Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[long-cours.62]

Or like our former

You mean like this?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/vripack-13-65-3198729/

Doggerbank "Vripack" designed by Vripack but built by a Nederland boatyard (photo below)






or like this "Vripack" explorer design Vripack builder Aluship Poland

https://yachts.nl/yachts-for-sale/steel-motor-yacht/aluship-explorer-vessel-79-aluship-technology



or like this "Stentor" Vripack, Vripack designed but built in Romania


https://www.yachtworld.fr/bateaux/2008/stentor-1700-3514210/

etc etc



https://vripack.com/studio/the-team/

 

[Baker]

Thanks for the great read guys!!! One of the best threads on this forum in a long time!!! I have nothing to offer...it has been covered extensively.

 

[SailorGreg]

hello Magnito,
Spoiler alert! I own a Krogen 52. That said, I dont have much to argue with the N owners out there. Great boats as well. But I will say that most of what distinguishes the two boats in terms of their ocean going capability is marketing. Both boats are capable of, and have crossed oceans. And I would argue that a single with a dry stack is not more reliable than a twin with wet exhaust. But no intention to get into KK vs N here. But I do have to mention, Krogen Cruisers is an active association of fellow owners, similar to the N group. There have been over 600 Krogens built and most are still actively cruising. And all Krogens have completely protected props.
When we started shopping, N was at the top of the list. What moved us to the KK, was not any perception of quality, but more about where we like to cruise.
We cruised the Bahamas in our prior sailboat that drew 7' and had a good time. But our KK52 draws less that 5' and opens up lots of territory. The N55 draws 6.5. And our air draft, with the mast down, is less than 15', which opens up cruising the canals of the US and Canada. If these areas are not on your cruising plans, then never mind.
I have spent a fair amount of time offshore. Mostly in sailboats going from NE to the Caribbean. Pretty much, thats the only way to get a large sailboat back and forth, so thats what we did, multiple times. As a previous poster already stated; its mostly boring, until a front comes through or something breaks.
As to crossing oceans in a trawler, our 52 is perfectly capable, but I have no intention of doing it. First, it is mostly boring, then a storm comes by and it is miserable. A sailboat is a relatively simple system. With our sailboat, once we were at sea and the engine was shut down, I was pretty sure I could make it to the islands with no engine, no electricity, not even any nav gear. ( we would find one island or another, I figured) But that same trip in a trawler requires lots of systems to keep running. And dont for a minute think that a get home engine will actually get you home from way offshore. If I am not careful I will wander into the single or twin debate, but for crossing oceans alone I couldnt imagine doing it w a single.
Our sailboat was comfortable in 15-20' seas. And we saw them more than once. While either the KK or the N can handle these seas, it will not be comfortable. And if an engine quits (and you only have one, maybe) or you blow your hydraulics and loose stabilization, you are in a precarious position.
I dont mean to be rude, but most of the folks who buy an ocean going trawler with the intention of crossing oceans, have never crossed an ocean, or even part of one. Once they do a little offshore work, they realize maybe its not so much fun. Once they grasp the complexity, the experience required, and the cost, they think twice.
I would take a guess and suggest, all added up, it is cheaper to ship a boat than drive it across on its own bottom, considering the redundancy needed, the spares inventory, crew, fuel, etc.
Try this question on the forum: "For all of you with at least 10,000 hours of cruising, and at least a dozen multi-night coastal passages, how many of you have ever, or will ever, or even want to, cross an ocean?"
I say all this, because you may be basing so much of your selection criteria on the relatively short ocean crossing phase. Meanwhile, you will be living aboard full time. So that brings up a couple of other items from your list.
Big Fridge. More important is a second deep freezer. For off the grid cruising, I use 30 days self sufficiency for planning purposes. Food, water, fuel, etc. For ocean going travel you might need to make that 45 days. We fish a lot.
Mid-ship master. Why? It may be more comfortable offshore, but only if it is oriented fore and aft. But if you are travelling in the tropics it will necessitate running the AC every night when you sleep. If you plan lots of genset running, then no problem, but there is little or no ventilation mid ship, compared to the fwd. berth. We never run our ac except in marinas. We live aboard full time, log about 500 hrs a year, and we anchor out in the Bahamas a lot. When we are offshore, I sleep in the guest berth, mid ship. Maybe 1o nights a year. The rest of the time we enjoy the tropical breeze in the forward berth.
Hiring a Captain. If you start out with a big boat, likely your insurer will require a captain for a period of time, and for all offshore work for the first year or so.
It takes more learning than just how to drive the boat. Being able to maintain all the systems, which is essential for your plans, requires lots of experience. Lots. Sure, you are handy, and an engineer. lots of us are engineers. It still takes years to learn enough to be able to fix everything when off the grid. And it isnt so much the skill to fix something, it is the skill to be able to diagnose the failure to begin with.
I would suggest you consider hiring an experienced consultant before you buy anything. Knowing whether a boat has all the systems and redundancy for offshore, off the grid travel, is not something you will glean from the internet. And configuring a new boat, be it KKY or N, is the same. How best to implement back up systems and redundancy requires lots of experience. It is easy, if you arent careful, to end up with a boat that is so complex it never leaves the yard because something is always broken.

respectfully,
greg

 

