TAMING The power hog.

[TWedd]

I remember you giving these figures in a previous post and being amazed at your amp hr usage. Please remind me what size your battery bank is and the actual amphrs. used in a 12 hour period. We typically use 225 amphrs. in a 12 hr. overnite, in a cool 60deg environment, to mainly power our 120v 10cu.ft (225 liter) fridge and 120v 5cu.ft. chest freezer. I did discover that our fridge seems to always be on defrost-I can constantly feel heat around the freezer door opening. I attribute this to the defrost timer not playing well with the modified sine wave inverter and being one of the reasons I am switching this year to a pure sine wave inverter. I tried disconnecting the timer, but this played havoc with the air circulation system becoming clogged with frost in just one day.

Thanks, Tator

often the fridge/freezer will have heaters around the door openings to prevent condensation while running. I believe these are independent of the defrost function. they often can be turned off by a switch inside or on the front labeled "energy saver" or something similar. this features controls condensation around the doors on the exterior of the unit. needed in humid enviroments(outside, garage, porch etc...) often not needed inside homes with airconditiong. thee heaters will make it feel warm to the touch.
I would not expect the defrost to warm up the freezer enough to make it warm around the doors.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

This thread really shows the difference in boat size, boating experience, and creature comforts the TF crowd covers.

This is my first cruising boat that has electric refrigeration. I did 10 day cruises with just ice (6 frozen-at-home 1 gallon jugs). I don't remember suffering. If I wanted cold beer, it went over the side for 15 minutes (50 degrees). House battery was a single group 27, which was plenty because the lights were kerosene and the stove was wood (later diesel). Maybe it's the passage of time, but I remember those cruises as some of the best. I can't see where a split-phase 240VAC 25 cubic foot stainless steel chest freezer run off a huge lithium ion battery bank through a pure sine wave inverter powered in part by a huge array of solar panels would improve my cruising experiences. Sounds like a big step backwards. Different strokes.

 

[psneeld]

This thread really shows the difference in boat size, boating experience, and creature comforts the TF crowd covers.

This is my first cruising boat that has electric refrigeration. I did 10 day cruises with just ice (6 frozen-at-home 1 gallon jugs). I don't remember suffering. If I wanted cold beer, it went over the side for 15 minutes (50 degrees). House battery was a single group 27, which was plenty because the lights were kerosene and the stove was wood (later diesel). Maybe it's the passage of time, but I remember those cruises as some of the best. I can't see where a split-phase 240VAC 25 cubic foot stainless steel chest freezer run off a huge lithium ion battery bank through a pure sine wave inverter powered in part by a huge array of solar panels would improve my cruising experiences. Sounds like a big step backwards. Different strokes.

Maybe a completely different type of boater, boat, climate, preferences, etc...etc....could be a big step forward for some cruisers.


Still amuses me why so many on here think what they do closely relates to what other boaters/cruisers should consider.

 

[markbarendt]

I remember you giving these figures in a previous post and being amazed at your amp hr usage. Please remind me what size your battery bank is and the actual amphrs. used in a 12 hour period. We typically use 225 amphrs. in a 12 hr. overnite, in a cool 60deg environment, to mainly power our 120v 10cu.ft (225 liter) fridge and 120v 5cu.ft. chest freezer. I did discover that our fridge seems to always be on defrost-I can constantly feel heat around the freezer door opening. I attribute this to the defrost timer not playing well with the modified sine wave inverter and being one of the reasons I am switching this year to a pure sine wave inverter. I tried disconnecting the timer, but this played havoc with the air circulation system becoming clogged with frost in just one day.

Thanks, Tator

This guy https://www.pysystems.ca/products/power/inverter/ has lots of great info. In one, and I don't remember which, he talked about the differences between the true and modified sine wave inverters and says that it is a huge step up in efficiency. It's also much better for all the other appliances.

 

[markbarendt]

"We don't use the freezer compartment for anything because of the chance of repeated and undetected partial defrosts."

If you put ice cubes in a bowl or plastic bag , they are a simple test to decide if the freezer got above 32F.

Use salted water to make cubes to check a lower melting temperature.

Great idea.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi 60, your boat is an anomaly to most boaters on this forum. Two hundred volt AC is seen on very few boats so your setup has no relevance to most who ply this forum.

So simply use the voltage in your country
Identical post but now with 120v
How easy was that

 

[FF]

"Still amuses me why so many on here think what they do closely relates to what other boaters/cruisers should consider."

As a wild a*s guess I believe about half the board readers do not have a boat (yet?) and might be interested in different systems and methods from what is tossed into a production cookee.

Many folks here have experience with older systems not common on todays boats that did solve lifestyle functions , frequently at low cost , with far less maint.

