Sort of a loop

[tiz]

Fyi boat us mainship 390 so the fixed bridge on the erie ( and one on champlain canal ) are no problem.

--kevin

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks all. Lots to consider. Now leaning harder to backtracking from buffalo to oswego/ontario/rideau/st lawrence to richleau and into champlain and down to hudson.

To me that would be the most pleasant, and the only backtracking is the western portion of the Erie. And you don't need to go all the way to Buffalo if you don't want to, turning back whenever you feel like it.

 

[rslifkin]

That sounds like a good route to me. And coming from Oswego, you've still got a few good destinations on Lake Ontario within easy reach.

From there, the only one worth heading west for is probably Fair Haven. We've been sitting at anchor there for the last 2 days. Other than some wakes from other boats (which does include some 5am fishing charter departures) it's nice and peaceful and cruiser friendly. Beyond that, stick to destinations that are on your way from Oswego heading northeast.

 

[tiz]

A couple of other questions:

How is customs handled. Crossing Ontario is nds you up in Canada. Then across rideau canal Ontario river to st Lawrence then back into USA.

Then in Champlain, what do people do about the grey water restriction? Not sure how to prepare the sink and shower drains to be contained while in the lake. Is that really a thing?

—Kevin

 

[CharlieO.]

A couple of other questions:

How is customs handled. Crossing Ontario is nds you up in Canada. Then across rideau canal Ontario river to st Lawrence then back into USA.

Then in Champlain, what do people do about the grey water restriction? Not sure how to prepare the sink and shower drains to be contained while in the lake. Is that really a thing?

—Kevin

Don't worry about the grey water drains. You should close and secure your overboard discharge though, some say the y valve needs to be removed.

 

[Jeff F]

How is customs handled. Crossing Ontario is nds you up in Canada. Then across rideau canal Ontario river to st Lawrence then back into USA.

You check in by phone when entering Canada, and by the ROAM app when entering the US. Typically on that route you enter Canada at Brockville or Gananoque in the Thousand Islands, then stay in Canada until you reenter the US at the top of Lake Champlain.

 

[Bacchus]

A couple of other questions:

How is customs handled. Crossing Ontario is nds you up in Canada. Then across rideau canal Ontario river to st Lawrence then back into USA.

Then in Champlain, what do people do about the grey water restriction? Not sure how to prepare the sink and shower drains to be contained while in the lake. Is that really a thing?

—Kevin

tizzy
Customs is fairly easy and you only need to check in when you "land" in Canada not each time you may cross the border traversing the St Lawrence.
Only exceptions are that "landing" includes anchoring or rafting to another boat.

The grey water restriction on Champlain is a myth. Some organizations around the lake infer that grey discharge is prohibited but it's not factual.
If interested, I think I have a paper detailing the requirements.
Some marinas are "clean" marinas and ask boaters to use facilities ashore vs showering on their boats but that's a request and strictly voluntary.

Black water is another story and the regs require the hose be removed for overboard discharge. This is different than other no discharge areas where valve handle can be secured (locked, wire tied, etc) or key switch satisfy the "disabled" requirement. That said, I have not known or heard of anyone being boarded for inspection or fined. I've traveled with others that refused to remove hose and were never asked / checked.

 

[tiz]

Thanks!

—Kevin

 

[tiz]

Any thoughts on things (legal, etc) that need to happen before a trip like this? We have valid passports. Something else?

--kevin

 

[Bacchus]

Kevin
Passports are the real key.
You can download the US ROAM app and fill out personal & boat info ahead of time. That makes the actual check in a little easier having that info already entered / on file.
Wherever you land & check in to Canada the protocol is passengers & crew remain onboard until checked in. Skipper permitted to go ashore to call in / check in. Record the customs / check in # when they give it to you. Post it on a paper taped inside a shore side window for the duration of the time in Canada.
If you are sure you will make the trip Canada offers discounts (5%-10%) on season canal passes & mooring permits before Mar 30? ( for overnite stays at lock walls / docks. The only addnl fee will be for power at locations that have power available. About $10 Cdn IIRC. It's a very enjoyable trip... you will love it.

