TIG welder onboard - pulled the trigger

[DDW]

So much thread drift, I might as well add to it. ?

I'd expect the oficianadoes to have a field day but what's wrong with the attached? To my layman eyes seems to have good penetration, strength and no porosity but I'm certainly not the one to pass judgement. Seems much easier and less gear than TIG/MIG especially away from civilisation.

https://youtu.be/XaMliH_F2LM

As an emergency repair, or something for your camper, maybe. If you looked closely as the quality of the weld (especially inside that tube) the difference with a good back purged TIG weld will be obvious. Also, after a couple of years around salt water there is very likely to be significant rust near the weld, as a lot of it was changed from austenitic to martensitic. Less gear? Still need the power supply and cables, don't need a gas bottle so there is that. With TIG you'd have to do a LOT less finishing.

Both stick and MIG are additive processes, to get penetration you have to put on a lot of metal and then grind it off again. TIG weld a tight fitting joint and you fuse the metal with little or no filler needed.

You are going to have to look very, very hard to find anyone doing SS welding for yachts, using anything but TIG. There's a reason for that.

 

[GoneDiving]

As an emergency repair, or something for your camper, maybe.....

Thanks for that

 

[Caballero II]

For those that aren’t already experienced welders, a TIG machine isn’t where you want to start unless you are willing to spend a lot of time to learn and practice. I have a pretty complete metal shop (and wood) and recently sold my Miller TIG welder because I didn’t use it enough to get the weld quality that I want. I would rather pay for the occasional TIG job to be done professionally and perfectly rather than settle for the quality and appearance I can turn out with my rusty skills.

Simi has different situation since apparently the skilled work is hard to come by in his area. Sounds like he has the ability and experience so that won’t be an issue for him.

So, what are you actually doing with the TIG? What projects? I don't have any projects that couldn't be solved without a welder, and if I needed one, I would probably hire that out. Are you building a bimini frame, a dry stack exhaust, dinghy davits, booms for flopper stoppers or paravanes? I'd love to hear. Hell, I just bought a canvas snap installer because my canvas snaps break/screw-up all the time. I'm thinking I'm getting high tech.

 

[BruceK]

So much thread drift, I might as well add to it. ?

I'd expect the aficionados to have a field day but what's wrong with the attached? To my layman eyes seems to have good penetration, strength and no porosity..

Gotta love good penetration. My welding/brazing efforts mainly involve welding the rod to the job.

 

[guy with a boat]

So, what are you actually doing with the TIG? What projects? I don't have any projects that couldn't be solved without a welder, and if I needed one, I would probably hire that out. Are you building a bimini frame, a dry stack exhaust, dinghy davits, booms for flopper stoppers or paravanes? I'd love to hear. Hell, I just bought a canvas snap installer because my canvas snaps break/screw-up all the time. I'm thinking I'm getting high tech.

Maybe I wasn’t clear, but the shop I referred to is on land. I have lots of tools on the boat, but no welder. My point was just that I have quite a few years of experience with welders and I chose to sell the TIG that I had because it required more setup and practice than I was willing to maintain over time.
I still have a MIG at the shop and can turn out good quality work with it when the need arises. Boat projects are only part of what I do in my shop. Its basically an over sized and over equipped version of what lots of gearheads and DIY guys have in their garages.

 

[gc9773]

Delivered as promised, it is a "Piranha III" sharpener, a bit cheaper now at around $1,400....

https://store.cyberweld.com/digrpiiiitug.html

There is a "Piranha II" available at around $800...

 

[gc9773]

Hope I didn't offend one here, and if you are considering adding a welding package to your trawler, I would make sure to have the power available to run it, which is another issue entirely. For 200 amps, which is the range of most smaller welders, you'll need somewhere around 30 amperes at 240 volts unless you just go with gas...

Hobart makes a really nice multi-process welder which will do stick, MIG, and TIG for around $1,300.

https://www.hobartwelders.com/equipment/welders/multiprocess/multi-handler-200-m30242

And what's the first thing I did this morning setting up for TIG? Broke my #5 cup, go figure!

 

[DDW]

So, what are you actually doing with the TIG? What projects? I don't have any projects that couldn't be solved without a welder, and if I needed one, I would probably hire that out. Are you building a bimini frame, a dry stack exhaust, dinghy davits, booms for flopper stoppers or paravanes? I'd love to hear. Hell, I just bought a canvas snap installer because my canvas snaps break/screw-up all the time. I'm thinking I'm getting high tech.

