't replace senders because you don't known if they are one station or two -- I'd just check them with an ohm meter to determine that.

It isnt that NTP and NTPF require sealant because they are different types. It is that NTP requires sealant because of a very minor difference in spec between the two that means the NTP threads won't interference fit with each other and may or may not interference fit with NTPF.

I can't imagine the sealant inteferening with the resistence. I think there will be enough interference. I'd install it with sealant-- and then check with a meter to make sure it is good. Easy enough. Full confidence.
 
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From Wikipedia:
Quote
National Pipe Taper Fuel (NPTF, also called Dryseal American National Standard Taper Pipe Thread, defined by ASME B1.20.3) is designed to provide a more leak-free seal without the use of PTFE tape (often referred to by the popular brand name "Teflon") or another sealant compound. NPTF threads have the same basic shape but with crest and root heights adjusted for an interference fit, eliminating the spiral leakage path.
Unquote

This implies to me that NO SEALANT is required (I was not previously aware of NPTF - my learning for the day).

I do agree with STB above. Even using dope type sealant (or teflon tape), there will always be metallic contact.

If your problem is only that the senders are for dual stations you could simulate the presence of a second station by putting a fixed resistor in parallel with the single gage. Measure the resistance of the existing gage and use the same.
 
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I have always heard that sealant will smoosh out of the way enough to allow good electrical contact. I use it on pencil zincs, for example, and they still work. On the other hand, I have always heard that teflon tape can NOT be depended on to allow good electrical contact. And I don't know about you guys, but I have never encountered a tapered thread joint that will seal without some sort of sealant. And many don't seal even with sealant. I absolutely hate them, but there is no escaping them.
 
I installed the sender with a slight smear of pipe dope. Continuity metre showed good contact. The sender seems to work fine and proves a reasonable reading on the gauge. No leaks.

Jim
 
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I was just watching a SBmar video on oil pressure senders and Tony recommended putting dope on the sender. Also on anodes.
 
In my mind, by design, if either the male or female (or both) are threaded NPT, sealant is required (.)

In my mind, by design, if both are NPTF, sealant is not required.

Having said that, if contamination isnt a concern, my experience is that, within reason, a bit of sealant is harmless -- making it the safest choice if the thread type isn't confidently known or if excessive thread wear is a potential concern.

I've never had a problem with common thread sealant measurably increasing electrical resistance for this type of low voltage, low current circuit -- and I always check with a meter both when fresh and after any drying/curing.
 
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Had to look it up the 'F' stands for fuel and thus no sealant which the fuel could disolve I suppose. sealant or no sealant is the difference, the thread is the same,

Made me wonder why have both.
 
sealant or no sealant is the difference, the thread is the same,

Made me wonder why have both.

That's not quite correct.

The thread pitch is the same. But the NPTF system was tweaked to increase thread "interference", e.g. thread metal-to-metal contact with mating thread metal. By memory this was done by adding a bit of metal at the base of the threads for the mating thread to bite into.

I don't know for sure I'm this case, but the usual reason to use a sealant-based seal vs an interference-based seal include the need for an interference-based seal to maintain higher manufacturing tolerances, i.e. costs, and that non-interference seals generally suffer less from wear and thereby retain greater serviceability. Also, interference seals generally require softer metals versus those that will gall or cold weld upon experiencing interference.

Most folks who complain that NPTF threads never seal for them are, for example, probably mating them to NPT threads -- or are using parts that have been exercised enough during service to reduce the interference seal, rendering them into something functionally more like NPT threads.
 
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That's not quite correct.

The thread pitch is the same. But the NPTF system was tweaked to increase thread "interference", e.g. thread metal-to-metal contact with mating thread metal. By memory this was done by adding a bit of metal at the base of the threads for the mating thread to bite into.

I don't know for sure I'm this case, but the usual reason to use a sealant-based seal vs an interference-based seal include the need for an interference-based seal to maintain higher manufacturing tolerances, i.e. costs, and that non-interference seals generally suffer less from wear and thereby retain greater serviceability. Also, interference seals generally require softer metals versus those that will gall or cold weld upon experiencing interference.