I'll send you a PM.

 

[Bacchus]

Kevin
I found and uploaded the Sea Grant Study regarding Lake Champlain grey water discharge "regulations" to the TF Library - Red Tape Section. See the file for the complete story... here is the conclusion
From MEMORANDUM OF LAW
To: Lake Champlain Sea Grant
From: Bryce Burgwyn, Research Associate, National Sea Grant Law Center (Supervising
Attorney: Terra Bowling, Research Counsel II, National Sea Grant Law Center)
Re: Lake Champlain Graywater Discharge (NSGLC-19-04-06)
Date: July 19, 2019

" Conclusion
Under the CWA, discharges incidental to the normal operation of recreational vessels, including graywater, into federal waterways are exempt from NPDES permitting requirements. Therefore, recreational boaters may discharge graywater into Lake Champlain without a permit. There are currently no EPA management practices placing limits on graywater discharge from recreational vessels into the waters of the United States. "


For Black Water holding tanks there is a valid regulation / requirement to disconnect any overboard discharge hoses from holding tank / macerator. Some have questioned the validity as it is different than other federal NDZs but my understanding is that this further clarification of how to meet the Fed NDZ restrictions is legally binding.
That said I know several boaters that disregarded the disconnection regulation and were never questioned or boarded. I have never heard of a boater fine being assessed a fine but doesn't remove the possibility of one.
Hope it helps

 

[twistedtree]

You will also need to get a DTOPS sticker for the boat for re-entry into the US. https://dtops.cbp.dhs.gov/main/# Relatively inexpensive, and can be ordered online and will be mailed to you within a couple of weeks.

 

[tiz]

Starting to wonder- what to bring as we set out. From western li sound and up the hudson river are not remote areas. Grocery shopping / hardware / marine supply in erie canal / rideau / richleau? Upper champlain will be kind of remote i guess. Then we're definitely back in civilization as we finish the hudson and back to western li sound.

Assume the boat is mechanically well prepared.

Thoughts?

--kevin

 

[rslifkin]

On the Hudson and Erie there are certainly places you can provision, places you could get a part shipped to, etc. None of it is particularly remote. Although planning to carry enough that you only provision at the most ideal locations will make things more convenient. Ability to go a few days without needing water or shore power also makes a big difference in flexibility when planning where to stop each night.

 

[PierreR]

Starting to wonder- what to bring as we set out. From western li sound and up the hudson river are not remote areas. Grocery shopping / hardware / marine supply in erie canal / rideau / richleau? Upper champlain will be kind of remote i guess. Then we're definitely back in civilization as we finish the hudson and back to western li sound.

Assume the boat is mechanically well prepared.

Thoughts?

--kevin

Remember you will likely be walking to get groceries. Grocery stores inhabit cheap real estate. Your idea of "remote" is likely to net you easier access to groceries and even boat stuff. The canals are small town, not remote.

 

[tiz]

We will have bikes to make grocery getting / errands a bit easier. Water has been holding out 4-5 days or more per refill. Shore power only needed for a/c if its really hot. Holding tank seems to last 3-4 days.

--kevin

 

[PierreR]

I found the Hudson and NYC to be more confusing and difficult than the canals. Biking structure along the canals is much better. The western Erie Canal is extremely cheap for docking and exploring.

 

[Jeff F]

We will have bikes to make grocery getting / errands a bit easier. Water has been holding out 4-5 days or more per refill. Shore power only needed for a/c if its really hot. Holding tank seems to last 3-4 days.

You'll be fine. I'd suggest a foldable cart or wagon to walk with groceries. I used to carry a bike trailer, but have found that with most stops along your route there are grocery stores within easy walking distance. For big runs I'll sometimes walk to a store and Uber back.

None of this route is particularly remote by my standards. Shore side access on the canals is generally easy; and stops are frequent and closely spaced.

 

[bumpkin]

Don't stress about retracing part of your route on the Erie Canal. It is a wonderful trip, enjoyable enough to retrace. I met a cruiser, claiming to be a looper, who was on the Erie Canal for his 5th year. He said the Erie and its people were so enjoyable that he has never left to complete his loop. He comes every spring to take his boat out of storage and goes up and down the NY canal system.