Refrigeration and toilets/waste systems are 2 examples where big bucks seem spent for less and less.

 

[markbarendt]

This thread really shows the difference in boat size, boating experience, and creature comforts the TF crowd covers.

This is my first cruising boat that has electric refrigeration. I did 10 day cruises with just ice (6 frozen-at-home 1 gallon jugs). I don't remember suffering. If I wanted cold beer, it went over the side for 15 minutes (50 degrees). House battery was a single group 27, which was plenty because the lights were kerosene and the stove was wood (later diesel). Maybe it's the passage of time, but I remember those cruises as some of the best. I can't see where a split-phase 240VAC 25 cubic foot stainless steel chest freezer run off a huge lithium ion battery bank through a pure sine wave inverter powered in part by a huge array of solar panels would improve my cruising experiences. Sounds like a big step backwards. Different strokes.

I grew up camping simply in tents and tent trailers behind a Jeep. Fun stuff, great memories of waking up to frozen water in the dish pan in Death Valley... I was twelve-ish, that was fun through my early twenties.

Grand parents would come along in their Motor Home on occasion. I remember sticking my arms out of the sleeping bag in the morning to light a camp fire (that I prepped the evening before) knowing it was going to be colder than a witches tit at sunrise.

It was quite special to be able to duck into Gramma's RV for pancakes and bacon and ... after they had time to wake up and get a shower.

Age, 'significant others', and, 'changes in our means', tend to change our perspective of what constitutes a step back.

While I can definitely see myself taking the dinghy and doing an overnight with a lunch box, a cuban yoyo, and a tarp: I'm petty sure the Admiral isn't interested in that, nor that I'd want to make that a lifestyle myself.

I enjoy seeing the different takes that people bring here too.

 

[Simi 60]

Refrigeration and toilets/waste systems are 2 examples where big bucks seem spent for less and less.

Its the trawler forum, not caveman forum.

I would have thought anyone who could afford a boat and to BURN fuel to move could afford a couple of hundred bucks for a magical porcelain bowl and a bit more for a cold beer box.

I had electric toilets and a fridge in my boats 30 years ago and back then they actually cost real money.

Electric toilet in 1990 cost about the same as today but average wages have gone up considerably more.

 

[rgano]

Not 100% negative now!

In 2008, killed all the wives' tales and installed a propane/AC under-countertop fridge in my GB42. I powered it underway with a small dedicated inverter; in port on shore power, and at anchor on propane. On a trip to the Keys, I eventually took to leaving it on propane after forgetting to switch to inverter when I got underway one day. Level? Heck, it didn't care. Regulated temp just fine as I had a remote sensor in the box with readout right where I looked at it all the time. Never had to refill the bottles in a month-long trip.

Two bottles were stored in a box on the flying bridge with auto-switchover and with Xintex panel beside the reefer to activate the electric solenoid and monitor the two propane sensors for the alarm. One sensor next to the burner assembly and a second in the engine room directly below - even though all areas around the fridge were sealed. I cut a big vent in the cabin side behind the fridge and installed two brushless 12-volt computer fans there to pull out heat.

Best alteration I even made to the boat in 29 years owning it.

As David Allen Coe sings, if that ain't country, I'll....."

 

[AusCan]

I'd certainly consider a propane fridge if my present 12V system wasn't meeting my needs. But it is.

The 480Ah AGM battery bank, 250W solar panel and MPPT controller keep both my 12V fridge and freezer running indefinitely. The battery bank doesn't drop below 90% unless it is very hot and cloudy, and the fridge is opened a lot. I don't have to plug in at the dock and there is always a cold beer waiting for me when I go to the boat to do some maintenance.

What I like about it is that it's so simple. I don't need to worry about running a generator or plugging in at a dock or refilling propane bottles.

 

[markbarendt]

Not 100% negative now!

In 2008, killed all the wives' tales and installed a propane/AC under-countertop fridge in my GB42. I powered it underway with a small dedicated inverter; in port on shore power, and at anchor on propane. On a trip to the Keys, I eventually took to leaving it on propane after forgetting to switch to inverter when I got underway one day. Level? Heck, it didn't care. Regulated temp just fine as I had a remote sensor in the box with readout right where I looked at it all the time. Never had to refill the bottles in a month-long trip.

Two bottles were stored in a box on the flying bridge with auto-switchover and with Xintex panel beside the reefer to activate the electric solenoid and monitor the two propane sensors for the alarm. One sensor next to the burner assembly and a second in the engine room directly below - even though all areas around the fridge were sealed. I cut a big vent in the cabin side behind the fridge and installed two brushless 12-volt computer fans there to pull out heat.

Best alteration I even made to the boat in 29 years owning it.

As David Allen Coe sings, if that ain't country, I'll....."

