Sharing Boat Handling Lessons, (Good or Bad idea)?

[Ducatihottie]

I placed this add in Seattle Seattle Craigslist to share the costs of boat lessons. First off, I'm not rich. Secondly, sharing the costs I can afford more training. Please see add below.

Good or bad idea? I assume some of you took lessons with your wife or husband? Also, If you or you know someone willing to train me in the Seattle area, please let me know as well. I'd love to have someone on this forum teach me, (of course I'll pay).

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/7166210719.html

 

[Comodave]

I think it is a bad idea. If you were to go out with a strong personality they will take over the lesson. I would want as much time with the instructor as possible.

 

[ScottC]

I took a high-speed boating course here in Sweden (that was, um, long before I got my low-speed boat...). There were four of us, who met with the instructor 1-2x per week over 3 months. 95% of the course was practical experience on the (high-speed) boat. 5% classroom. It was great, as it included related add-on's like man-overboard practice.

I realize you're not taking a class, bit I think your idea of sharing is workable if each participant gets enough hands-on time in the presence of the instructor. Having others in your "class" also helps you sharpen your focus and try harder the first time ;-)

 

[psneeld]

I am guessing there will be some overlap in personal attention, so economy of sharing might be good...then again it could wind up split and 1/2 the cost but 1/2 the education.

 

[Ducatihottie]

Thanks. Sometimes I get a little "sticker shock" on the price of things, (plumbers, electricians....). This while I make less, "helping" to save lives. Not that they don't deserve their pay, I just don't make that much money for boat lessons.

Plus things always costs more here in the Seattle area as I'm seeing rates about $600 or more a day. After two weeks of training, (5 days a week), that's over $6,500 with taxes.

One local captain advertises, "We charge a daily rate, which allows for more people to join the training at no additional cost."

 

[psneeld]

Every instructor I trust won't charge for the day...few students are in their right minds after 4 hours anyway so its a waste of time....


One exception if it is a good mix of boathandling and hands on anything else training....even then most are fried after 4 hrs of intensive training of any kind.


The other exception is "cruise" training where you go out for multiple day cruises... they are pricey...but look what you can get from them if you really have never cruised. To cover that many subjects would take many half or full days and 9 times out of ten you get way more if the instructor is friendly and throws in a bit of teaching round the clock.


I used to have some important jobs and teaching boating while more of a love than a job....don't think for one minute that the going rate isn't deserved if the instructor is a pro.

 

[ScottC]

Thanks. Sometimes I get a little "sticker shock" on the price of things, (plumbers, electricians....). This while I make less, "helping" to save lives. Not that they don't deserve their pay, I just don't make that much money for boat lessons.

Plus things always costs more here in the Seattle area as I'm seeing rates about $600 or more a day. After two weeks of training, (5 days a week), that's over $6,500 with taxes.

One local captain advertises, "We charge a daily rate, which allows for more people to join the training at no additional cost."

I would suggest you take a day of training and then practice a week or two on your own, before taking another day of training (if necessary). I think 5 days in a row of training could be very wasteful if you're not taking time to practice (and think up questions) in between sessions.

 

[syjos]

As psneeld described, on the water training over 4 hours is counterproductive. You might try booking the instructor for 8 hours and have one person trained in the morning and the other in the afternoon. The second person is an observer only during the other persons instruction time. I would not train two people at the same time.

It's going to end up costing the same since since it takes X hours to train each person.

Ten days of training seems awfully excessive. 16 hours of instruction should suffice for most new boaters. Mornings, with light wind are devoted to docking practice and afternoons going over boat systems, emergencies etc. I preferred 5 hour days, 4 for handling and an hour for systems for three days to mitigate students fatigue.

If a student doesn't feel confident after 16 hours, additional time can be added. Most did fine after the initial 16 and some would ask for additional training after they boated and/or practiced docking for a while. After the initial 16 hours, additional time can be used for anchoring, locks and other subjects or to hone up on unusually difficult docking situations.

I charged $80/hr before I retired, 4 hour minimum. My competitors in the PNW charged as little as $30/hr (low self worth?) to $100/hr.

When hiring a boat handling instructor, interview them and talk to past clients to make sure their demeanor and teaching style is compatible with you. There are many excellent boat drivers out there but their ability to teach may be lacking. I worked with many instructors at EBYC and some taught like a drill sergeant and others like a kindergarten teacher. You need to find one that suits you since you're the one laying down the big $.

Boat insurance agents and charter companies can usually recommend a training captain.

And make sure they have a USCG license and ask them to show it to you.

