Urine separating/desiccating toilets

[MurrayM]

So, all disagreement is cultural bias?

Pretty much, yes. If you had been born in a different place with different cultural norms your attitude to such things could be very different.

As a user of this kind of toilet there is no more direct engagement with your crap as there would be with a normal North American toilet, and there's still a sink nearby to wash ones hands afterwards.

...My cultural bias which I'm proud of would absolutely never let me go to the litter box method you use...

That's pretty limiting. Let's say you want to explore the South Pacific islands. You'll be stuck going from resort to resort for your shore experiences while I would have no problem using whatever the locals call a bathroom, and if invited aboard local craft wouldn't insult them by turning my nose up at what they consider normal.

 

[BandB]

Pretty much, yes. If you had been born in a different place with different cultural norms your attitude to such things could be very different.

As a user of this kind of toilet there is no more direct engagement with your crap as there would be with a normal North American toilet, and there's still a sink nearby to wash ones hands afterwards.



That's pretty limiting. Let's say you want to explore the South Pacific islands. You'll be stuck going from resort to resort for your shore experiences while I would have no problem using whatever the locals call a bathroom, and if invited aboard local craft wouldn't insult them by turning my nose up at what they consider normal.

You're fixing a problem we don't have. Our toilets work fine as they are. As to the South Pacific Islands, I would hope to explore them on a boat equipped with working systems as well. I have zero desire to go roughing it. No desire to spend the nights out in the woods with water falling on me all night. I also don't consider resorts as being stuck, although we always choose staying on the boat vs. in the resort hotel.

Again, our toilets work fine so we have no need to explore an alternative system.

You're right that we are products of time and place. Were we in the 8th century, we would be doing things quite differently. I like the progress made since then.

 

[MurrayM]

Speaking of cultural norms, BandB, if you had been born in India;

Eating and the right hand rule

Eating can be a quite sensitive point. It is often done with the fingers, and requires a bit of practice to get it right. Rule one is eat with your right hand only. In India, as all across Asia, the left hand is for wiping your bottom, cleaning your feet and other unsavory functions (you also put on and take off your shoes with the left hand), while the right hand is for eating, shaking hands and so on. (makes sense for Hygiene!)

Quite how rigid individuals are about this rule tends to vary, with Brahmins and Southerners being the strictest. While you can hold a cup or utensil with your left hand, and can usually get away with using it to help you tear your chapatti, you should not eat, pass food or wipe your mouth with your left hand.

In general do not pass anything to anyone with your left hand, or point at anyone either. In general you should accept things with your right hand. Which is also a social norm in Ananda Marga. To give and receive with right hand while touching the elbow of the right arm with the left hand.

The other rule to be aware of when eating or drinking is that your lips should not touch other people's food. Don't for example take a bite out of a chapatti and pass it on. When drinking out of a cup or bottle to be shared with others, don't let it touch your lips, but rather pour it directly into your mouth.

Cultural Hints and Etiquette

 

[MurrayM]

We are of different worlds then and probably won't meet in the wilderness, which I prefer.

 

[dhays]

I like both the wilderness and a nice resort. However, I don't like mosquitoes. They have done more to keep me out of the mountains in my later years than anything else. Of course, I also get weary of crowds of people which has kept me away from many resorts.

Having said that, I would love to share some time with Murray's in the wilds or a resort with BandB.

 

[MurrayM]

I like both the wilderness and a nice resort. However, I don't like mosquitoes. They have done more to keep me out of the mountains in my later years than anything else. Of course, I also get weary of crowds of people which has kept me away from many resorts.

Having said that, I would love to share some time with Murray's in the wilds or a resort with BandB.

Yup, the Truth is usually in the middle

 

[Sea Q]

In BC you only have to move to mid channel and dispose of waste on a falling tide. I would have to boat about 90 nautical miles from Kitimat to be 3 miles offshore. So, if one was to follow the rules explicitly (anybody here ever take a whiz over the side at anchor?) then the urine would be kept in a closed container until the next time we moved to a new anchorage.[/QUOTE]

That dump zone in BC is used by every cruise ship going up and down the coast. They only have a certain amount of time to empty the tanks and the amount they dump all on one area huge

 

[MurrayM]

That dump zone in BC is used by every cruise ship going up and down the coast. They only have a certain amount of time to empty the tanks and the amount they dump all on one area huge

Yuck.

 

[CaptTom]

In BC you only have to move to mid channel and dispose of waste on a falling tide. I would have to boat about 90 nautical miles from Kitimat to be 3 miles offshore. So, if one was to follow the rules explicitly (anybody here ever take a whiz over the side at anchor?) then the urine would be kept in a closed container until the next time we moved to a new anchorage.