[syjos]

hello Magnito,
Spoiler alert! I own a Krogen 52. That said, I dont have much to argue with the N owners out there. Great boats as well. But I will say that most of what distinguishes the two boats in terms of their ocean going capability is marketing. Both boats are capable of, and have crossed oceans. And I would argue that a single with a dry stack is not more reliable than a twin with wet exhaust. But no intention to get into KK vs N here. But I do have to mention, Krogen Cruisers is an active association of fellow owners, similar to the N group. There have been over 600 Krogens built and most are still actively cruising. And all Krogens have completely protected props.
When we started shopping, N was at the top of the list. What moved us to the KK, was not any perception of quality, but more about where we like to cruise.
We cruised the Bahamas in our prior sailboat that drew 7' and had a good time. But our KK52 draws less that 5' and opens up lots of territory. The N55 draws 6.5. And our air draft, with the mast down, is less than 15', which opens up cruising the canals of the US and Canada. If these areas are not on your cruising plans, then never mind.
I have spent a fair amount of time offshore. Mostly in sailboats going from NE to the Caribbean. Pretty much, thats the only way to get a large sailboat back and forth, so thats what we did, multiple times. As a previous poster already stated; its mostly boring, until a front comes through or something breaks.
As to crossing oceans in a trawler, our 52 is perfectly capable, but I have no intention of doing it. First, it is mostly boring, then a storm comes by and it is miserable. A sailboat is a relatively simple system. With our sailboat, once we were at sea and the engine was shut down, I was pretty sure I could make it to the islands with no engine, no electricity, not even any nav gear. ( we would find one island or another, I figured) But that same trip in a trawler requires lots of systems to keep running. And dont for a minute think that a get home engine will actually get you home from way offshore. If I am not careful I will wander into the single or twin debate, but for crossing oceans alone I couldnt imagine doing it w a single.
Our sailboat was comfortable in 15-20' seas. And we saw them more than once. While either the KK or the N can handle these seas, it will not be comfortable. And if an engine quits (and you only have one, maybe) or you blow your hydraulics and loose stabilization, you are in a precarious position.
I dont mean to be rude, but most of the folks who buy an ocean going trawler with the intention of crossing oceans, have never crossed an ocean, or even part of one. Once they do a little offshore work, they realize maybe its not so much fun. Once they grasp the complexity, the experience required, and the cost, they think twice.
I would take a guess and suggest, all added up, it is cheaper to ship a boat than drive it across on its own bottom, considering the redundancy needed, the spares inventory, crew, fuel, etc.
Try this question on the forum: "For all of you with at least 10,000 hours of cruising, and at least a dozen multi-night coastal passages, how many of you have ever, or will ever, or even want to, cross an ocean?"
I say all this, because you may be basing so much of your selection criteria on the relatively short ocean crossing phase. Meanwhile, you will be living aboard full time. So that brings up a couple of other items from your list.
Big Fridge. More important is a second deep freezer. For off the grid cruising, I use 30 days self sufficiency for planning purposes. Food, water, fuel, etc. For ocean going travel you might need to make that 45 days. We fish a lot.
Mid-ship master. Why? It may be more comfortable offshore, but only if it is oriented fore and aft. But if you are travelling in the tropics it will necessitate running the AC every night when you sleep. If you plan lots of genset running, then no problem, but there is little or no ventilation mid ship, compared to the fwd. berth. We never run our ac except in marinas. We live aboard full time, log about 500 hrs a year, and we anchor out in the Bahamas a lot. When we are offshore, I sleep in the guest berth, mid ship. Maybe 1o nights a year. The rest of the time we enjoy the tropical breeze in the forward berth.
Hiring a Captain. If you start out with a big boat, likely your insurer will require a captain for a period of time, and for all offshore work for the first year or so.
It takes more learning than just how to drive the boat. Being able to maintain all the systems, which is essential for your plans, requires lots of experience. Lots. Sure, you are handy, and an engineer. lots of us are engineers. It still takes years to learn enough to be able to fix everything when off the grid. And it isnt so much the skill to fix something, it is the skill to be able to diagnose the failure to begin with.
I would suggest you consider hiring an experienced consultant before you buy anything. Knowing whether a boat has all the systems and redundancy for offshore, off the grid travel, is not something you will glean from the internet. And configuring a new boat, be it KKY or N, is the same. How best to implement back up systems and redundancy requires lots of experience. It is easy, if you arent careful, to end up with a boat that is so complex it never leaves the yard because something is always broken.

respectfully,
greg

This is very good advice.

 

[Simi 60]

Lots of excellent points there Greg and I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[guy with a boat]

Sailor Greg is on the money. Magnito, I would save this post and refer to it as you work the process. It makes many good points. I say that as a N owner with a few years on the water, including time on both coasts of the US, Canada and the Caribe. We don’t know what we don’t know, and it takes time to learn, no matter how smart and prepared we may be at the beginning.
P.S. Multi-day offshore passages suck.

 

[MapisM]

Multi-day offshore passages suck

+1, that's what I've been saying for years, since my very first multi-day passage.
But it's refreshing to see a Nordhavn owner who agrees!

 

[mvweebles]

Sailor Greg is on the money. Magnito, I would save this post and refer to it as you work the process. It makes many good points. I say that as a N owner with a few years on the water, including time on both coasts of the US, Canada and the Caribe. We don’t know what we don’t know, and it takes time to learn, no matter how smart and prepared we may be at the beginning.
P.S. Multi-day offshore passages suck.