Here is one of my more ambitious SS projects for the boat. I did not like the davits supplied by the builder for my AT34, so made my own. But as you can see, this isn't the sort of thing you do on the finger pier at the marina. That is why I said way upthread that the welder is the smallest part of the problem, you need a fair amount of other metalworking equipment to do anything serious. If I had a big boat with a big engine room (65'+) I might have a small welder and some small machine tools on board for repair work or small parts fab. Otherwise better finding someone near the marina to do it, or take it home to the shop.

 

[kthoennes]

To be honest, the best "repair" would be just to order a new part...

Yes, but that entire bow rail is one single, continuous welded piece, including the stanchions welded to the deck plates. Actually it's not accurate to call it a bow rail, it wraps about three quarters of the boat, all welded. One. Giant. Piece. Picture below. See what I mean? Mainship went nuts with aluminum pipe, including the radar arch. If you removed it and flattened it out, just the "bow" rail would be about 60 feet long. This entire discussion has inspired me to buy a MIG welder that does aluminum and spend the winter practicing welding aluminum pipe to flat plate. For quite a while I've also wanted to add a dingy derrick that extends off the aft deck roof, so I'll finally fabricate that too. I've seen others add a derrick to our model boat, although I just want to lift the inflatable dinghy out of the water, not store it on the roof like at least one other Mainship 37 I've seen. Way too much windage already. I can spend the winter wasting large amounts of Schedule 80 Al pipe and plate and wire and Argon to practice. Maybe by April my beads won't be too hideous.

Fine, if I can't find a welder willing to do a little bow rail job no matter how much I'm willing to pay, fine, I'll do it myself, just like the canvas work and everything else. Fine.

 

[DDW]

If doing aluminum, I'd encourage you to look at TIG instead of MIG. In my opinion (and experience) it takes more skill and practice to get an acceptable weld with MIG on aluminum than a modern inverter TIG. This is especially true of thinner material (< 1/8").

 

[sbman]

And everyone else here will have trouble, if they follow your "advice"....

And using a bench grinder to sharpen your electrode does not necessarily facilitate ease of TIG welding. We have a $2,000 diamond tipped machine to do that, and it is still something I do not look forward to...

Me thinks someone here is selling swill...

If you had trouble with arc welding, I question your TIG abilities...

I started on welding with many thousands of hours of soldering experience in both plumbing and electrical usage, including very fine, very precise soldering under microscopes. With this as a background I found TIG to be very intuitive and easy to do. Stick was/is MUCH harder for me, and MIG really annoying as you have to work with the speed of the machine. Being able to control heat at the same time as the feed rate and filler all on your own terms makes TIG very controllable. An experienced welder over your shoulder for a few sessions can really move a beginner along quickly.

Fine, if I can't find a welder willing to do a little bow rail job no matter how much I'm willing to pay, fine, I'll do it myself, just like the canvas work and everything else. Fine.

I would go with TIG for that job. Start with laying beads on flat plate and then try tubes, tubes to plates, eventually working up to parts the same size as your project, (that's critical). After you do well with your practice work you'll be able to put a welding blanket under the base and duplicate your practice work.

You'll want to use at least a chemical passivation on it after you are done. Read up on whatever process you want to learn (MIG/TIG) and give it a go on some scrap metal. Then get someone that knows what they are doing to help you, you'll learn a lot after you've struggled a bit first.

 

[gc9773]

Yes, but that entire bow rail is one single, continuous welded piece, including the stanchions welded to the deck plates. Actually it's not accurate to call it a bow rail, it wraps about three quarters of the boat, all welded. One. Giant. Piece. Picture below. See what I mean? Mainship went nuts with aluminum pipe, including the radar arch. If you removed it and flattened it out, just the "bow" rail would be about 60 feet long. This entire discussion has inspired me to buy a MIG welder that does aluminum and spend the winter practicing welding aluminum pipe to flat plate. For quite a while I've also wanted to add a dingy derrick that extends off the aft deck roof, so I'll finally fabricate that too. I've seen others add a derrick to our model boat, although I just want to lift the inflatable dinghy out of the water, not store it on the roof like at least one other Mainship 37 I've seen. Way too much windage already. I can spend the winter wasting large amounts of Schedule 80 Al pipe and plate and wire and Argon to practice. Maybe by April my beads won't be too hideous.

Fine, if I can't find a welder willing to do a little bow rail job no matter how much I'm willing to pay, fine, I'll do it myself, just like the canvas work and everything else. Fine.

