Trawler or Sailing Catamaran

[NanShan]

hi everybody

we are a cruising couple, currently owners of a small Beneteau Swift Trawler 30, based in Italy.
still working hard, so typical use of the boat is weekends (all) plus 2 off-season cruises per year of 7/10 days plus 1 in-season (august) cruise per year of 15/20 days.

we have good experience in coastal cruising, with about 15.000 Nm and hundreds night at anchor. in the past (20 years ago) I used to charter lots of monohull sailboats for two weeks cruise in the Greek Islands
we are still "young" and (so far) athletics and in good health.
no kids, no chihuahuas, no parrots...

we are at the point of start looking for our next life as full time cruisers. our target is cruising for 3/4 years the whole Med and then exit the Med.
Maybe a jump to Canary Islands, followed by an extended trip with Norway as final destination.

it's not our intention to open a new "next liveaboard thread" considering that there are already many of them, all interesting.

the debate is: Trawler or Sailing Catamaran
we are oriented to a boat of 40/45 foot
we already made our consideration between what can offer both the solutions, analyzing plus and minus...

they shall be capable boats, not interested in the ocean crossing, let's say that we would limit our max passage based on the time window of 5 days (weather forecast sufficient consistency)
just to give an exmple of type of boat we "like", at the moment we are looking to the N41 and the Leopard 42

we would like to hear from the TF community any comment or suggestion.
I read several posts of people going from sailing cat to trawlers...

 

[mvweebles]

Good blog post from a couple who circumnavigate in a sail cat, did lengthy coastal passages in a sail mono, then switched to a GB42 for cruising the Caribbean. They give pluses and minuses of each.

https://www.bumfuzzle.com/trawler-vs-sail/

Peter

 

[NanShan]

mvweebles thanks for the link, I will read it soon!

 

[FF]

I has a 45 ft try as a cruiser back in the 60's.It was grand in the Carib.

The multihull down side, if to function well it must be very light which limits the load one can carry.
Light construction is far more complex than heavy so more expensive..

The huge surface area of 2 or 3 hulls is hard to insulate so northern winters are always a big fuel burn .

Slips for 20+ ft wide are never easy to find and may cost double .

 

[ScottC]

Nice plans!

At risk of stating the obvious, a catamaran will significantly reduce your marina options and increase generally already expensive Mediterranean marina costs. Maybe you like anchoring out to the extent that this would be a non-issue, however?

Catamaran, will most likely limit or entirely eliminate any inland route options to the North Sea or Baltic.

 

[Keysdisease]

Many of us Trawler types transitioned from Sail. It's a very different type of cruising in any Sailboat than in a Trawler or any Powerboat for that matter.

The choice to Sail needs to be based on a serious interest in Sailing in order to be successful, it's the same skill set as operating a Powerboat PLUS all the additional skills needed to sail in addition to an entire new language.

Not a jump to take lightly unless you have "Sail" in your blood

$0.02

 

[DavidM]

I have done both- a sailing catamaran and a trawler. Basically if you like sailing and some of the negatives that FF notes above don't bother you, then go with the sailing catamaran. If the wind is right.....

But if sailing doesn't light your fire or the docking and other negatives are significant to you then go with the trawler.

You have noted two excellent choices BTW.

David

 

[NanShan]

situation is that I love sailing, I have been sailing a lot in youth, but in the last 25 years I only had motorboats.... somehow I miss it... on the other hand my wife has never sailed...

in any case, for sure sailing is not something that we have in our bloods, so I got your "alarms"

mooring: ideally it should not be a problem considering that our will is to anchor as much as possible. it's also true that there are a lot of areas in which it is not possible to find a safe spot in case of bad weather... so realistically we could finally have to find a slip much more time than expected


I read article suggested by mvweebles and this is the writer summary for the correct choice:
COST OCEANS >600 MILES ISLAND HOPPING
under $80k Monohull Monohull
$80-200k Monohull Trawler
over $200k Catamaran Trawler/Catamaran

considering that my condition is >$200k and Island Hopping... it doesn't help me

 

[Hippocampus]

Would note a different experience. In a seaway find a mono more comfortable. There’s two types of motion. Low frequency and high. Monos are low much like ships. Multis are high. The motion on a cat is a bit less predictable. I’ve ocean raced both and have thousands of miles of ocean passage experience. So multis tend to hobbyhorse more and be more jerky when in the snot. So would disagree with tha blog. Many folks prefer the motion of a mono to a multi on passage.
Would further note there’s a big difference between what a sailboat is capable of and what vmg you actually sail it at. Once you get beyond a passage of about a week you generally find things even out. Although cats are theoretically faster due to issues of ride pointing, leeway need to pay attention the days work tend to converge to the speed advantage is lost.
Just like in power there’s a huge difference in multis optimized for ocean passage and those for coastal work. Thin wave piercing hulls, high bridge decks starting near the mast, daggerboards or substantial appendages to improve pointing, no wedding cake houses. I would jump on a Rapido 60 tomorrow and circumnavigate but would have reluctance to sail a cat designed for the Caribbean charter trade out of sight of land. The mono that blog refers to is a particularly out of date with an archaic full keel design which has no similarity with any mono designed for ocean work in the last several decades.
There are good boats, great boats and not so much in every type of vessel. Dogma resists reality. Would discount the dogma that person presented.