Huh. I absolutely love multi day passages. While I've never crossed an ocean, I have dozens of 5+ day passages and greatly prefer them when practical. Likely due to most of my boating being deliveries on the pacific coast where safe harbors can be far apart and not always convenient. To me, passagemaking is all about a cup of coffee at first light.

The long post by Sailor is the definitive post.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Definitely a pioneering example.

My 1986 Hatteras came with Niaad fins from new. A previous owner increased the size from 6sq ft to 9 sq ft many years ago and they are still working just fine. They get turned on when we leave the dock and off when we shut down the mains.

 

[O C Diver]

This is an interesting difference between Canada and the US: in Canada you need to have a certain number of “current” commercial hours logged in order to obtain a 100 or whatever tonnage license, AND you need recently obtained hours for renewal.

For example for the 60 ton ticket you need 60 days, and for the 350 ton license you need 12 months. For a Fishing Master license of 100 tons you need 12 months.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-97-391/latest/sor-97-391.html

That’s why you seldom see many Canadian recreational vessel owners with 100 ton licenses and the like.

Jim

You can find the license requirements at the below link. In summary:

An OUPV 100 ton ocean license requires 360 days of sea time including 90 days in the last 3 years in corresponding tonnage.

A Masters 100 ton ocean license requires 720 days of sea time including 90 days in the last 3 years in corresponding tonnage.

http://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php?unit=054-09&category=captains-license-info

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

You can find the license requirements at the below link. In summary:

An OUPV 100 ton ocean license requires 360 days of sea time including 90 days in the last 3 years in corresponding tonnage.

A Masters 100 ton ocean license requires 720 days of sea time including 90 days in the last 3 years in corresponding tonnage.

Captains' License Information

Ted

I think it's a bit more demanding that that. Those times are at best for a Near Coastal qualification. I think this is a more complete list of the requirements for 100 ton for different cruising areas:


100 Ton Master, Near Coastal:
720 days
90 in past 3 years
360 outside boundary
180 days over 51T or 360 days over 34T


100 Ton Master, Ocean:
1080 days 90 in past 3 years
540 outside boundary
720 licensed
270 days over 51T or 540 days over 34T


I've got my 100 ton Near Shore, and I just got enough time a few years ago. I'm still short about 50 days of off-shore operation to qualify for Ocean navigation. Unless you are working on a boat full time, I think it's actually pretty hard to build up the time, especially off shore time. But I suppose it depends a lot where you are located, and how far you are from being on the other side of the "boundary line".

 

[O C Diver]

I think it's a bit more demanding that that. Those times are at best for a Near Coastal qualification. I think this is a more complete list of the requirements for 100 ton for different cruising areas:


100 Ton Master, Near Coastal:
720 days
90 in past 3 years
360 outside boundary
180 days over 51T or 360 days over 34T


100 Ton Master, Ocean:
1080 days 90 in past 3 years
540 outside boundary
720 licensed
270 days over 51T or 540 days over 34T


I've got my 100 ton Near Shore, and I just got enough time a few years ago. I'm still short about 50 days of off-shore operation to qualify for Ocean navigation. Unless you are working on a boat full time, I think it's actually pretty hard to build up the time, especially off shore time. But I suppose it depends a lot where you are located, and how far you are from being on the other side of the "boundary line".

Not sure what you're referring to with "Near Shore ". The USCG requirements which I linked, list "Near Costal" as 100 miles offshore. Unless you are referring to further endorsements, vessels over 100 tons, or international voyages, the requirements were as I specified out to 100 miles.

Ted

Edit: This part is correct
180 days over 51T or 360 days over 34T

From the USCG site:

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/nmc/charter_boat_captain/

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_15_web.pdf

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

hello Magnito,
Spoiler alert! I own a Krogen 52. That said, I dont have much to argue with the N owners out there. Great boats as well. But I will say that most of what distinguishes the two boats in terms of their ocean going capability is marketing. Both boats are capable of, and have crossed oceans. And I would argue that a single with a dry stack is not more reliable than a twin with wet exhaust. But no intention to get into KK vs N here. But I do have to mention, Krogen Cruisers is an active association of fellow owners, similar to the N group. There have been over 600 Krogens built and most are still actively cruising. And all Krogens have completely protected props.
When we started shopping, N was at the top of the list. What moved us to the KK, was not any perception of quality, but more about where we like to cruise.
We cruised the Bahamas in our prior sailboat that drew 7' and had a good time. But our KK52 draws less that 5' and opens up lots of territory. The N55 draws 6.5. And our air draft, with the mast down, is less than 15', which opens up cruising the canals of the US and Canada. If these areas are not on your cruising plans, then never mind.
I have spent a fair amount of time offshore. Mostly in sailboats going from NE to the Caribbean. Pretty much, thats the only way to get a large sailboat back and forth, so thats what we did, multiple times. As a previous poster already stated; its mostly boring, until a front comes through or something breaks.
As to crossing oceans in a trawler, our 52 is perfectly capable, but I have no intention of doing it. First, it is mostly boring, then a storm comes by and it is miserable. A sailboat is a relatively simple system. With our sailboat, once we were at sea and the engine was shut down, I was pretty sure I could make it to the islands with no engine, no electricity, not even any nav gear. ( we would find one island or another, I figured) But that same trip in a trawler requires lots of systems to keep running. And dont for a minute think that a get home engine will actually get you home from way offshore. If I am not careful I will wander into the single or twin debate, but for crossing oceans alone I couldnt imagine doing it w a single.
Our sailboat was comfortable in 15-20' seas. And we saw them more than once. While either the KK or the N can handle these seas, it will not be comfortable. And if an engine quits (and you only have one, maybe) or you blow your hydraulics and loose stabilization, you are in a precarious position.
I dont mean to be rude, but most of the folks who buy an ocean going trawler with the intention of crossing oceans, have never crossed an ocean, or even part of one. Once they do a little offshore work, they realize maybe its not so much fun. Once they grasp the complexity, the experience required, and the cost, they think twice.
I would take a guess and suggest, all added up, it is cheaper to ship a boat than drive it across on its own bottom, considering the redundancy needed, the spares inventory, crew, fuel, etc.
Try this question on the forum: "For all of you with at least 10,000 hours of cruising, and at least a dozen multi-night coastal passages, how many of you have ever, or will ever, or even want to, cross an ocean?"
I say all this, because you may be basing so much of your selection criteria on the relatively short ocean crossing phase. Meanwhile, you will be living aboard full time. So that brings up a couple of other items from your list.
Big Fridge. More important is a second deep freezer. For off the grid cruising, I use 30 days self sufficiency for planning purposes. Food, water, fuel, etc. For ocean going travel you might need to make that 45 days. We fish a lot.
Mid-ship master. Why? It may be more comfortable offshore, but only if it is oriented fore and aft. But if you are travelling in the tropics it will necessitate running the AC every night when you sleep. If you plan lots of genset running, then no problem, but there is little or no ventilation mid ship, compared to the fwd. berth. We never run our ac except in marinas. We live aboard full time, log about 500 hrs a year, and we anchor out in the Bahamas a lot. When we are offshore, I sleep in the guest berth, mid ship. Maybe 1o nights a year. The rest of the time we enjoy the tropical breeze in the forward berth.
Hiring a Captain. If you start out with a big boat, likely your insurer will require a captain for a period of time, and for all offshore work for the first year or so.
It takes more learning than just how to drive the boat. Being able to maintain all the systems, which is essential for your plans, requires lots of experience. Lots. Sure, you are handy, and an engineer. lots of us are engineers. It still takes years to learn enough to be able to fix everything when off the grid. And it isnt so much the skill to fix something, it is the skill to be able to diagnose the failure to begin with.
I would suggest you consider hiring an experienced consultant before you buy anything. Knowing whether a boat has all the systems and redundancy for offshore, off the grid travel, is not something you will glean from the internet. And configuring a new boat, be it KKY or N, is the same. How best to implement back up systems and redundancy requires lots of experience. It is easy, if you arent careful, to end up with a boat that is so complex it never leaves the yard because something is always broken.

respectfully,
greg

excellent post! Very well said.

 

[greatpapabear]

hello Magnito,
Spoiler alert! I own a Krogen 52. That said, I dont have much to argue with the N owners out there. Great boats as well. But I will say that most of what distinguishes the two boats in terms of their ocean going capability is marketing. Both boats are capable of, and have crossed oceans. And I would argue that a single with a dry stack is not more reliable than a twin with wet exhaust. But no intention to get into KK vs N here. But I do have to mention, Krogen Cruisers is an active association of fellow owners, similar to the N group. There have been over 600 Krogens built and most are still actively cruising. And all Krogens have completely protected props.
When we started shopping, N was at the top of the list. What moved us to the KK, was not any perception of quality, but more about where we like to cruise.
We cruised the Bahamas in our prior sailboat that drew 7' and had a good time. But our KK52 draws less that 5' and opens up lots of territory. The N55 draws 6.5. And our air draft, with the mast down, is less than 15', which opens up cruising the canals of the US and Canada. If these areas are not on your cruising plans, then never mind.
I have spent a fair amount of time offshore. Mostly in sailboats going from NE to the Caribbean. Pretty much, thats the only way to get a large sailboat back and forth, so thats what we did, multiple times. As a previous poster already stated; its mostly boring, until a front comes through or something breaks.
As to crossing oceans in a trawler, our 52 is perfectly capable, but I have no intention of doing it. First, it is mostly boring, then a storm comes by and it is miserable. A sailboat is a relatively simple system. With our sailboat, once we were at sea and the engine was shut down, I was pretty sure I could make it to the islands with no engine, no electricity, not even any nav gear. ( we would find one island or another, I figured) But that same trip in a trawler requires lots of systems to keep running. And dont for a minute think that a get home engine will actually get you home from way offshore. If I am not careful I will wander into the single or twin debate, but for crossing oceans alone I couldnt imagine doing it w a single.
Our sailboat was comfortable in 15-20' seas. And we saw them more than once. While either the KK or the N can handle these seas, it will not be comfortable. And if an engine quits (and you only have one, maybe) or you blow your hydraulics and loose stabilization, you are in a precarious position.
I dont mean to be rude, but most of the folks who buy an ocean going trawler with the intention of crossing oceans, have never crossed an ocean, or even part of one. Once they do a little offshore work, they realize maybe its not so much fun. Once they grasp the complexity, the experience required, and the cost, they think twice.
I would take a guess and suggest, all added up, it is cheaper to ship a boat than drive it across on its own bottom, considering the redundancy needed, the spares inventory, crew, fuel, etc.
Try this question on the forum: "For all of you with at least 10,000 hours of cruising, and at least a dozen multi-night coastal passages, how many of you have ever, or will ever, or even want to, cross an ocean?"
I say all this, because you may be basing so much of your selection criteria on the relatively short ocean crossing phase. Meanwhile, you will be living aboard full time. So that brings up a couple of other items from your list.
Big Fridge. More important is a second deep freezer. For off the grid cruising, I use 30 days self sufficiency for planning purposes. Food, water, fuel, etc. For ocean going travel you might need to make that 45 days. We fish a lot.
Mid-ship master. Why? It may be more comfortable offshore, but only if it is oriented fore and aft. But if you are travelling in the tropics it will necessitate running the AC every night when you sleep. If you plan lots of genset running, then no problem, but there is little or no ventilation mid ship, compared to the fwd. berth. We never run our ac except in marinas. We live aboard full time, log about 500 hrs a year, and we anchor out in the Bahamas a lot. When we are offshore, I sleep in the guest berth, mid ship. Maybe 1o nights a year. The rest of the time we enjoy the tropical breeze in the forward berth.
Hiring a Captain. If you start out with a big boat, likely your insurer will require a captain for a period of time, and for all offshore work for the first year or so.
It takes more learning than just how to drive the boat. Being able to maintain all the systems, which is essential for your plans, requires lots of experience. Lots. Sure, you are handy, and an engineer. lots of us are engineers. It still takes years to learn enough to be able to fix everything when off the grid. And it isnt so much the skill to fix something, it is the skill to be able to diagnose the failure to begin with.
I would suggest you consider hiring an experienced consultant before you buy anything. Knowing whether a boat has all the systems and redundancy for offshore, off the grid travel, is not something you will glean from the internet. And configuring a new boat, be it KKY or N, is the same. How best to implement back up systems and redundancy requires lots of experience. It is easy, if you arent careful, to end up with a boat that is so complex it never leaves the yard because something is always broken.