That sounds reasonable. My understanding of US rules is that you have to be 3NM offshore to release ANY untreated human waste that's been contained in any way. Taking a whiz over the side doesn't count, but doing so into a bottle and then dumping it over would be a violation inside 3NM, if I understand correctly. This is why I asked about emptying the urine collector.

 

[HeadMistress]

Greetings,
Ms. HM. You appear to be having a bit of a comprehension problem WRT our "septic" service/maintenance regime. The "parts" of our system I referred to have been the ONLY items that needed addressing in the last 12 years so by inference and satisfactory performance, the REST of the system is being serviced properly. I have had ONE issue with a shoreside pumpout which was quickly and easily addressed (mud dauber clogging vent).

I am fully aware of the causes and management of mineral/sludge buildup in pumps, maceraters and hoses well as the holding tank and EVERY sea cock is easily operable and accessible.

I'm proud of you...you're in the top 10%--or maybe even just 5%--of owners. But my comments aren't just for you. There are typically more lurkers than posters on just about every discussion forum about every topic on the net, and quite a few "newbies" among both groups. So any time I can use a response as a springboard to provide useful information to everyone who might read it and profit from it, I do. Always have, always will. As many years as I've been here, I'm surprised you hadn't figured that out.

 

[catalinajack]

Just add yeast and make some Budweiser

Truer thoughts never expressed!

 

[MurrayM]

We lived with a composting toilet for 5 years or so , and most of the negativity seem to come from folks that never have even seen one.

The units use a tiny fan that speeds the drying , so the waste material is basically dry and when the new deposit is made,, the mixing with a turn crank (like flushing a mechanical boat toilet) dries the deposit rapidly so,, no smell.

I guess if you stuck your nose IN the outside vent there might be an aroma for a while , never tried.

The only and big hassle of a composting toilet is the liquid tank that must be emptied a couple of times a week.

For an almost forever maint. free toilet setup the RV toilets are the answer , IF the toilet can be over the holding tank.

1/10 to 1 /20 the pump outs required and an almost limitless component life.

Hi FF, thanks for chiming in.

Where did you terminate your vent hose, what kind of vent cap did you use, and were downdrafts overpowering the fan ever a problem?

 

[bilge53]

72 posts on how to flush and a lesson on culture. Amazing.

 

[MurrayM]

72 posts on how to flush and a lesson on culture. Amazing.

What kind of anchor do you have?

 

[FF]

"Where did you terminate your vent hose, what kind of vent cap did you use, and were downdrafts overpowering the fan ever a problem?"

The vent is 1 1/2 with a TINY fan.

PVC was used for he exhaust which was turned down with a 90 after it came thru the cabin side.

No need for a vent cap.

IF the head is well above the WL , it would be simple to lead the liquid overboard , and not bother with collecting it.

A 2 inch by 1/2 inch reducer would work fine.

KISS

 

[HeadMistress]

IF the head is well above the WL , it would be simple to lead the liquid overboard , and not bother with collecting it.

As long as you don't get caught doing it...'cuz that would be as illegal as flushing a toilet directly overboard. Marine sanitation laws don't only apply to solid waste, but to all "human body waste" including urine...which btw, has been proven NOT be sterile after all.

 

[MurrayM]

"Where did you terminate your vent hose, what kind of vent cap did you use, and were downdrafts overpowering the fan ever a problem?"

The vent is 1 1/2 with a TINY fan.

PVC was used for he exhaust which was turned down with a 90 after it came thru the cabin side.

No need for a vent cap.

IF the head is well above the WL , it would be simple to lead the liquid overboard , and not bother with collecting it.

A 2 inch by 1/2 inch reducer would work fine.

KISS

Hey, thanks for that FF!

I found some small IP68 rated 12 volt fans that might fit the bill. Wasn't too sure they would move enough air, but your experience has given me the confidence to give it a whirl.

 

[MurrayM]

IF the head is well above the WL , it would be simple to lead the liquid overboard , and not bother with collecting it.

As long as you don't get caught doing it...'cuz that would be as illegal as flushing a toilet directly overboard. Marine sanitation laws don't only apply to solid waste, but to all "human body waste" including urine...which btw, has been proven NOT be sterile after all.

Ahem...this being Canada, where many things are different, there is no reference to "all human body waste" in the regulations.

