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Old 12-01-2020, 07:47 AM   #1
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loran comeback?

The newest military branch (Space Cadets) and the FAA are getting concerned about the ease with which GPS can be knocked out.

One solution they are looking out is a modernized " eLoran" system.
It will be digital not analog.

The Coast Guard claims for $300-$400million they can rebuild enough land stations (19) to restore a much more accurate system.

A single GPS sat. is $577 million .Multiple sats. are required for a fix.

Your old Loran is junk but if approved the new system will be more robust.
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:45 AM   #2
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That’s pretty cool. Would probably be even more accurate depending on what they make available to the average Joe. Wonder how far off shore it will carry?
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:46 AM   #3
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The newest military branch (Space Cadets) and the FAA are getting concerned about the ease with which GPS can be knocked out.

One solution they are looking out is a modernized " eLoran" system.
It will be digital not analog.

The Coast Guard claims for $300-$400million they can rebuild enough land stations (19) to restore a much more accurate system.

A single GPS sat. is $577 million .Multiple sats. are required for a fix.

Your old Loran is junk but if approved the new system will be more robust.
Interesting. Do you have any links to the rough plans? The old loran system was for near coastal and useful for some inland. GPS is world wide. For loran to replace GPS completely it would have to cover land areas as well as over water.

As an interesting aside. In the early days of GPS before the constellation was complete I used a Northstar unit that combined Loran and GPS taking advantage of both system's good attributes. Loran's repeatability and at the time always on, GPS's absolute accuracy, even in the days of selective availability. As we worked a region the Northstar would use GPS to build a correction for Loran. I could see the accuracy improve very quickly. That was long ago before we put near 100% trust in electronic positioning and chart plotters were still just a dream.
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:58 AM   #4
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https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...s-up-on-eloran



French and German government sources said they did not need or use eLoran, pointing to Europe's satellite navigation system Galileo. A German official said Galileo offered an encrypted navigation signal and "maximal protection" against manipulation. An official from Denmark said the country had opted out.
Norway's Ministry of Transport and Communication said eLoran was "outdated and had very few users", adding that lighthouses, markers, and radar beacons provided sufficient navigation safety in waters near the shore.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:39 AM   #5
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It will be interesting to see the future of electronic positioning. GPS has changed the world in many ways. But it's an aging system. Here's link that details the age of the GPS satellites. List of GPS satellites. GPS has a known potential for hostile interruptions. Far too many good links out there to post just one or two. The results of a search for "GPS hositle interruptions". The answer may be to harden and upgrade the present GPS system. Or move to something entirely new. One of the challenges will be that GPS is in nearly everything we use and do. We can't just drop the present signal transmission and receiver processing in favor of something new. The old will have to be supported for quite some time to avoid huge economic disruption. GPS has about $1 billion a day in economic impact in the US. And far greater impact globally.
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:52 AM   #6
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Old 12-01-2020, 09:54 AM   #7
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Maybe now that there is pressure on space launches and equipment from the commercial world, such as SpaceX, the success rate of satellites, newer tech and replacements by quick launches won't make it such a vulnerable system.
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Old 12-01-2020, 10:02 AM   #8
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Interesting with FT8 and other digital signals out there they do get out far under the noise floor and are able to be recieved. I can see something along those lines for a fix.
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Old 12-01-2020, 10:23 AM   #9
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Hate to say it but, the US has been too generous with the GPS tech. There are people in the world who consider, defeating any and all tech a challenge.
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Old 12-01-2020, 05:20 PM   #10
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Hate to say it but, the US has been too generous with the GPS tech. There are people in the world who consider, defeating any and all tech a challenge.
In the immortal words of Jack Willings of Chance, MD, "Some people just need killing".

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Old 12-01-2020, 06:50 PM   #11
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In the immortal words of Jack Willings of Chance, MD, "Some people just need killing".

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and such an easy target. A HARM tuned to 1.575GHz...
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Old 12-01-2020, 06:58 PM   #12
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eLoran. A solution in search of a problem. Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted.
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Old 12-02-2020, 07:20 AM   #13
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"Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted"

The Chinese have already steered one sat into another , creating thousands of chunks of 19,000 mph debris.

A single nuke set off in orbit by any terrorist gang that is given a rocket and old trawler as launch vessel , would do even more damage .

The world's modern defense and transportation systems require precision navigation, a return to the A & N system of the 1930s is impossible.

Govs always get accused after something happens "Why didn't they do something?"

The above dangers has been known for decades.Finally a solution may be possible.
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Old 12-02-2020, 09:32 AM   #14
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The world now relies upon GPS signals in hundreds of ways. Nearly 30 years ago I was working on a project in the former Soviet Union where three different coordinate systems were utilized to confuse the NATO and US military positioning and guidance systems. The only people confused were the individual regions where land surveying was all screwed up.

Within weeks we had transferred the old Soviet Data to new user friendly and accepted geodetic systems used worldwide, whether in land surveying or maritime use. The transfer of that data to GPS systems in place at that time was easily accomplished. Our Russian workmates were astounded as to how easily we could find our way around using digital cartography they never knew existed.

GPS and digital surveying in current and improved guise is here to stay. With all of us able to pull up lat and lon from a smart phone or handheld radio even today's Luddites with charts can survive without pulling out a sextant.
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:00 AM   #15
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sunchaser, what is the name of the app where I can put in Lat and Long numerically and get a chart of the area, please.
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:16 AM   #16
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sunchaser, what is the name of the app where I can put in Lat and Long numerically and get a chart of the area, please.
Here are the three ways I've recently used lat lon data to establish marine positioning.
--SeaNav App
--paper charts
--Nobeltec

All sorts of laptop programs are out there to do the same or better than Nobeltec. A few years while on the bridge of a ship they had a computer based commercial product that was astounding. My Navionics on an I Pad should work too to pull up a chart of that area.

The guide books we use for AK have lat lon data for sites and anchorages that we pull up quite handily on Nobeltec and then set a course accordingly.
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Old 12-02-2020, 10:55 AM   #17
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The world's modern defense and transportation systems require precision navigation, a return to the A & N system of the 1930s is impossibe
GNNS systems are in place by US, Russia, EU, China, India, Japan, if they all go offline there probably won't be any need for planes or ships. There are a billion commercial receivers in use today. eLoran will never be implemented. The R&D money for it was earmarked in some defense contract to buy a vote from some Senator.
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Old 12-02-2020, 11:01 AM   #18
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SeaNav has not been upgraded in a few years.
Maybe still worthy of down loading for the iPad IF there is a way to input Lat and Long and get a chart.
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Old 12-10-2020, 07:35 AM   #19
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Modern weapon guidance systems and military navigation can and is accurately achieved completely onboard (when required) without the need of satellites. During hostilities, in areas of interest, when your GPS enabled device shakes hands with a satellite, unless you own that satellite it can send you back any number of wavelengths the operator dictates. The owner or operator of the satellites also knows where you are. Both can be a little bothersome. You are lost and interested parties know exactly where you are. There are a lot cleverer ways. GPS works just fine to stop me bumping into stuff and find my fishing spot, Iíve just got to work out how to catch em.
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Old 12-10-2020, 07:53 AM   #20
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eLoran. A solution in search of a problem. Total pork barrel project with no value. It will never be adopted.
Until we get into the next war (with the ChiComs or anyone else with some rocket or laser tech) and those GPS satellites start dropping from the sky like Mallards on opening day of duck season.
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