 

[DDW]

I would discount most anything the bumfuzzles say. A sailing catamaran of the type you are considering makes a pretty good trawler (without the same range). In fact many of them are operated essentially as trawlers since they sail poorly. But you have the option to sail when conditions are ideal. Even when conditions are ideal, most sailing cats aren't faster than modern monohulls, as can easily be shown in the ARC results for the last 20 years.

Though much is made of the lack of heel in a sailing cat, that does not mean there isn't motion. As said above the motion is quick and jerky. In a seaway (expect perhaps rolling dead down wind) I'll take a monohull. Of course trawlers, unless stabilized, have quite a lot of motion in a seaway as well.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Powercat, since you will be motorsailing much of the time anyway. Why not get rid of the expensive high maintenance sail rig?

 

[NanShan]

comparing a sailing Leopard 40 (new model will be presented next year Leopard 42) with a Leopard 43 powercat, the price difference is remarkable.
almost full optional $500/550k for the sailing one, you have to add $200/250k for the motor version... I would maintains sails rig for decades

huge engines (yanmar 2x320HP) makes sense if you are willing to cruise at 18+ kts. not my case
cruising the whole time at 7/8 kts it's also not healthy for such a beast of engines...
and their maintenance will be multiple of the small 30 HP of the sailing cat

 

[socalrider]

I never understood why the “power cats” are so massively overpowered. Seems like you should be able to sell the sailing versions (which as mentioned sail like crap in many cases) without a rig at a discount.

One other thing: are you tall? I found many cats that I looked at unlivable and I’m only 6’2”. Cats need high bridge deck clearance and low windage to sail to windward, which means that most performance cats have sub 6’ headroom. Less of a problem for the charter cats, but they don’t sail very well.

 

[NanShan]

would manufacturer be proposing a sailing cat with no sail rig (so at lower price) and maybe a minimum upgrade in the engines (let's say 2x45HP instead of 2x30HP) I will buy it immediately...

no problem with headroom for me... I'm just 5'8" and my wife 5'4"... two giants...
leopard 42 we are looking for has headroom of 6,7" in the saloon and 6'4" in the cabins

 

[FF]

I have found ocean crossing cruising that speed is seldom a factor. The boat will probably have a small crew ,that is delighted the self steering gear (aries) gets them off the helm 99% of the passage.

Sure a crack crew, helmsman changed frequently, might point higher and an hour a day faster is gold to a racing crew , but most cruisers might toss the captain over board hearing the command 'On Hike" .

That a modern sail boat can point higher with deep keels or center boards is very nice , but a sailing cruiser might have a bigger interest in how the boat hoves too or lies ahull as its a far easier way to exist if the wind gets to 50K which may be a delight for the offshore racing folks but is survival or very raw weather for most cruising folks.

Multiple sail changes are unfun to most cruisers so the roller window shade style head sail means the iron topsail will be used instead of ghosting in a 3K breeze.

A well built trawler would now be a great choice however many would need modification , and certainly some help with huge PH windows , and perhaps with the structure holding the PH in place.

There will always be a need for more hand holds (power or sail) as bouncing from wall to wall is not very healthy..

 

[cardude01]

I sometimes think about moving up from my little motorsailer to a nice size sailing cat. However, I really like the option of being able to sit inside the pilot house and turn on the AC when it’s too hot out. Plus, I’m not really a sailor, so I’m not thrilled about the idea maintaining a tall, expensive rig like the big sailing cats have.

A power catamaran sounds like a more logical step up (for me), but it’s hard to find one with good engine access, plus they seem super expensive to me.

 

[Woodland Hills]

If it’s new construction, just have them install the size of engines that you want.....

 

[NanShan]

yes, it's a possibility with new build...
need to check real feasibility asking directly to manufacturer...

anyone has already built an "underpowered" power cat?

 

[mcarthur]

I did a little study of powercats since we have one. It covers engine size as well as fuel efficiency. I do need to bring it uptodate, but it may help with what's out there in (mostly production) powercats. With afterthought.

There are some that are outboard powered too, and that gives much greater flexibility in putting in smaller units whether they be petrol or diesel and ease of access (but not at sea!). But at the expense of rear weight, efficiency due to prop size and depth, and for some it's petrol aboard.