So, how did you address the need to contain and drain away any leaks?

What worries me is that in my lifetime I can’t remember a single propane system that hasn’t developed a leak or where some human error hasn’t led to a situation that could have turned really ugly.

 

[markbarendt]

I'd certainly consider a propane fridge if my present 12V system wasn't meeting my needs. But it is.

The 480Ah AGM battery bank, 250W solar panel and MPPT controller keep both my 12V fridge and freezer running indefinitely. The battery bank doesn't drop below 90% unless it is very hot and cloudy, and the fridge is opened a lot. I don't have to plug in at the dock and there is always a cold beer waiting for me when I go to the boat to do some maintenance.

What I like about it is that it's so simple. I don't need to worry about running a generator or plugging in at a dock or refilling propane bottles.

That simplicity is part of the reason we’re moving towards all electric appliances and solar.

Solar takes the 3rd fuel refill issues off my plate. Diesel and gasoline are enough.

 

[Simi 60]

That simplicity is part of the reason we’re moving towards all electric appliances and solar.

Solar takes the 3rd fuel refill issues off my plate. Diesel and gasoline are enough.

Jeebus, how hard is it to get gas refilled?

We live aboard and cruise full time, use gas daily, rarely get back to land and when we do have no car yet.......have never had an issue with running low or getting a refill.
Why is it so hard there?

 

[rgano]

So, how did you address the need to contain and drain away any leaks?

What worries me is that in my lifetime I can’t remember a single propane system that hasn’t developed a leak or where some human error hasn’t led to a situation that could have turned really ugly.

The storage box was off the shelf designed with proper drain and was on FB. The back of the fridge was open to the deck via the louvred vent. Front of fridge sealed off form interior of boat.

 

[rslifkin]

Jeebus, how hard is it to get gas refilled?

We live aboard and cruise full time, use gas daily, rarely get back to land and when we do have no car yet.......have never had an issue with running low or getting a refill.
Why is it so hard there?

It's not necessarily hard to get propane, but it's the idea of one less system to maintain, one less separate fuel source to purchase, etc.

 

[Simi 60]

It's not necessarily hard to get propane, but it's the idea of one less system to maintain, one less separate fuel source to purchase, etc.

Can you describe this maintenance?
Is it more maintenance than I need to do on a genset to generate electricity for the electric stove?

I have had gas in boats for decades, never recall having to do any maintenance, am I missing something?

 

[rslifkin]

Can you describe this maintenance?
Is it more maintenance than I need to do on a genset to generate electricity for the electric stove?

I have had gas in boats for decades, never recall having to do any maintenance, am I missing something?

I'd say propane is a pretty low maintenance system, but just keeping an eye on it to make sure all is good and no parts are in need of attention consumes a few minutes here and there. And like many things, it all depends. If you have a generator either way, you've gotta maintain it regardless of what your stove runs on. But if it's a question of propane or generator (but not both), then it starts to look different.

 

[markbarendt]

The storage box was off the shelf designed with proper drain and was on FB. The back of the fridge was open to the deck via the louvred vent. Front of fridge sealed off form interior of boat.

On the fly bridge or another such outside location, I can see that being workable, inside in the main galley, not so much, but possible.

 

[markbarendt]

It's not necessarily hard to get propane, but it's the idea of one less system to maintain, one less separate fuel source to purchase, etc.

Jeebus, how hard is it to get gas refilled?

We live aboard and cruise full time, use gas daily, rarely get back to land and when we do have no car yet.......have never had an issue with running low or getting a refill.
Why is it so hard there?

As rslifkin suggests it mostly about having one less thing.

My boat is only 40 foot long, half or less of the volume of yours, choices must be made.

Along the same lines we’re installing composting toilets and doing away with all the associated plumbing and tanks and joker valves. More room and simpler life.

 

[catalinajack]

Propane is used in millions of homes with never a leak. I do not understand why boats should be any different.

So, how did you address the need to contain and drain away any leaks?

What worries me is that in my lifetime I can’t remember a single propane system that hasn’t developed a leak or where some human error hasn’t led to a situation that could have turned really ugly.

 

[O C Diver]

Propane is used in millions of homes with never a leak. I do not understand why boats should be any different.

Homes don't move, flex, and most aren't surrounded by salt air slowly corroding the copper plumbing. Most homes have the tanks outside and the regulator is never disturbed from the tank to refill the tank.

Ted

 

[Porgy]

And, when I lived on land my house had a vented crawl space, not a bilge and it wasn’t surrounded by water.

According to CPSC roughly 600 propane explosions in US each year. Still considered rare but a far cry from “never.”

 

[rgano]

And, when I lived on land my house had a vented crawl space, not a bilge and it wasn’t surrounded by water.