Most folks who complain that NPTF threads never seal for them are, for example, probably mating them to NPT threads -- or are using parts that have been exercised enough during service to reduce the interference seal, rendering them into something functionally more like NPT threads.
everything you said, and I repeat, why bother making two slightly different where one will go into the other. We all got used to the same size bolt having fine or course thread, but that you can see.
 
everything you said, and I repeat, why bother making two slightly different where one will go into the other. We all got used to the same size bolt having fine or course thread, but that you can see.

A lot of engineering went into designing a thread and taper that was robust, would reliably seal, and was economic to manufacture. Then they defined a higher grade that could do it dry, but wasn't reusable or reseatable, because either could change the thread shape beyond spec, and was more expensive to produce.

Should they not sell the lower grade and force everyone to use the higher grade? Perhaps make something about the threads fail on reversal, so they can't be reused? Or intentionally spend money engineering a solution to prevent the higher grade from serving as a substitute for the lower grade? Or engineer an entirely new solution just to be incompatible?

Why do they make bolts with the same thread pattern in carbon steel, low grade stainless, 304 stainless, other iron alloys, aluminum, various aluminum alloys, various brass and bronze alloys, and out of various "plastics" and/or with various coatings or heat treatments? Shouldn't each have its own incomplatible thread pattern to prevent someone from using the wrong one?

What stops me from putting a 304 bolt into my 316 rails? Or a grade 2 bolt into my engine where a grade 8 bolt should be used? Or, .....?

I suspect doing what you suggest would lead to an interesting world and quite a pandora's box.

Understand this stuff out of the gate is exactly what distinguishes the trained trades folks from the rest of us whom learn it by experience as we go. I think.
 
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Seems to me that NPT is the result of inspection failure of the NPTF. That is why it is sold for less. I cannot see them specifically making a lower grade when the scrap rate is so high. So can the naked eye see the difference?

Production Cost
Machining: The production process for NTF and NPT is the same. Therefore the machining cost is identical.
Inspection: The NPTF standard requires 3 gaging tests for acceptance (Only one in NPT). Therefore the inspection cost of NPTF is higher.
Quality: The scrap rate in the production of NPTF threads is higher. An unattentive worker can easily produce nonconforming parts. This is the most significant factor that increases the cost of NPTF threads
 
Seems to me that NPT is the result of inspection failure of the NPTF. That is why it is sold for less. I cannot see them specifically making a lower grade when the scrap rate is so high. So can the naked eye see the difference?

No, they’re just different spec. just like parallel thread. You can put a tapered thread fitting into a parallel thread too.
The naked eye probably can’t tell the difference between npt and nptf unless the eye is trained. The interference fit is very small.
And when they say more scrap is produced, it’s in reality a pretty insignificant amount in a production environment.
Making a one off in the lathe might be a chore. Gotta sneak up on it.
 
Not sure why this thread strayed as they all do, but you guys should do some research. I did and everywhere it says the threads are the same, the fit to make it leakproof without dope is the difference.
 
Seems to me that NPT is the result of inspection failure of the NPTF. That is why it is sold for less. I cannot see them specifically making a lower grade when the scrap rate is so high. So can the naked eye see the difference?

I guess I don't know what is meant by "production process" in whatever material you quoted. It might well be that the nominal set of steps are the same. I don't think that means that the steps are necessarily configured to produce the same result. It might also be that the unnamed source you cite is incorrect or being used at a level of detail beyond what was intended.

To the best of my understanding, although it is true that the spec for the crests of NPTF threads fall within (tighter tolerance than) the spec for NPT thread crests, this is not true of the thread root. My understanding is that an NPTF thread has a nominal shape that is different than, and falls outside of the tolerances of a nominal NPT thread. Specifically, my understanding is that NPT thread roots are V-shaped, whereas NPTF thread roots have the bottom of the V filled in and flat to generate more interference. And that, because there is more metal at the root of an NPTF thread than allowed at the root of an NPT thread, I don't think one can inspect (or inspection fail) one into another.