Our own is particularly underpowered compared to many - 50', 35,000lbs, and twin 135hp limited to 100hp (2400rpm) so 200hp at most. Still gets us to 13/14 kn at WOT, and perfect for 7-9kn. Straight shaft and centralized weight, but engine access is pretty average (height is well over 6', but skinny hulls and poorly laid out means width can be annoying. Nothing that a reorg can't fix...)

Cost is...well, not the cheapest. But deals come up - keep looking, as there are probably 1 powercat to 500 other boats!

 

[NanShan]

very interesting study, thanks for sharing.

from my perspective, being interested in cruising at 7-8 knots with eventual desired peak to 10 kts, it is not reasonable to pay that much overprice for a power cat.

I compared the Leopards because I went through their price listing recently but I guess that also with other brands there won't be much difference...
even if Leopard would accept to install alternative engines (let's say 2x80hp instead 2x320hp) I have serious doubt that they will be able to cut the price going back to the sailing version cat.
still not able to understand such a high price difference

by the way, for me would me more logical to choose the sailing version and remove the mast/rig... new leopard 42 will be powered with 2x45hp that should have a good power to push the cat probably up to 10kts...

another point that I do not appreciate of the power cat is their GRP forward/bow area. definitely prefer forward "nets" (don't know if the terms is correct...) of sailing cat

 

[mcarthur]

You certainly don't need a powercat for 7-8kn. Along with some disadvantages, there are other upsides too: sit above low water and clean-off and walk around, stable platform (5 degrees not 45 when inevitable wash comes past), often shallower draft allowing access to more places, twin motors (redundancy) and far apart so good for maneuvering, often more internal and deck space, etc. Ie. it's not just about speed and consumption. In fact, at 7-8 kn, most 50' mono/multi are in displacement mode and can (!) have pretty similar consumption figures (hence your trawler vs sailing cat thread.

Remember though that sailing cats don't have the same underwater shape as a power cat for a reason. Large engine carrying being just one of them. You may not care (at 7-8kn), but I'd caution that being able to get out of harms way at (say) 12-15kn on occasion may be worth considering. I'm talking about weather (which isn't anywhere near 100% accurate even within 24hr), currents in some places of 3-4kn, and just generally.

If you are willing to re-power, you should be able to find some much cheaper boats where the main problem could be the engine is EOL (for various reasons). Should make them much cheaper, but they won't be new(ish).

 

[mvweebles]

Leopard would accept to install alternative engines (let's say 2x80hp instead 2x320hp) I have serious doubt that they will be able to cut the price going back to the sailing version cat.
still not able to understand such a high price difference

While I won't attempt to understand the pricing on a new boat, I can observe from having run a friend's 2014 Horizon Power Cat 52 that when you buy the boat, you buy into the design criteria. His boat cruises around 20-kts/36 gph, though he often runs at 9-10 kts and around 8 gph. The hull forms have spray strakes and steps for planing, there is a lot of design work that went into the aft sections for buoyancy for the engines and tanks, his ~500 hp Cummins engines with Vee-Drive are nicely installed with sound-deadening underwater exhaust that must be close to 6-inch diameter fiberglass tubing and very expensive silicon cuff connections. Shafts are almost 3-inches in diameter with large steering gear to match.

My point is there is probably a good $300k-$500k additional costs for machinery, design, and construction. It's not just as simple as installing a pair of 85 hp Beta diesels instead of the very sophisticated Cummins. It's a package deal - when you chose a boat like these (I assume the sailboat versions of PCs are no different), you buy into the relative efficiency of cruising at 18-20 kts aboard a PC. Otherwise, chose a different PC.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Big difference between multis and monos is multis are entirely dependent upon form stability. They achieve greater speed by decreasing wetted surface and thereby parasitic drag. They can present less frontal plane and a more favorable set of diagonals. Given this weight is the enemy. With sailing multihulls in order to achieve performance every measure to take out weight is employed. Fully cored. Carbon pre preg. Carbon rudder, rudder post and mast.
For this reason and safety bridge deck in front of the mast is eliminated. Powercats present a different set of troubles. Fuel weighs. Engines weigh. Everything concerning the running gear has to be beefier which results in more weight. Hulls are less slim. Bridge deck is lower and brought farther forward. On both rudders and running gear are exposed. Unless you’re talking about some usual designs beaching is out of the question. With engines so far apart running on one isn’t really feasible. Rudders are small and you commonly steer with the engines at displacement or lower speeds. At higher speeds you’d just go around in circles. Docking is more difficult not only due to beam and sight lines but due to skating in any kind of wind. When well executed they are marvels. Huge room for LOA. No rolling. Higher cruising speeds. Lower draft. Single level living.
No boat does everything well. All have pluses and minuses. If I was living totally on the hook and never in a slip or on a mooring be shopping for multihulls. Next boat will have a different program than the last. Look at what you want to do then what type of boat you want should become apparent. Maybe a multi fits your program. Maybe not.