Lisa and I liked the Erie. Most towns have a dock wall for overnights and the prices go from free, to donations upto small fees, I think $25 was the most expensive. There were small festivals and summer concerts at many towns.

Mike

 

[Bacchus]

We will have bikes to make grocery getting / errands a bit easier. Water has been holding out 4-5 days or more per refill. Shore power only needed for a/c if its really hot. Holding tank seems to last 3-4 days.

--kevin

Bikes will make provisioning much easier. A rack & bungies, attached bike pack, and back pack all help with larger hauls. There are plenty of stops that are 1-3 days apart, depending on what sort of provisions you are in need of.
Pump outs are more expensive in Canada but staying at lock walls provides the opportunity to use the lock restrooms and stretch the time between pumpouts. Besides, they are very pleasant and many on the Rideau have power available.
If you want stop / anchorage recommendations for a specific section, let me know via PM and I'll do some digging in charts, logs & guides.

When we cruise for extended times we make a habit of taking advantage of fresh meats & veg at our stop over location and try to stock up on smoked meats and other meals that don't require or take up much refrigeration. We do not have a freezer aboard but with a little thought and creativity provisioning is never a problem.

That loop is a great cruising area and you will love it

 

[tiz]

Again, thanks all. The re entry decal is a bit of new news. All helpful tips.

—Kevin

 

[Cartouche]

Probably not too early to start planning for a trip we'd like to take.

Basically nyc to erie canal. Through canal with possible finger lakes visit. At buffalo, find best way to st lawrence river.

Then exit st lawrence to get into lake champlain. Down to hudson and back to nyc.

I read that the welland canal is to be avoided when getting from buffalo into st lawrence. Not sure we want to backtrack through Erie Canal to get into lake ontario via oswego canal. Also not sure we want to run the length of lake ontario. Im most fuzzy on thos leg of the trip ( buffalo to st lawrence).

Then, what are best options to get from st lawrence back into champlain?

We are mainship 390, 40ft with 3.7ft draft. Air draft can be 13.5 with mast and bimini down. I think we're around 15.5 mast down and bimini up. Will definitely confirm that.

Ideas? Any blogs of folks that have run this route?

--kevin

I would not suggest running a Mainship 390 down Lake Ontario, prevailing winds are out of the South west and the further east you get the worse it gets. Believe Me. it is a body of water like no other. We had a 390 that we kept on the west end of Kingston and moved it after 1 season to the east end as the Lower and Upper gaps, will keep you weather bound for days. Great for sailing but not a 390 in a beam sea. I suggest to everyone come out at Oswego, hug the Us Side to Clayton and come up to Kingston and the Rideau via the Bateau Chanel, Your 1st mate will thank you for the detour and you will have a great trip.

 

[alormaria]

Again, thanks all. The re entry decal is a bit of new news. All helpful tips.

—Kevin

I remember back in 2000 when we came back in the US from a summer in Canada I apologized to the US Customs man for not having the current decal and he asked if I was going to be making this trip again. I said no, this was a once in a lifetime trip. He said then forget it, you don't need the decal.



Check if it's needed for a single entry or for someone regularly crossing.

 

[tiz]

Ok on decal info and possible usefulness for single entry.

Cartouche - I totally get it re: swells on the bean in a MS390. Will most likely follow that path.

--Kevin

 

[rslifkin]

Beam seas may be a concern, but during the summer there are plenty of calm, settled days on Lake Ontario. We've made plenty of runs down the lake where we never saw anything as big as 1 foot.

However, the Kingston area is generally at the leeward end of the lake and from what I know has some geography that can lead to conditions there being worse than in most other areas. So you may take some weather delays, although it's less of an issue for traveling through that area than being based there in my mind (as you're talking about 1 or 2 delays not 20 in a year).

 

[tiz]

rslifkin -

I agree. We aren't casting any of the route in stone, except avoiding erie and welland canal. So that should give us flexibility on weather concerns especially in easter lake ontario. We're also hoping not to move every day, so a day here and there waiting for a more comfortable passage will be fine.

--Kevin