According to CPSC roughly 600 propane explosions in US each year. Still considered rare but a far cry from “never.”

There are lots more fires and death related to electricity in boats than propane in boats. Pick your poison.

 

[Porgy]

There are lots more fires and death related to electricity in boats than propane in boats. Pick your poison.

Agreed. And different folks perceive and manage risk differently and perceive and manage their boat systems differently. I like the idea of an induction cooktop, not because I’m scared of propane but because it eliminates a system and a source of energy. However, there are too many pieces that have to be sorted for me to make the move.

In the meantime, I’m ok with my propane stove because I hit the solenoid when I cook and turn it off when I’m not. Away from the boat for more than a day, I shut it off at the tank valve. I check for leaks and check the sensors. I don’t see operating a fridge similarly. My own perception of risk doesn’t like ammonia, hydrogen and an open flame inside the boat or propane flowing when I’m not there.

My management of systems doesn’t want a fridge in the cockpit or a hole cut in the side of the boat. Nor does it want to be exchanging propane bottles far more often than at present. But that’s just me.

 

[markbarendt]

Propane is used in millions of homes with never a leak. I do not understand why boats should be any different.

A good question.

Homes don't move, flex, and most aren't surrounded by salt air slowly corroding the copper plumbing. Most homes have the tanks outside and the regulator is never disturbed from the tank to refill the tank.

Ted

A good answer.

There are lots more fires and death related to electricity in boats than propane in boats. Pick your poison.

I agree, that fact though, IMO, and in the eyes of many surveyors seem to be generally caused by the lack of code compliance.

All the scary electrical nonsense on 42 when we bought her was, to be generous, let's say, a comedy of rookie amateur mistakes, without any professional supervision.

I found some of the ABYC standards for propane and there are details like this,

2. Never use solutions containing ammonia.
Ammonia, present in some soaps and detergents attacks
brass fittings. Undetectable at first, in a matter of months
these fittings may develop cracks and leaks.

I can see the potential here for a helpful grandchild helping grampa clean the boat.

Agreed. And different folks perceive and manage risk differently and perceive and manage their boat systems differently. I like the idea of an induction cooktop, not because I’m scared of propane but because it eliminates a system and a source of energy. However, there are too many pieces that have to be sorted for me to make the move.

In the meantime, I’m ok with my propane stove because I hit the solenoid when I cook and turn it off when I’m not. Away from the boat for more than a day, I shut it off at the tank valve. I check for leaks and check the sensors. I don’t see operating a fridge similarly. My own perception of risk doesn’t like ammonia, hydrogen and an open flame inside the boat or propane flowing when I’m not there.

My management of systems doesn’t want a fridge in the cockpit or a hole cut in the side of the boat. Nor does it want to be exchanging propane bottles far more often than at present. But that’s just me.

Porgy's thoughts are a decent summation of my thoughts.

In my own experience I've had various scares with propane, one little one came 2 months ago at a professionally made crimp on supply line on my RV just started leaking out of the blue, it seems probable because of age and the leak was temperature dependent so came and went. Because it was intermittent and small it took a couple days just to figure out it was real and several weeks to figure out where the leak was coming from.

That kind of problem doesn't build trust very well.

 

[Kevin.Bridgen]

Free-standing unit

I wonder if there is a free-standing unit available that could be used on the upper deck in the open air with a fitting that connects directly to a propane tank.

In open air, on the upper deck of a boat, it shouldn't be any more hazardous than a BBQ.

 

[Coalman]

Spot on Peggy.

Fwiw...the fridges on my boats were all dual voltage. I relied on 12v away from the dock. I learned early on to turn OFF the fridge last thing before turning in for the night when I knew it wouldn't be opened again before morning. They were well enough insulated that even the ice cream in the freezer didn't thaw.

Another "trick" I learned when we had guests aboard was to keep beer, soft drinks and anything else that required opening the fridge door frequently in a cooler in the cockpit, reserving the fridge for the food needed at meal time.
Those two li'l "tricks" significantly reduced the fridge amp hour consumption on my boats and prob'ly will for any of you.

--Peggie

I agree with Peggy, some slight modifications to fridge use makes more sense to me than the risks associated with gas fridge. IMO

 

[Sangamo]

propane refrigerator

I'm with Group9 on the safety thing. Same reason I prefer diesel engines over gas.

I concure, 40 years of crusing on sailboats, I had, once, propane refrig and stove in the past, convenient but the downside dose'nt make sense. Diesel power, not gas thank you very much.

 

[catalinajack]

Ted, as usual, you educate without being a wise guy. Thank you.

Homes don't move, flex, and most aren't surrounded by salt air slowly corroding the copper plumbing. Most homes have the tanks outside and the regulator is never disturbed from the tank to refill the tank.

Ted