Samson Post vs Hawse Cleats?

[ERTF]

My boat has hawse cleats in the bow as well as a real sampson post. When anchoring for a major blow, i'm debating whether I'm better off just cleating off my snubber bridle vs running the snubber through the hawse cleat holes and then 90 degrees directly to the samson post.

Obviously the samson post is stronger than the cleats. But the downside of the post is the chafe potential with that 90 degree turn and freedom that allows the snubber line to freely move on that edge as the tension alternates between left & right arms of the bridle. I do use firehose jacket to prevent chafe either way.

Opinions?

 

[rgano]

Firehose jacket will likely keep the usually occurring rain from cooling the snubber lines. Find something porous instead. Heating of nylon mooring lines in rough conditions can melt them or reduce their strength. Now if you had short lengths of chain with fire hose abrasion protection going through the turn at the hawses and the nylon spliced to appropriate thimbles shackled to the chain, you'd have a going concern. How is the anchor rode itself secured as a backup to the snubber, and is the overall snubber engineered to be less strong than the rode?

 

[Comodave]

Firehose jacket will likely keep the usually occurring rain from cooling the snubber lines. Find something porous instead. Heating of nylon mooring lines in rough conditions can melt them or reduce their strength. Now if you had short lengths of chain with fire hose abrasion protection going through the turn at the hawses and the nylon spliced to appropriate thimbles shackled to the chain, you'd have a going concern. How is the anchor rode itself secured as a backup to the snubber, and is the overall snubber engineered to be less strong than the rode?

+1 on not using the fire hose. You do want something porous so the rain water will cool the nylon line. I use some chaffing gear made by Davis, I think, it isn’t waterproof so water can soak through it.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I’ve had both and wouldn’t spec either on a new boat.
I like chocks and cleats .. big cleats.
Well backed of course.

Hawse cleats or holes basically require you to get on your knees and lean over the rail to “install” the line on the boat. It’s hard to find good well faired chocks though.

Don’t like the skinny pegs on the side of samson posts. Dosn’t take much line before there’s no more room or the line may not stay where it needs to be.
The post is frequently too high for high strength.

Personally I think both are used on smaller boats to attain a ship-like look. I frequently convert to two post big cleats w four bolt attachment.

The line in the pic is the end of my rode.

 

[ERTF]

I remove the rubber part of the hose and use a much larger diameter than the snubber, but I'll take it into consideration because I've seen this debated before.

I live on the hook, and employ 1/2" bridle about 40 ft. I use that same snubber for storms, except I also rig a thicker backup cleated off short (with excess that can be let out if necessary) to work as a backup if the long/thin snubber fails.

Once again though, my question is about opinions on directly to hawse cleat vs through hawse cleat to samson post.

 

[Comodave]

As to whether to just cleat the line on the hawse cleat or go through the hawse hole and go to the samson post, it would depend on what angle the line takes at the hawse hole. If it is a gentle angle then probably but if it is a sharp angle then probably not. As the line takes a sharp turn at the hawse hole it will be more likely to chafe through. How well is the samson post attached? If you do go to the samson post then take a couple of turns around the post before securing the line on the Norman pin. This is assuming that the post doesn’t have sharp corners on it. The turns on the post is what will take most of the strain. The Norman pin it just to hold the end of the line but doesn’t take that much strain.

 

[ERTF]

The samson post is legit, it goes straight down to the super structure.

But its directly between each hawse cleat, so that snubber line would be making a 90 degree corner (actually even more acute considering rhe bridle comes to the boat at an angle).

Typically i always just leave my snubbers cleated off. But I have seen those same cleats midship flex a ridiculous amount when I had my skiff hip tied in some rough stuff. So I wonder how strong they really are.

I know the sampson post is strong. So this storm made me think it's ashame to just have it sitting there unused, but I don't like those 90 degree angles on the snubber.

 

[Comodave]

What condition are the hawse cleats? I have seen them bend the horns under heavy load. That is one of the things I don’t like about them. Is there a place to add some cleats on the deck so you get a good (small change in direction of the line) angle from the hawse hole? If there is a place to add a couple of cleats that may be a good solution. Just install them properly and with a good backing plate.

 

[Comodave]

The samson post is legit, it goes straight down to the super structure.

But its directly between each hawse cleat, so that snubber line would be making a 90 degree corner (actually even more acute considering rhe bridle comes to the boat at an angle).

Typically i always just leave my snubbers cleated off. But I have seen those same cleats midship flex a ridiculous amount when I had my skiff hip tied in some rough stuff. So I wonder how strong they really are.

I know the sampson post is strong. So this storm made me think it's ashame to just have it sitting there unused, but I don't like those 90 degree angles on the snubber.