respectfully,
greg

Hi Greg,

This is a superb post.

My wife and I own a Fleming 55, and originally had the idea of crossing the Atlantic in her. Yes, i did the Cummins technical course so I could service the engines myself, and yes, over the 16 years I've owned the boat, I've come to know the systems inside out and carry a mountain of spares. But, and it's a big but, having encountered some nasty emotional seas there's no way I'd now ever consider crossing an ocean. This feeling is amplified by talking with those who have, and hearing of their nasty experiences, let alone they'd never realised what an exhausting endurance run a crossing would be.

On the other hand, there are those (very few) people who have done it and would do it again.

Would I choose a Fleming to cross an ocean? No. For me, there are too many potential weak areas in the design to cope with the 'what ifs'. Strength-wise and build-wise, it would have to be Nordhavn.

 

[Simi 60]

I'd happily cross oceans if you did a non direct route stopping at spots every 3 to 4 days and waiting for the next weather window.

I have done Brisbane to New Caledonia and Vanuatu several times (1000+ nm) over the years and with patience, have always managed to pick a good weather window on sailing vessels, power catamarans and full displacement trawlers with zero stabilisers.

I see no reason why it couldn't be done leapfrogging across.

 

[twistedtree]

Not sure what you're referring to with "Near Shore ". The USCG requirements which I linked, list "Near Costal" as 100 miles offshore. Unless you are referring to further endorsements, vessels over 100 tons, or international voyages, the requirements were as I specified out to 100 miles.

Ted

Edit: This part is correct
180 days over 51T or 360 days over 34T

From the USCG site:

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/nmc/charter_boat_captain/

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_15_web.pdf

Sorry, I meant "near coastal". But that's different from Oceans, with different requirements. That was my point. 100T Inland, Near Coastal, and Oceans are three different level tickets with some significant differences in requirements.



The other piece missing from your list for a 100T Near Coastal is that 360 of the 720 days need to be outside the "Boundary Line", which is a demarcation line defined by the CG - not to be confused with the Inland vs International COLREGS lines. The point is that to get the Near Coastal endorsement, as opposed to an Inland endorsement, you need a good chunk of time operating "out there". The for Oceans you need even more time "outside", and a big chunk of your time needs to be as a licenses master or mate.

 

[O C Diver]

Sorry, I meant "near coastal". But that's different from Oceans, with different requirements. That was my point. 100T Inland, Near Coastal, and Oceans are three different level tickets with some significant differences in requirements.



The other piece missing from your list for a 100T Near Coastal is that 360 of the 720 days need to be outside the "Boundary Line", which is a demarcation line defined by the CG - not to be confused with the Inland vs International COLREGS lines. The point is that to get the Near Coastal endorsement, as opposed to an Inland endorsement, you need a good chunk of time operating "out there". The for Oceans you need even more time "outside", and a big chunk of your time needs to be as a licenses master or mate.

The purpose of my original post was to clarify that there was a great deal of sea time involved in getting a license, not just passing a test, and did link the further requirements. The OP made no mention of the specific license he was studying for.

You are correct that I didn't mention time outside the line of demarcation. It's been more than 30 years since I went through the licensing process and tend to only focus on renewals for my masters license.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

A few years ago Steve Dashew was addressing a question regarding bad weather and FPB design. In summary, he said he and Linda successfully avoid bad weather by utilizing sound decisions, boat speed and good weather routing. He cites lots of examples.

To have 10 to 12 knots transoceanic cruising speed with +4,000 mile range is such a plus.