Ok, got it, in your case, getting it welded would be the easiest way to go, and for aluminum, particularly an area where aesthetics would apply, TIG would be the best route and offer the strongest weld

And that is how is started, in high school with gas and stick, and then bought MIG and went to gas before starting certification.

They have multi-process machines which handle stick, MIG, and TIG. I would recommend getting the largest you can run if you will be doing aluminum, it requires more amperage than steel for the same material thickness as it dissipates heat so efficiently...

 

[gc9773]

I guess my suggestion is that if you do not have access to a well stocked shop, like some of the ones I have seen photos of here, then getting a TIG as your ONLY welder aboard a trawler does not make much sense to me. Not to mention some of the other issues. Imagine killing some of your onboard electronics or disaffecting your compass.. I have travelled in some of those parts of the ocean in Asia and similar, getting steel worked on should be easy to find, aluminum is another story.

What is the availability of services for folks in this community for welding and similar? I would imagine it might be expensive, but given the cost of owning a trawler, should be a very small fraction of the cost of ownership.

If you can gas weld really well, you could take care of steel, aluminum, etc with one welder requiring ZERO electricity. But welding aluminum with gas is tough, as related to me by the pros, I have never tried it. Maybe I will sometime, I have an oxy/acetylene setup.

If you are on the US coast, getting parts, cups, electrodes, etc is a relatively simple affair. And now I am probably in this over my head....

 

[kthoennes]

Thanks very much for any and all advice. There are at least two really good welding shops here in town but the boat is 90 minutes away. I've had both shops do work for me in the past and they do excellent work, but they're just too busy, nobody wants to travel (I offered to pay them very well). Even the marina service department in Yankton can't find a welder who wants to tackle aluminum. They told me there's highly skilled welder at a huge agricultural operation some miles away but he won't travel either, I'd have to truck the boat to him which of course made me burst out laughing. I can just see it now, when the 18-wheeler with a 40 foot boat rumbles past the dairy barn.

I was thinking I'd pry off that deck plate, bring it back to Sioux Falls, have them clean it up, grind off the broken weld, and then weld maybe a two inch stub of pipe at the correct angle that's a hair larger than the railing and then tap a couple allen-wrench set-screws. In other words have them make make a custom aluminum version of the Tinker-Toy stainless fittings that rec boaters use all the time. But then as long as I want to fabricate the dinghy derrick too, and use aluminum pipe to match all the existing Al plumbing (can't mix, galvanic corrosion!!), then I might as well bite the bullet and add yet more machines (and gas bottles) to the shop at home and learn to do it myself. I'm not building the space shuttle, if the welds are a little ugly I'll still sleep at night (well, maybe).

 

[gc9773]

Yes, but that entire bow rail is one single, continuous welded piece, including the stanchions welded to the deck plates. Actually it's not accurate to call it a bow rail, it wraps about three quarters of the boat, all welded. One. Giant. Piece. Picture below. See what I mean? Mainship went nuts with aluminum pipe, including the radar arch. If you removed it and flattened it out, just the "bow" rail would be about 60 feet long. This entire discussion has inspired me to buy a MIG welder that does aluminum and spend the winter practicing welding aluminum pipe to flat plate. For quite a while I've also wanted to add a dingy derrick that extends off the aft deck roof, so I'll finally fabricate that too. I've seen others add a derrick to our model boat, although I just want to lift the inflatable dinghy out of the water, not store it on the roof like at least one other Mainship 37 I've seen. Way too much windage already. I can spend the winter wasting large amounts of Schedule 80 Al pipe and plate and wire and Argon to practice. Maybe by April my beads won't be too hideous.

Fine, if I can't find a welder willing to do a little bow rail job no matter how much I'm willing to pay, fine, I'll do it myself, just like the canvas work and everything else. Fine.

For MIG, you will need a machine which accepts a spool gun, and yes, you will be using Argon. I would stick with the name brands on this one, Lincoln Electric, ESAB, Miller, Hobart.

If you just want to get started, Hobart has a great selection, 190, 210MVP (can be run off 120 for smaller stuff). I've used their stuff for years at home and their machines have never given me any trouble. Parts are widely available and any welding store will carry tips, etc.

A plasma machine will make short work of any cutting and can handle steel, stainless, and aluminum...