What would happen if someone sold out of spec NPTF devices as NPT devices? Dunno. They'd probably get away with it. But I don't think that is the intention of the spec.

I also don't understand the gauging tests that your document mentions. In my understanding, there are two different classes of NPTF threads. I think one may be for liquids and most gasses and one may be for gasses that really cant leak even a modest little over time. I don't remember. In any case, my understanding is that the difference between these two classes of NPTF threads is the testing plan. One class requires the testing of a bunch of properties post-production, and one class tests only a couple of properties post-production -- and allows for the calibration of the production process to guarantee the other properties within tolerance. In this case of NPTF threads, I think one class can fail into the other class.

The document you cite also doesn't make much sense to me with respect to the production process. Often times when the spec allows for a wider tolerance one is able to increase the lifetime of the tooling and allow for more contamination from production before being required to replace worn out tooling or clean contamination. In other words, production continues without maintenance until occurances of out-of-tolerance parts exceed some rate, at which time the tooling is replaced or contamination is cleared, as is indicated by the failure mode and production volume. So, I'd be surprised if NPTs more relaxed tolerances didn't allow for more economical production due to kit life and reduced maintenance considerations, e.g. lit and labor.

I also don't understand that documents focus on human tolerances. Either of these specifications is sufficiently tight w.r.t. tolerances that tooling controls the tolerances, not people. At least I'd expect. I don't think the operator is difference, at least in 2024.

Ultimately, I think one can tolerance fail from one class of NPTF to another class of NPTF, but not to NPT.

Can I tell the difference between NPTF and NPT with my naked eye? Nope. No way. Can I see the difference in the root under magnification? You betcha.

Does that matter? Nope. If I'm doing something that requires NPTF it is, as it is required to be, fresh out of the pack each time -- and tested when done.

If I'm doing something that only requires NPT, I'll use either one with a little bit of sealant and be golden.

And that is exactly why I think this is a temptest in a teapot. Just use sealant if the application allows it. And, if not, use fresh NPTF connections each time.

If you are willing to reuse any part of it, and aren't okay with it leaking -- use sealant. If not, replace the connections and assemble carefully per the requires protocol such as to avoid damaging anything in the process.
 
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Not sure why this thread strayed as they all do, but you guys should do some research. I did and everywhere it says the threads are the same, the fit to make it leakproof without dope is the difference.


Done my research. Also have friends who work with refrigeration liquids and gases, industrial gasses, and hydraulic systems and similar who do this stuff all day long, day in and day out. I'm not just reading random posts by folks I don't know with credentials unknown to me.

Feel free to disbelieve me because I'm just another Internet poster to you. I get it. But, please don't accuse me of not having done my research. Please.

I've worked with this stuff myself. I've looked at the fittings under magnification. I've asked friends who do it for a living what I should be doing and why. I've read the standards myself. And I've read a bunch of random Internet postings.

I try to have a deep understand of how things work because I enjoy it and because I enjoy being able to chat with those who know more than me about things and like to be prepared to learn. I like to be able to do more and do better and help more each day.

I get some things wrong and I try to own that quickly and easily and with heartfelt gratitude to those who taught me and helped me grow.

I might be wrong about anything. But, I'm most definitely not shooting from the hip on this one.

Thank you!
 
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From the adopted standard documents I cited above...see the difference?

The thing is, for most of our boats, the answer is simple: Use a little sealant if reusing any part of one of these connections, if using an NPT fitting, or if unsure of the fitting, as long as the sealant isn't incompatible with the fluid being carried or a risk to upstream parts of the system.
 

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"...in all appearances these two threads are identical except for the small differences in the thread peaks and the valleys..." wrm.