 

[dutch-barge]

None of the above. Consider Steve Dashew design for power boat. His website has a ton of informative articles and interesting videos.

Regardless, you. Are over prepping for this thinking you're going to bashing into headseas constantly and need to mitigate risk. I can feel the PAE sales people salivating from here.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2014/circa-marine-fpb64-3096510/

www.setsail.com

unfortunately... none will be built anymore

also read Jim's blog. wwww.mvdirona.com...automation, redundancy, automation, redundancy

 

[AnsleyS]

There is a very nice Symbol 42 for sale is Florida. This is plenty big enough for two to run and comfortable for two couples.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2002/symbol-sundeck-trawler-3616308/

In my experience an annual running expense of about ten percent of purchase price is reasonable with out any paid crew.

 

[Pgitug]

Congratulations on your up coming adventures. Because you are an electrical controls engineer I would discourage you from buying a small vessel now and a 65-75’ vessel later. You know what you want. You understand the learning curve process and you will find maintaining a vessel that has been well cared for enjoyable.
You are correct that a used boat with 2000 or fewer hours would be a good purchase choice if it was well cared for. The extras needed would already be on the vessel and working well. Larger used vessels have a much smaller market than say 50’ vessels, meaning you can get a better deal on a larger one than a smaller one.
A Get Home engine or twin engines are great plan. But don’t make an assumption that with twins you can run one engine at a time. Most transmissions don’t free wheel without doing damage.
Make sure you get a professional survey whether you buy a used boat or a new boat. Include a surveyor for the hull, electrical and a third for mechanical.
When The two of you are looking at used boats arrive in the morning with a bag lunch. Spend the entire day moving about the boat and “Feeling” how it would be to live aboard. If the broker or owner has an issue with that then move on.
The boat I purchased I lived on for five days before I decided to buy it. It’s not that unusual.
Have fun during the process. Enjoy!
Cheers!

 

[Panacea Dream]

Have enjoyed reading this thread and all the wonderful expertise. Would suggest you look at the website Mobius.World and connecting with Wayne. I think he may be building the kind of boat you might want to consider. His XPM78 is well designed and engineered to travel the world. Good luck in your adventure.
Cheers
Stan

 

[Steve DAntonio]

We intend to cross both and beyond. This will be my last voyage and I want to explore every port, passage and country my ship will take me.

I don't have endless money but properly managed, we can sustain the fees associated with this kind of travel. We all want to stretch a dollar and fuel cost and berthing at certain ports i hope to find advice here.

All three are venerable builders with lots of experience and hulls under their belts. I have assisted clients in purchasing all three brands, and for the most part they are happily cruising aboard them, couples and families, for tens of thousands of miles.

I've been to the yards that build all of these vessel on multiple occasions, most recently just earlier this month, in Taiwan and China, they are capable and savvy, with some notable differences. I recently published an editorial about building in Asia here
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/flooding-vs-siphoning/

Strictly speaking, while very seaworthy, Fleming does not make an ocean-crossing vessel, there was a time, if asked, Tony Fleming would say, 'if you want to cross oceans buy a Nordhavn'. I've written about passages I've made aboard Flemings, almost all all including open ocean passages, some of which you can read here.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/.../10/Norway-Passage-Nikita-YTG0718_FEA2-V1.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Alaska-YTG0717-V6.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Fleming-65.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FLEMING-58.pdf

Again, they are very capable sea boats, I've bene in conditions aboard Flemings I'd rather not repeat, they are solid and capable. Flemings have made ocean crossings, it's simply not their forte.

Nordhavn, on the other hand, does build purpose-made ocean-crossing vessels, I suspect more Nordhavns have circumnavigated and crossed the Atlantic and Pacific, and gone to the Arctic and Antarctic, than any other production power vessel. I've made many blue water passages aboard Nordhavns, including above the Arctic Circle, two of which are covered here...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Greenland-The-Frozen-Coast.pdf

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/...8/07/YTG0818_FEA4_PolarAdventure-Svalbard.pdf

While Kadey Krogens have crossed oceans, they are more akin to Fleming when it comes to cruising range and style, albeit it slower, most KKY owners make near or inshore passages. Most KKY's are single screw.

I haven't written about passages aboard Kadey Krogens only because I have been invited on any passages;-)

Perhaps the most important distinction is the hull types, (excepting their few planing models) KKY and Nordhavn are full displacement, while Fleming is semi-planing. This has two important effects.

One, your hull speed is limited by the vessel's length, so the KKY and Nordhavn cannot exceed this speed, depending on length typically between 6 and 9 knots. The Fleming can plane, partially, so its top speed could, depending on the model, be in the high teens, at which it will consume fuel at a high rate. The Fleming can, of course travel at displacement speed, efficiently, and that's how most operate. In all the miles I've traveled aboard Tony Fleming's Venture, and other Flemings of every model, other thna while on sea trials, virtually every mile was at displacement speed or slightly higher, perhaps 9-11 knots at most. Those few extra knots can make a big difference when traveling long distance.

Two, and this is an insidious difference that is often overlooked by buyers, displacement vessels can be loaded down with lots of gear and fuel, they are volume-rich, and they are designed to support it, and it has little effect on their performance or waterline. Planing vessels have less volume for storage, and added weight does affect performance, albeit less at displacement speeds, and the waterline and boot stripe begin to become one when heavily loaded, so if you are a gear hog, this should be taken into consideration.