 

[syjos]

I would suggest you take a day of training and then practice a week or two on your own, before taking another day of training (if necessary). I think 5 days in a row of training could be very wasteful if you're not taking time to practice (and think up questions) in between sessions.

I agree 100%

 

[Shifty]

My wife and I hired Captain Linda for a day lesson on our boat out of Shilshole in Seattle. She was super helpful - a bit blunt and direct, but we got a lot out of it.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have been told, if you are going to train your wife, get a female instructor and stay out of the way.

 

[psneeld]

For boathandling only...I wouldn't worry too much if the captain was licensed...but thy should be insured under someone or a check with your insurance company might be in order.


Some of the best boathandlers I ever knew were not USCG licensed.


For almost everything else, again the license is less important than the teaching ability...but in the big scheme of things you should be able to get a licensed, insured, capable instructor (at least if they are licensed, I will bet your insurance conpany will approve and may give a reduction in premium without much to say)...

 

[O C Diver]

I think taking some instruction in boat handling is a good way to start. Mentoring under a professional will make you a better boat handler. It's very comparable to scuba diving or maybe be golf in that learning the fundamentals doesn't take that long, but being proficient requires lots of practice. Having a pro dive, play a round, or cruise for a few hours with you, will dramatically improve your performance. Simply, they can show you you're deficiencies and offer techniques to improve your performance.

Ted

 

[Ducatihottie]

I've saw captain Linda's web page.

They deserve every penny as you can't put a price on saving one's life with proper training. Plus my best friend and dog will be on board....(oh and my wife).

I paid less than $600 for a 7 night cruise with Norwegian. Captain didn't teach me a thing though.

 

[syjos]

For boathandling only...I wouldn't worry too much if the captain was licensed...but thy should be insured under someone or a check with your insurance company might be in order.


Some of the best boathandlers I ever knew were not USCG licensed.


For almost everything else, again the license is less important than the teaching ability...but in the big scheme of things you should be able to get a licensed, insured, capable instructor (at least if they are licensed, I will bet your insurance conpany will approve and may give a reduction in premium without much to say)...

You're the CG guy.. I thought that a person had to be CG licensed in order to earn money on the water or with a paying passenger, which a student would be?

A CG licensed person has put in the time, effort and hours of study to earn the licenss. The CG license doesn't make a better instructor but if someone is going to charge money at it, that should be the minimum requirement when picking a boat driving instructor.

Plus, for the instructor, trying to convince a potential client to hire him/her, having the license makes closing the deal much easier.

And I agree that insurance companies prefer licensed skippers.

 

[psneeld]

I've saw captain Linda's web page.

They deserve every penny as you can't put a price on saving one's life with proper training. Plus my best friend and dog will be on board....(oh and my wife).

Funny thing, I actually paid less than $600 for a 7 night cruise with Norwegian.

Not sure what you are getting at about the comment of saving life in the same sentence as they desrve every penny....right after capt linda's web page comment???????


If you take along an entourage, that is listening.....they could be considered trainees too.


Cruises and boating instruction? Not sure they should be in the same sentence for comparitive costs.

 

[psneeld]

You're the CG guy.. I thought that a person had to be CG licensed in order to earn money on the water or with a paying passenger, which a student would be?

A CG licensed person has put in the time, effort and hours of study to earn the licenss. The CG license doesn't make a better instructor but if someone is going to charge money at it, that should be the minimum requirement when picking a boat driving instructor.

Plus, for the instructor, trying to convince a potential client to hire him/her, having the license makes closing the deal much easier.

And I agree that insurance companies prefer licensed skippers.

The USCG never adequately answered my direct question whether an owner paying someone as an instructor or delivery captain (if owner was aboard) was a captain of passengers for hire. They leaned towards not a requirement...but I bugged them for months and never got a clear reply. Because like a pilot on a ship and not all places treat it the same..... some places the pilot has ultimate responsibility, in others the captain does.



If you hire someone as a training captain...can't you fire him in a second? Then it really isnt the same as being a captain of a passenger vessel... is it?


People really don't get how much I have researched many of my answers...but believe me...I do.


And you are missing my point as far as skills as a boat handler and instructor. Most captains I know stink at instruction and many are even worse boathandlers than I am and I consider myself mediocre despite kind words from many....

 

[syjos]

I have been told, if you are going to train your wife, get a female instructor and stay out of the way.

I trained lots of women. They are a delight to teach. No macho BS, no bad habits to unlearn.

The husbands were not welcome aboard during instruction. That was in my contract.

A few pessimistic husbands reluctantly signed up for lessons after their wives were able to dock better than them after instruction.

 

[GFC]

Ducati, it's too bad you and your boat don't live in the Tri Cities. If you did, I'd give you instruction in boat handling...for free. I'm not licensed but I do bring 50 years of boat handling to the table.