 

[gc9773]

I started on welding with many thousands of hours of soldering experience in both plumbing and electrical usage, including very fine, very precise soldering under microscopes. With this as a background I found TIG to be very intuitive and easy to do. Stick was/is MUCH harder for me, and MIG really annoying as you have to work with the speed of the machine. Being able to control heat at the same time as the feed rate and filler all on your own terms makes TIG very controllable. An experienced welder over your shoulder for a few sessions can really move a beginner along quickly.

Then you were doing micro miniature repair as we called it, no wonder you are great at TIG! There is no way I could do that, I had co-workers who did it and I never envied them...

I think where many folks run into problems with stick are with the 6011/6010 electrodes, using whip and pause. I HATED 6011 in my youth, but LOVE 6010 (basically the same thing as 6011) now, go figure, what a little training and practice will do for you...

My main machine at home is MIG w/CO2. CO2 is supposed to give more spatter, but that has not been my experience. And the bottles are easier to carry for me...

 

[gc9773]

Thanks very much for any and all advice. There are at least two really good welding shops here in town but the boat is 90 minutes away. I've had both shops do work for me in the past and they do excellent work, but they're just too busy, nobody wants to travel (I offered to pay them very well). Even the marina service department in Yankton can't find a welder who wants to tackle aluminum. They told me there's highly skilled welder at a huge agricultural operation some miles away but he won't travel either, I'd have to truck the boat to him which of course made me burst out laughing. I can just see it now, when the 18-wheeler with a 40 foot boat rumbles past the dairy barn.

I was thinking I'd pry off that deck plate, bring it back to Sioux Falls, have them clean it up, grind off the broken weld, and then weld maybe a two inch stub of pipe at the correct angle that's a hair larger than the railing and then tap a couple allen-wrench set-screws. In other words have them make make a custom aluminum version of the Tinker-Toy stainless fittings that rec boaters use all the time. But then as long as I want to fabricate the dinghy derrick too, and use aluminum pipe to match all the existing Al plumbing (can't mix, galvanic corrosion!!), then I might as well bite the bullet and add yet more machines (and gas bottles) to the shop at home and learn to do it myself. I'm not building the space shuttle, if the welds are a little ugly I'll still sleep at night (well, maybe).

If the part is mailable, you can send it to me and I will MIG it for you... And given that it will be MIG, no, it might not be as pretty as a TIG weld, but it might work. You can PM me...

 

[Bugaboo]

TIG is not EASY to weld steel. TIG requires significant practice, "a little practice"??? And TIG units are either air cooled or water cooled. Water cooling adds complexity and cost, air cooling reduces duty cycle and/or amperage...

MIG is a HEAVY DEPOSITION process, or can be, but with argon/CO2 (or even CO2) can produce aesthetically pleasing welds with great penetration... Argon/CO2 reduces splatter to nil... I can weld with 6010 electrode with almost ZERO splatter...

For MOST folks here, TIG will be a futile effort... Unless you expect to see your boat on "The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous", and have the money to pay someone who knows what they are doing, TIG is the worst process to have onboard...

"Not that hard on aluminum", you've gotta be kidding me...

"If I was carrying a welding rig on board, without a doubt it would be TIG", I want 2 of whatever you took...

For those here considering their options, try TIG, I suspect you will decide practicality over aesthetics...

Well said i Weld practically everything with MiG by the time you get set up and get in a comfortable position necessity for tig I’ll have the weld done and be on some thing else . comedy comes in many forms this thread has been very comical

 

[Bugaboo]

All this argument isn't helping me figure out how to fix my broken aluminum bow rail.View attachment 123481

If it makes you feel any better that happens quite a bit with aluminum railing you’re not the only one you’ll just have to sleeve it you aren’t going to weld it on the boat A larger tube that’s the old railing will slide into and a new base ,welding old aluminum is not easily done

 

[Simi 60]

Well said i Weld practically everything with MiG by the time you get set up and get in a comfortable position necessity for tig I’ll have the weld done and be on some thing else . comedy comes in many forms this thread has been very comical

All good if you are after the agricultural but strong look and don't get me wrong, that does have its place

But if you want astheticaly pleasing, Tig is the answer.

 

[DDW]

I'll go further - if you are in a hurry, don't care about the quality or appearance of the weld, MIG is your friend.

 

[sbman]

One of the things I like about best TIG is that it's slow. I'm in no hurry, and I'm not an expert, the extra time the process gives is welcome.

 

[kthoennes]

This is getting as bad as an anchor thread. I'm all geared up to go shopping but now I don't know what to buy. Maybe I'll just start with getting a 220v outlet installed in the shop. Or maybe I can run a really long extension cord to the 220v dryer outlet in the laundry room.