Fleming participates in the ABYC/NMMA standards compliance program, which means the vessel is certified to meet a series of the most critical ABYC Standards.

Nordhavn does not participate in this program, however, in my experience they do go on the record to say they meet the most important standards, including electrical, fuel, propulsion, LP gas, batteries etc.

KKY also does not participate in the ABYC/NMMA compliance program. If you are having one built a discussion regarding ABYC compliance would be well worth having. I have found them willing to agree to meet most standards.
If you mentioned whether you were planning on new vs. used I missed it.

More on this subject here https://issuu.com/spinsheetpublishingcompany/docs/nov_pt_2016/50

Finally, this two part article will give you a series of subjects to consider in the pre-evaluation process.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/

Happy hunting.

 

[Peterlbwatson]

Travel vessel

Greetings all, I am new here and just posted a small introduction in the welcome area about us but will elaborate here.
My wife and I are retiring in 3 years and we have decided to purchase a trawler to travel the world in. This will be a full time live aboard lifestyle. This decision has been in the making for the last 2 years and after a lot of study, we are approaching the point where I need to draw on the vast ocean of knowledge and experience I have been reading here to pick our trawler.
We have narrowed down our picks to these three trawlers. Nordhavn seems to dominate the market in PR but consider the owners claim to have a Hummer of the sea, Tony Flemings Venture travels around the world and their followers speak for a family of many, and the Kady Krogen owners with nothing but praise for their decision to own a trawler that serves as the best living space trawler to call home. It comes down to what we want, need and can afford for our adventure to circumnavigate the world.
I am a retiring Electrical Controls Engineer so my thinking is purchasing the right tool for the job. So I will lay out the project much like I do as a project manager to the team.
Mission: circumnavigate the world in all weather conditions and anchorages from the Caribbean shallows to the deep waters of Pacific / Atlantic crossings. (In style and comfort).
Budget: 1-3 million. Time is 3-4 years before purchase. Persons are John & Carol husband wife team and Snoopy our furry son. We are shopping for a 2-person crew either family or professional crew.
Ok first question; Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen. I am leaning towards the Nordhavn because I like the protected prop. The keel wraps itself above and under the screw. Touching bottom does not get near the prop. I’m not fond of a one engine boat but I am looking at new vs used.
Next question. New vs used. This is a struggle I am currently experiencing. If you can afford it would you buy new or used? In cars, I have found you get the best deal if you buy a slightly used car that someone just couldn’t pay for or maybe it was a demo model with little millage. Everyone knows once you drive a new car off the lot it’s value just dropped thousands of dollars. So I ask: Is it the same for yachts? If any of these trawlers had 2000 hours use, I would consider them as slightly used but still has the new boat smell. Will the bank feel the same?
Our experience; Almost none. I have power boat and sailboat experience but nothing like this purchase. I’m a quick study and I have had a year of navigation and Captain license classes and my wife and I will study towards our captain’s license before purchasing. But that is why we are here. A lot of owners of these yachts have a story we want to hear. Why do you own them? What are the pros and cons of the choice you made?
A new purchase comes with a lot of company support and sea trials with experts from the factory. We plan on hiring a captain for waters we are not comfortable with and occasionally a crew when we are pampering ourselves. Face it, adventure is fun until it becomes too much work. Let someone else vacuum up the dog hair from stem to stern. A used boat will have support as well but it will have to have the qualities we want.
1. Stand up engine room
2. King bed located mid ship
3. Giant Fridge
4. Spacious fishing platform and cleaning station
5. Water-tight doors especially to the engine room
6. Protected prop from ice, rocks and logs
7. Redundancy Redundancy Redundancy
8. Water maker
Last question which narrows down the trawler is single engine verses twin engines. We are looking at a length of 60 -75 feet for comfort in heavy seas. This may be excessive and we could be talked down to 50. In the next years we will be on board checking out these lengths during bad weather. The downside with over 50 feet is the lack of port accommodations and cost of berthing. I’m not Bill Gates but I can chase Tony Fleming around for a little while. Then it’s Holiday Inn for us.

Having travelled the world twice I would really consider a Dashew 64 or 70 for what you want to do.

 

[epearn1]

Magneto,
I have a 2007 Selene 43. My annual costs including Boat payment (huge variable based on amount financed), slip fees, insurance, bottom cleaning (including zink replacements), monthly boat washes, and escrowed bottom paint account is well south of $75K per year. The amount we spend in monthly slip fees could easily be substituted for fuel costs and some marina time when traveling.

You mentioned Mermaid Monster, Brooke Palmer posts on facebook regularly and I'm sure she could assist you with any questions you may have concerning their annual costs. If you IM me, I could provide you with her email address.

 

[BrianSmith]

I strongly recommend you check out www.mvdirona.com, the blogsite of James and Jennifer Hamilton, who have now been around the world (and then some) on their Nordhavn 52. Their site is an absolute treasure trove of information that's likely to be incredibly relevant to you and your journey - starting now, before you even buy the boat.

 

[Magneto]

Thank you for all this experience and advice. Instead of quoting the last several posts, let me just say I agree with most of your recommendations. I’m the 1st to admit we have not spent any time at sea on any of these boats other than pleasure fishing in the Gulf Stream. We WILL have spent plenty of time on these and other like boats before we purchase. That’s the reason we are beginning planning this early. It will take some time to confirm ocean crossing will be a large part of our plans. Even if it is only once, I would want it to be in a N52 or larger rather than a coastal cruiser.