Here's the relevant Canadian regulations:

Authorized discharge

96 (1) For the purposes of section 95, sewage may be discharged if

(a) in the case of a vessel in an area other than a designated sewage area, the discharge is passed through a marine sanitation device and the effluent has a fecal coliform count that is equal to or less than 250/100 mL;

(b) in the case of a vessel in a designated sewage area, the discharge is passed through a marine sanitation device and the effluent has a fecal coliform count that is equal to or less than 14/100 mL;

(this section edited out because it's for vessels over 400 gross tonnage and certified to carry more than 15 persons)

(e) in the case of a vessel that is in Section I waters or Section II waters but not in the inland waters of Canada or a designated sewage area, and that is of less than 400 gross tonnage and is not certified to carry more than 15 persons,

(i) the sewage is comminuted and disinfected using a marine sanitation device and the discharge is made at a distance of at least 1 nautical mile from shore,

(ii) the discharge is made at a distance of at least 3 nautical miles from shore while the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed, or

(iii) if it is not feasible to meet the requirements of subparagraph (ii) because the vessel is located in waters that are less than 6 nautical miles from shore to shore, the discharge is made while the vessel is en route at a speed of at least 4 knots or, if the discharge is not feasible at that speed, the discharge is made

(A) during an ebb tide, while the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest waters that are located the farthest from shore, or

(B) while the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest and fastest moving waters that are located the farthest from shore.

(2) In addition to the circumstances set out in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) and subparagraphs (1)(c)(ii), (d)(ii) and (e)(i), the sewage may be discharged only if it does not contain any visible solids and the discharge does not cause

(a) a film or sheen to develop on the water;

(b) a discoloration of the water or its shorelines; or

(c) sewage sludge or an emulsion to be deposited beneath the surface of the water or on its shorelines.

(3) In addition to the circumstances set out in subparagraphs (1)(c)(i), (d)(i) and (e)(ii) and (iii), the sewage may be discharged only if the discharge does not cause visible solids to be deposited on the shoreline.

(4) Subparagraph (1)(e)(iii) does not apply if a reception facility that can receive the sewage in an environmentally safe manner is available to receive it.

Can be found in Subdivision 5: Vessel Pollution and Dangerous Chemicals Regulations

 

[dhays]

Ahem...this being Canada, where many things are different, there is no reference to "all human body waste" in the regulations.

Here's the relevant Canadian regulations:

Can be found in Subdivision 5: Vessel Pollution and Dangerous Chemicals Regulations

I must admit that it took me a while last summer to come to terms with the rules in BC. For so many years now in Puget Sound I have been using pump-outs that I kept looking for pump-outs in BC. Couldn't find them. It was a bit uncomfortable at first discharging overboard.

 

[MurrayM]

I must admit that it took me a while last summer to come to terms with the rules in BC. For so many years now in Puget Sound I have been using pump-outs that I kept looking for pump-outs in BC. Couldn't find them. It was a bit uncomfortable at first discharging overboard.

Not so bad if you think about our population being 1/10th yours and the length of our shorelines compared to the lower 48's.

 

[HeadMistress]

96 (1) For the purposes of section 95, sewage may be discharged if

(a) in the case of a vessel in an area other than a designated sewage area, the discharge is passed through a marine sanitation device and...

"Marine sanitation device" refers to a treatment device. Anything you send overboard is raw sewage.

 

[dhays]

96 (1) For the purposes of section 95, sewage may be discharged if

(a) in the case of a vessel in an area other than a designated sewage area, the discharge is passed through a marine sanitation device and...

"Marine sanitation device" refers to a treatment device. Anything you send overboard is raw sewage.

True. I found the Canadian rules to be a bit confusing. One of the things that doesn't help is that what they refer to as a "designated sewage zone" is more akin to our NDZs.

For BC, you have to use a MSD or a holding tank and pump-out. However, the rules allow for direct discharge of raw sewage under certain conditions as spelled out in this section

4. In the event that a pump-out facility is not available, there are conditions under which untreated waste may be discharged:
i. The discharge is made at a distance of at least three nautical miles from shore while the vessel is en route at the fastest possible speed, or
ii. If it is not possible to meet the requirements of sub paragraph (i) because the vessel is located in waters that are less than 6 miles from shore to shore, the discharge is made while the vessel is en route at a speed of at least four knots or, if the discharge is not feasible at that speed, the discharge is made:
a. During an ebb tide, while the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest waters that are located farthest from shore, or
b. While the vessel is en route at the fastest feasible speed and into the deepest and fastest moving waters that are located the farthest from shore

It wasn't until I had a completely full holding tank, 5 adults on board, and not a pump-out to be found anywhere, that I found this section at the end of the rules. I still would be happier to be able to find a working pump-out in BC. My guess is, like in Puget Sound, that slowly the number of pump-outs will increase.

 

[MurrayM]

96 (1) For the purposes of section 95, sewage may be discharged if

(a) in the case of a vessel in an area other than a designated sewage area, the discharge is passed through a marine sanitation device and...