I agree that is not a good angle for chaffing. See my post about adding a couple of cleats. I don’t love the hawse cleats for that reason.

 

[Simi 60]

Firehose jacket will likely keep the usually occurring rain from cooling the snubber lines. Find something porous instead. Heating of nylon mooring lines in rough conditions can melt them or reduce their strength.

I must be doing something wrong
Our nylon snubber has cheap clear pvc hose over it as it runs over the roller.
4 years of anchoring daily in all sorts of conditions and losing a snubber due to "melting" is the least of my concerns

 

[Comodave]

Well maybe the roller is helping to keep the line from overheating.

 

[ERTF]

Yeah I'll probably just stick with going straight to the hawse cleats. Realistically with that long stretchy snubber, yanking the cleat out is extremely unlikely compared to the chances of rubbing thru a line with a 90 degree angle.

 

[O C Diver]

Maybe a simpler approach would be to make a second snubber for heavy weather out of larger diameter 3 strand nylon.

The other alternative would be to do a very long spice loop. Basically you have a loop to drop over the Sampson post and the splice extends out the hawse pipe. Ounce stretched, the splice through the hawse pipe stretches very little and the line outside the pipe does all the stretching.

Ted

 

[catalinajack]

Bent horns, I have seen some DeFever owners reinforce their hawse cleats by welding a bar across the horns. The cleats on DeFevers are beefy so that is a modification I would not bother with given the extreme conditions that would be needed to bend a horn. Also, I use a bridle so, most of the time, the forces are absorbed by two cleats rather than one. Different boats, different needs, different solutions.

What condition are the hawse cleats? I have seen them bend the horns under heavy load. That is one of the things I don’t like about them. Is there a place to add some cleats on the deck so you get a good (small change in direction of the line) angle from the hawse hole? If there is a place to add a couple of cleats that may be a good solution. Just install them properly and with a good backing plate.

 

[ksceviour]

The first question to answer.. is it a proper samson post or decoration?

A proper samson post transfers the load right to the keel of the boat like you see in the pic whereas you'll find most samson posts simply have a backing plate under the deck providing a 'salty' look nothing more. My boat is designed this way (small stainless backing plate below the deck) which is why I consider the thing more decoration than function. In a blow I snub off to cleats on both sides of the bow and install chafing guards on the lines. The only thing we use the post for is to snub the anchor off when its up.

A real samson post, one that was meant to be used, is one of the strongest points on the boat. If it doesn't break off failure means you literally have to tear the front off the boat. On mine, and a great many others, you just have to break the deck which is pretty easy to imagine when dealing with tons of force.

A couple years ago we hauled a 40' sailboat off some rocks, at their request, damage inspection done etc, and I never considered using the samson post for a second.

 

[ksceviour]

Proper posts

Here are a couple of proper posts before installatio, IMHO, and one that's destined to be simple decoration.

 

[Chrisjs]

I experimented with different snubber arrangements before finding the one that worked best on my boat.

I tried the bridle system with lines brought through forward hawse pipes but found that the as the boat moved back and forth the lines would tend to "saw" back and forth across the bow, no matter how long they were. This may be a function of how far forward the entry points are - closer to the bow the better.

I ended up with a very simple arrangement that served us well. A single line attached with a rolling hitch to the chain and brought back over the anchor roller to the samson post. This kept the snubber in line with anchor chain. I would leave along catenary of anchor chain when the snubber was attached and also added a 'back-up" shorter snubber of thicker line also tied back to the samson post

 

[Nomad Willy]

In post #15 the load goes mostly into the deck beam and the rest of the deck.

This Sampson post is (sadly) way too high and acts like a cheater bar.

Another Sampson post in post #16 is also too tall. The smaller .. lower one on that post is OK. I have one like it and it’s plenty strong. I do full power run-ups tied to it. But I’d rather have a cleat. With the loops though I can get the load low .. as it should be.

 

[ksceviour]

In post #15 the load goes mostly into the deck beam and the rest of the deck.

This Sampson post is (sadly) way too high and acts like a cheater bar.

Another Sampson post in post #16 is also too tall. The smaller .. lower one on that post is OK. I have one like it and it’s plenty strong. I do full power run-ups tied to it. But I’d rather have a cleat. With the loops though I can get the load low .. as it should be.

I don't disagree, it was simply meant to show a samson post integral to a boats frame.

In any case, the takeaway is a true samson post is part of the boats structure and not simply back plated below the deck which may look strong but can't take a serious load.

 

[Nomad Willy]

ksceviour,
Indeed you’re correct and I didn’t mean to muddy the essence of your posts. And what a great picture to show the good way to install a Sampson post from the keel up. If the Sampson post was short as in post #16 they would be excellent. The tall ones are (I don’t use this word often) stupid.