 

[syjos]

The USCG never adequately answered my direct question whether an owner paying someone as an instructor or delivery captain (if owner was aboard) was a captain of passengers for hire. They leaned towards not a requirement...but I bugged them for months and never got a clear reply. Because like a pilot on a ship and not all places treat it the same..... some places the pilot has ultimate responsibility, in others the captain does.



If you hire someone as a training captain...can't you fire him in a second? Then it really isnt the same as being a captain of a passenger vessel... is it?


People really don't get how much I have researched many of my answers...but believe me...I do.


And you are missing my point as far as skills as a boat handler and instructor. Most captains I know stink at instruction and many are even worse boathandlers than I am and I consider myself mediocre despite kind words from many....

I had a signed contract and prepayment from clients. I'm not sure if I could be fired.

No I agree that being able to teach is an intrinsic skill. I know a lot of guys that are better boat drivers than I am but have no ability, patience or demeanor to impart their skills to others.

I've seen the results of a "buddy" with XX years of experience giving boat driving instruction to a new boater. They mostly show off by showing them how it's done, rarely relinquishing the wheel. During my 25 plus years of teaching, I probably took the wheel less than 10 times. I had brand new boaters back out of their slip and back in after going over the details. It builds confidence quickly.

I was fortunate in being hired by a large yacht time share company right after obtaining my license. They had a training program with instructors to teach skippers how to instruct in a certain successful way. They had over 180 vessels and between 8 to 15 instructors. Half the skippers were not licensed and limited to certain vessels due to the yacht insurance requirements. The licensed skippers who were independent contractors could pick and choose any vessels and client. The unlicensed earned less money and took what we didn't want.

A lot of teaching skippers in the PNW received their training and experience at EBYC and after a few years, quit and went independent. Bob Meng was one of the more well known boat handling instructors in the PNW coming out of EBYC.

 

[psneeld]

I am not sure I have seen a delivery/instructional contract that says you have strict control of a vessel for the duration of the agree upon time...maybe paid for the full time (or part thereof), but you can be terminated at the discretion of the owner at any time.

I believe that's why the USCG couldn't give me a direct answer....to many ifs depending on contracts, agreements, what really means what in a contract...so each situation would be a case by case issue if the USCG got involved.


And I have seen buddies that could teach and drive circles around some of my captain friends. I don't think any of my places of education were maxed out with top notch "professional" teachers...it's just a probability thing.

I taught captain licensing for years and saw so many guys who thought they would get their license and become delivery captains, charter captains, teaching captains etc. The truth is most didn't make it because it was based on a dream and they didn't realize so much more was needed than just a license.

At a boat show I had a wannabe come to me and pick my brain to start a teaching business. He had I think a single typed sheet of things he would cover. I told him, I am no business major...but every successful boating school I had ever come across had multiple books or binders full of class outlines and quizzes and handouts, etc...etc. He was shocked...but typical of so many that thought the license was the "ticket" (pun intended). He went off with a new attitude and last I check had one of the largest schools in the region.

But he admitted that he was a novice boat driver...again one of those guys who coud tech but couldn't drive...and there are those that can drive but cant teach...and there are those that can do both but aren't licensed...takes all kinds in this world.

So if you are gonna pay money...make sure you do your homework and like what was offered already here...is sometime the instructor might just be a guy at your own marina if you ask around and the price might be right...if it doesn't work you can hire someone else to finish the job.

 

[Swfla]

A person can be hired by a private owner to run the owner's boat. No Captain license required. That's a fact. I worked in the yachting industry for decades. In another thread I suggested Ducattie hire a Captain but as stated above, it's really about finding someone who knows and can teach. I see the CL ad was flagged and pulled. Ducattie, you ask a lot of great questions but tend to take the great answers and bend them to the point of no longer being the original advice. It takes you off track. Everybody's boat is different, you're not going to get the specific answers to the long list specific questions you posted in another thread the way you're going. There's a club called "Power Squadron" near you. Go to a meeting. You may find lots of new friends and help there. That's probably the best place to find knowledgeable people who can point you in the right direction or lend you a hand. I think this will give you the direction that you really need and keep you on track. https://www.seattlesailpowersquadron.org/membership-faq COVID may delay meetings but helpful people will be available.

 

[Ducatihottie]

OK, who flagged my Craigslist add for removal? How do I know? People here in Seattle are to busy rioting to login to Craigslist

Thanks for all the information ablove.

 

[Portage_Bay]

After I retired from running boats I stuck my toe in the training biz. As many here have said only a few are good teachers. I learned I'm not one. But I did make some observations that may help you.