 

[sbman]

I'd find a local welding shop, go there and talk with the owner. See if they know of anyone that offers any training or if there is a local club, group, makers lab, artists enclave, etc... that might have people willing to put a stinger in your hands and some practice material.

Welding rig manufacturers often offer free or very cheap hands-on seminars as well mostly to sell their products, but you get an intro to welding as well. I've taken those before, a great way to try a few things to get an idea of what it's all about.

 

[gc9773]

This is getting as bad as an anchor thread. I'm all geared up to go shopping but now I don't know what to buy. Maybe I'll just start with getting a 220v outlet installed in the shop. Or maybe I can run a really long extension cord to the 220v dryer outlet in the laundry room.

You can use your dryer outlet with a appropriate sized extension cord (10 AWG), it is most likely a 30 amp circuit which will be somewhat limiting...

I have a 60 amp circuit for my welder on 240 volts, but I have a large machine with a max of 280 amps, I doubt I will ever need to weld 1/2" steel in my garage, however...

Your best bet, particularly if you have single phase power, and most likely, that is all you have available is to get a 50 or 60 amp circuit run. This will require 6 AWG wire and a 4 prong outlet, get the adapter for your welder, it is only $20 and will convert the 4 prong outlet to a 3, which your welder will likely require...

I could have put the circuit in myself, but I don't go into the mains enough to eliminate the likelyhood of electrocution, so I had it done for $500...

 

[gc9773]

This is getting as bad as an anchor thread. I'm all geared up to go shopping but now I don't know what to buy. Maybe I'll just start with getting a 220v outlet installed in the shop. Or maybe I can run a really long extension cord to the 220v dryer outlet in the laundry room.

See if there is a community college in your area that offers welding classes, this is a GREAT way to learn and get experience with serious equipment so you can decide what equipment to buy.

Since you will be welding aluminum, you WILL need a 200 amp machine, and I would highly suggest going as large as you can.

I got by for years with a max 140 amp machine as all I worked with was steel.

Also, check on bottle availability in your area. I hear some places will not sell the bottles, only lease. I bought all of my bottles, but have an account with AirGas if I need to rent or lease for a small project, particularly for Argon, which I do not keep around. Get the LARGEST bottle you can reasonably carry. CO2 (for steel) is sold by the pound, starting at 20 lbs, which works out to 174 cubic feet of gas as it is stored in a liquid state.

The largest bottle I can reasonably carry is a 150 cubic foot.

 

[Bmarler]

I'd find a local welding shop, go there and talk with the owner. See if they know of anyone that offers any training or if there is a local club, group, makers lab, artists enclave, etc... that might have people willing to put a stinger in your hands and some practice material.

Welding rig manufacturers often offer free or very cheap hands-on seminars as well mostly to sell their products, but you get an intro to welding as well. I've taken those before, a great way to try a few things to get an idea of what it's all about.

many times the local community college will offer classes as well.
but if someone just wants to burn some rod they can stop by my shop, i'll put them to work.

 

[Bmarler]

See if there is a community college in your area that offers welding classes, this is a GREAT way to learn and get experience with serious equipment so you can decide what equipment to buy.

Since you will be welding aluminum, you WILL need a 200 amp machine, and I would highly suggest going as large as you can.

I got by for years with a max 140 amp machine as all I worked with was steel.

Also, check on bottle availability in your area. I hear some places will not sell the bottles, only lease. I bought all of my bottles, but have an account with AirGas if I need to rent or lease for a small project, particularly for Argon, which I do not keep around. Get the LARGEST bottle you can reasonably carry. CO2 (for steel) is sold by the pound, starting at 20 lbs, which works out to 174 cubic feet of gas as it is stored in a liquid state.

The largest bottle I can reasonably carry is a 150 cubic foot.

writing at the same time i see.

 

[gc9773]

This is getting as bad as an anchor thread. I'm all geared up to go shopping but now I don't know what to buy. Maybe I'll just start with getting a 220v outlet installed in the shop. Or maybe I can run a really long extension cord to the 220v dryer outlet in the laundry room.

For whatever run you want (for 220/240), to a shop, whatever, just make sure your voltage drop is less than 3%. I believe the rule is 5%, for some reason 3% sticks out in my mind, that is what I used.... This is to determine the cable size.

Here is a link to the one I use...

https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

 

[gc9773]

writing at the same time i see.

Yes, that appears to be the case! I see we both had the same suggestion!