It also claims that a difference is that one is roll formed and the other mill formed vs what I understand to be your earlier claim that NPT and NPTF use the same production process. (I've made no claim about the threads forming technique).

In any case, I'm not gonna' put YouTube over the standards docs. Sowwy, but they are at vastly different levels of detail.

I think we've covered the "Maintenance & Systems" bits here. I've got nothing more to add, and the world is a vast and interesting place. This thread has been fun, but I'll be on other adventures now.

SteveK: Even if were not agreeing on this one, thanks for your many contributions to the forum. Be well!
 
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Some direct experience

I recently replaced one of my Oil pressure senders, and confronted this sealing issue. I decided to go with the blue goop pipe sealer that says compatible with water and oil. It works. i.e., the gauge reads properly and there's no leakage.
 
Since the sender requires electrical contact with the engine block to function, I would not use pipe dope or Teflon tape.
 
The threads will bite through any sealant or tape and contact the base metal. I’ve never had an issue in the 45 plus years of doing it that way.
Just like using crimp electrical fittings filled with dialectic grease. That grease is an insulator, but when you crimp the fitting, the grease is displaced at the contact points. 0 ohms resistance.
 
The threads will bite through any sealant or tape and contact the base metal. I’ve never had an issue in the 45 plus years of doing it that way.
Just like using crimp electrical fittings filled with dialectic grease. That grease is an insulator, but when you crimp the fitting, the grease is displaced at the contact points. 0 ohms resistance.

+ 1
 
After a hiatus with building an instrument panel for my NL 5KW Genny, I have returned to the project. The Faria Gauges I bought are mismatched with the sender units on the Genny. The oil pressure reads about 1/2 of what it should be. The simplest process is to replace the senders, as the VDO gauges are difficult to source right now, and I am uncertain as to whether the existing senders are for one station or two. I suspect they are two station senders. In any event...

The wiring diagram specification for the NL genny, indicates a 1/8" NTP sender (Oil Pressure) however, the Faria sender is 1/8" NTPF. Talking to various machinists, and it seems the two threads are interchangeable, however, a pipe dope is called for. I phoned Faria Customer service and he told me "do not use pipe dope as the senders ground onto the engine block and he said they have had problems when people use pipe dope.






So what are the thoughts out there?

Edit: Also would it be possible to use an electrically conductive paste such as NoAlox?





Jim




As others have said, using pipe dope should NOT affect the ground resistance. BUT test it yourself. Install with-out, test using an ohm meter. Then remove, add dope and retest. Because the threads on the sender will contact the threads in the block, I doubt there would be an issue. 12
 
See post #9. I would trust Tony Athens on anything engine related.
 
I am not going to argue or quote technical papers.
I ALWAYS use a good pipe dope such as the Rectorseal offerings. Depending upon what I am sealing, water, fuel, I will use different sealers but always use a sealer. There are other good ones if the Rectorseal is not available.

Even on hose to hose barb connections. It saves the hose from freezing on. A fight ,yes, sometimes but the connection will release after the discussion.
I coat the barb , not the hose ID.

I make a point of NOT slobbering sealers all over the fittings, keeping the coverage somewhat back of the thread end.
I no longer use a TFE tape especially in anything hydraulic. TO easy to shed a piece which can enter a valve causing erratic or lack of operation.

I too use a sealer of my anodes, the ones for the heat exchangers as they are always screwed in. I smear some on the anode threads and then install them in the brass cap with a vise or heavy pliers and wrench a bit more than just snug.
THen test the connection for less than 1 ohm.

I then install the assembly in the heat exchanger , similar assembly and check with the ohmmeter again for less than 1 ohm.
The corroded anode remains, with this assembly procedure, always to date, ,have come out. No fishing.

My large anodes, shaft and keel, get the same treatment with the ohmmeter. It has saved my bacon a couple times with a questionable installation requiring a redo. I use strip sandpaper to clean the mounting places for the shaft zincs and wipe down with alcohol.


Mine is not the only way but I DO NOT any longer use TFE tape in these applications.
 
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