As others have said 4 hrs intensive training is a long day. As a generalization women are easier to teach than men. Find a personality that fits for you and your wife. If the 1st doesn't fit, say thanks but no thanks and try #2. Keep it up till you find a good fit.

Make sure you and your boat are ready. My first customer asked if he could have his buddies along for additional training. I said "Sure, no problem". When I got to the boat they were sitting in chairs on the bow sucking down cocktails. He hoped up, went to the helm and said "Let's Go!". The boat was nowhere near ready to go. I coached him through getting ready to get underway and we departed some time later. About and hour and a half into it with heavy traffic approaching the engine quit from blocked fuel filters with no spares aboard. As I said, make sure you're ready, make sure your boat is ready.

Next up was a husband and wife team. He an experienced boater but with lots to learn. Her almost no experience. He wanted me to tell her his way of handling the boat. I would have none of it and instructed him to stay out of the wheel house while she was the trainee. He grumbled, but agreed. In short order she was docking a single screw boat with use of the thruster in a strong cross wind.

I could keep on but you get the idea. You, your boat and your wife ready to go. When it's your wife's turn you are the line handler and that's it.

 

[Ducatihottie]

Love the wife advice. So I guess there will now be three, my wife, me and someone to share in the cost. Wonder how that'll work.

 

[jleonard]

Here's another approach if your boatyard/marina has mechanics.
In our marina the mechanics/techs drive every bat that gets launched into their slips. They also test drive boats after they repair them thus they are excellent boat handlers on darned near any kind or configuration of boats.
Talk to one and see if they would teach you after hours.
I see this often around the marina.

 

[ktdtx]

As a consumer of some boating instruction a number of years ago I agree with the 4 hour day. Also I wouldn't plan for 2 weeks straight of instruction. Get some training, practice some, get some training, practice some, etc. And the practice doesn't have to be all work--plan your practice around some fun--day trips, weekend trips.



Once you get the feel for the boat, are able to safely maneuver it in different conditions you will feel more confident to expand your own envelope

 

[Swfla]

The title of your thread is Sharing boat handling lessons. Unless the two owners have boats in the same marina, the logistics of giving hands-on lessons on each boat would require an Uber for all or separate session/days on each boat(private lessons). You're again entering the area of being focused on saving money when you need to focus on learning about your boat. In another post, you stated that you were afraid to let professional cleaners on your boats, afraid they would damage it. I think it's another case of frugality. As I've mentioned, I worked in the Yachting industry for years and met many new boaters and even worse, experienced boats from Great Lakes assuming boat maintenance in saltwater is the same. I'm being brutally honest and objective when I say I've met guys like you, intelligent, good questions but insist on doing it your way and ignoring advice from seasoned boaters often based upon cost. I can be brutally honest here because I'm not trying to land an account. Some things can be shared to save money. Not in this case. The huge majority of folks here are giving you great advice, still, you twist it to try and make it less costly. If you find it a poor value to join the power squadron (the cheapest way to get great advice) or hire private handling lessons, watching neighbors dock their single screw trawler and asking for their help is better than nothing.

 

[Swfla]

Here's another approach if your boatyard/marina has mechanics.
In our marina the mechanics/techs drive every bat that gets launched into their slips. They also test drive boats after they repair them thus they are excellent boat handlers on darned near any kind or configuration of boats.
Talk to one and see if they would teach you after hours.
I see this often around the marina.

Excellent suggestion. They can dock any boat you hand them. Just remember mechanics make a good hourly rate and are unlikely to do this for cheap on their day off and also not going to want their brains picked for in depth maintenance advice.

 

[Seevee]

Lots of good advise.....


If one shares and instructor, I could argue that you hire the instructor for perhaps 6 or 8 hours.


Break the day up as follows: (plus or minus a bit)

2 hours: Briefing
2 hours your turn at the wheel
2 hours your buddies turn at the wheel
2 hours of debrief.


When it's your turn, he observes and says NOTHING.... takes notes for the debrief.


You'll get a LOT out of the lesson watching your buddy screw up and you'll see it before he does. Cost effective.


You'll both get a lot from the brief, de brief.


I could argue to learn just a few skills at one lesson. Perhaps holding position, and simple no wind docking. You'll just get the basics, but enough perhaps to go out an plan. Have a simple way to get back home if you just can't do it, or plan on lesson 2 before going solo.




====
As for being on my boat when the wife is being trained.... hell yes. I may not like the way the instructor handles things and I've seen a few. It's my boat, not hers.



Fortunately, I've had excellent luck teaching the wife (and girlfriends) how to boat and fly..... just not at the same time.....