"Marine sanitation device" refers to a treatment device. Anything you send overboard is raw sewage.

True, but we went off on this fun & frolicking tangent over depositing urine directly overboard.

From what I've read so far, the purpose of a marine sanitation device is to kill bacteria. That's poop related.

Urine typically is sterile, and if it isn't, you're going to the Dr to find out why it hurts so much when you pee. Don't know about you, but it's never happened to me, so statistically speaking it's pretty much a moot point.

A urine culture is a test to find germs (such as bacteria) in the urine that can cause an infection. Urine in the bladder is normally sterile. This means it does not contain any bacteria or other organisms (such as fungi). But bacteria can enter the urethra and cause a urinary tract infection (UTI).

Urine Culture

Therefore, I'll pee in the water, because as I pointed out earlier you can't really compare our countries when it comes to humans impacting the environment. California has a higher population than all of Canada and we are spread out over a much larger area with a more complex coastline than the lower 48.

Puget Sound is also different in that water can only get in and out one way, whereas BC sloshes openly both north and south.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. MM. Your webmd report must be fake news regarding the sterility of pee. I refer you to post #76. Urine big trouble now...

 

[BandB]

True, but we went off on this fun & frolicking tangent over depositing urine directly overboard.

From what I've read so far, the purpose of a marine sanitation device is to kill bacteria. That's poop related.

Urine typically is sterile, and if it isn't, you're going to the Dr to find out why it hurts so much when you pee. Don't know about you, but it's never happened to me, so statistically speaking it's pretty much a moot point.

Urine Culture

Therefore, I'll pee in the water, because as I pointed out earlier you can't really compare our countries when it comes to humans impacting the environment. California has a higher population than all of Canada and we are spread out over a much larger area with a more complex coastline than the lower 48.

Puget Sound is also different in that water can only get in and out one way, whereas BC sloshes openly both north and south.

Well, the facts remain that the law you quoted doesn't distinguish and urine is covered by that law as human waste.

Also, the statement that urine is sterile is an urban legend. That statement came about because of urine tests to determine abnormally high bacteria.

Here is an article on the subject:

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/urine-not-sterile-and-neither-rest-you

However, every person has bacteria in their urine. You test negative for bacteria when your count is less than 100,000 colony forming units per milliliter of urine.

Pee over the side all you want or pee in a litter box or in a container and then toss it over the side, but none of that changes the law. There are considerations in that law for those who can't get 3 miles off shore and means for them to dump their waste. I find it interesting that it says "fastest feasible speed". Now that's where there is a wide variation.

 

[AusCan]

Greetings,
Mr. MM. Your webmd report must be fake news regarding the sterility of pee. I refer you to post #76. Urine big trouble now...

Watch out Murray. The law enforcers are closing in on you. Urine samples have been taken and they will be checked for bacteria.

Seriously, I think you know how to look after the water quality better than most. Use a system that you are happy with.

In areas like where you and I do our boating, regulations and laws don't really matter so much as there is no one to enforce them. We appreciate the pristine water quality and do what is right to keep it that way. Laws and regulations are secondary to caring for the environment.

 

[Giggitoni]

...so it's sometimes justified to pee in the pristine water?

 

[O C Diver]

...so it's sometimes justified to pee in the pristine water?

Last time I checked, every animal that lives in the water does it there.

Ted

 

[Giggitoni]

Ted,

I'm with ya'! Couldn't find an emoji with a tongue in its cheek.

 

[MurrayM]

...
In areas like where you and I do our boating, regulations and laws don't really matter so much as there is no one to enforce them. We appreciate the pristine water quality and do what is right to keep it that way. Laws and regulations are secondary to caring for the environment.

Perhaps some people are having difficulty with this because our frames of reference are so different. We rarely share anchorages with anyone and can go days without seeing another boat. If there were boats crowding our anchorages all the time my attitude might be like those who are poo pooing the idea of urine in sea water.

Click here; https://www.google.ca/maps/@53.9525705,-129.0027702,43851m/data=!3m1!1e3 and zoom out so it includes Prince Rupert and Bella Bella with Kitimat in the middle. In that space between Prince Rupert and Bella Bella (on the mainland coast & its islands) there are probably less than 15,000 residents.

Do you really think our boat and what few others there might with urine separating/desiccating toilets (maybe one or two others I'm guessing) will be adversely impacting that environment?

Also, if you clicked on the satellite image you'll note how many mountains sport snowfields and glaciers feeding rivers into the Douglas Channel system. During the fall rainy season there can be so much fresh water flowing out of these valleys that the surface fresh/brackish current will be flowing out as the tide is coming in underneath it.