Alaska, Thailand, Fiji & Tahiti, and from the Mediterranean to the UK (for starters). Those are the places we want to travel by sea to. Because of the input from all on this thread and the research we’ve compiled to this point, we believe the Nordhavn 52 or larger is the best fit for the job. I believe the Nordhavn series fits what we want to accomplish. Does it make it a better boat than the others? No. Just maybe the right tool for the job. The boat will be our home so it needs to sing to us when we step aboard but I don’t want to waste our time on interiors in boats that won’t go where we want to go and safely.

That’s what we are accomplishing with this thread. When we go to Trawler Fest 2020 in Florida during March, we will take this arsenal of knowledge all of you have helped us with and focus on the N and KK but keep an open mind to others.

New vs Used? I mentioned earlier I believe the sweet spot is to buy a boat about 2-4 years old properly maintained. We can always add anything we want after the sale.

I’m a hands on person and have rebuilt car engines in my youth so we will take classes on whatever engine we have so that we can make repairs on it ourselves. Most of the repairs and maintenance we can handle while farming out the hull scraping and any scuba work. One post said they saved over $1000 replacing their prop themselves. Does that require a snorkel? Anything outside of that I can afford to take care of.

Another asked about my classes toward a captain’s license. I’m not interested in a license. Just the classes. We take seamanship classes, study charting, read and God bless YouTube. In other words, if we don’t know how to do it, we will find out. MV Dirona has a lot of great repair and replace videos. Love it. If fact I have watched so much boat porn for the last year, I need to go into rehab.

Cheers and Happy New Year

 

[Simi 60]

Most of the repairs and maintenance we can handle while farming out the hull scraping and any scuba work. One post said they saved over $1000 replacing their prop themselves. Does that require a snorkel?

Hookah
Simple and cheap to make
Spent over an hour standing on the bottom doing work yesterday.

Replacing a prop? I think that's a smaller boat thing.
No way in the world I could ever replace a prop, if one was available, without an underwater crane and help from international rescue
Ours is over 4 ft in diameter.

Anything outside of that I can afford to take care of.

As long as you are somewhere that has divers willing and able to do it.
9x out of 10 you won't be.
Rope, rice bag, fish trap around prop on passage being a prime example.

 

[clroehm]

i would highly recommend you look at a Selene. We looked at all the models you have and are very glad we choose Selene, the stability and quality of build is very impressive!!

 

[thataway]

First, Magneto for a first time type of poster and passage maker want to be, your are already well on your way. I certainly would study the Set Sail Web site by Steve Dashew, and also really all of Ken Williams' as well as the other Nordhavn owner's blog.

Second, this is one of the best discussions I have seen on this forum, with a lot of good information.

I am apparently one of the few who has made multi transoceanic crossings and enjoyed them--(or I would have not repeated them). Despite the fact I have been skippering boats for 70 years and have over 200,000 offshore miles, on some boats I get sea sick the first night. (All this has been in sail boats of various sosrts. I don't like boats with a snappy roll. The two boats I have owned which I made long passages on were slow rollers, and I never got sea sick.)

I find the first night or two on a passage is the hardest. It takes that much time for your body to adjust to the watch standing and the cycles of constantly voyaging. For us (including my wife) often the end of the voyage is somewhat anticlimactic. We have enjoyed the leisure of reading, listening to music and watch standing. Being one with the sea and rhythm of the vessel is important.

Giant Refrigerator. I had a wonderful refrigeration system thanks to a dock neighbor who was throwing out his large eutectic holding plate, large compressor refrigerator and freezer on a DeFever LRC, which had just come from Florida to Calif. on its own bottom. I bought it for $100, and then added an engine driven compressor to the 220V AC compressor. Even though our pilot house motor sailer was almost new, I tore out the refrigeration and some other areas, to put a holding plate system which would require only a few hours a day of either generator or main engine time. We had a 15 cu ft freezer and a 12.5 cu ft. refrigerator. My wife would pre-cook and freeze meals for several months at a time. The insulation we made was 6" and sealed for the freezer and 4" and sealed for the refrigerator.

Room in the boatIt has been eluded to somewhat in another post, but even in a stabilized boat there is a risk of being thrown about in heavy seas. There should be good hand grips, as well as overhead railings in the open spaces, so you don't fall.

Guests aboard/crewWe took guests on passage, but for the most part they had to be experienced sailors. If you leave land and a guest is unhappy, or it turns out is a closet alcoholic, let alone mentally unstable (we have seen that on other's boats), it can be a night mare. It is a real treat to have more than two people on the vessel for passage making. But only if they are capable of standing watch! (Many of my early voyages were on racing boats where there was a full and well known crew--even then problems can occur). We never had professional crew (boat was 62' LOA, 54' on deck, pilot house sailboat). The couple who was going to join us on passage from Bermuda to Azores, contacted us at the last minute, and had to cancel for medical reasons. We debated about hiring crew--there were plenty available. But our reasoning was that if we had difficulty how would that crew react? We knew how we reacted. It was a good choice. We were caught in 3 days of over 60 knots of wind, and breaking seas to go with that. Little sleep, some water intrusion and some minor damages. What if the crew was not competent or became frightened?

Your own space Even the best of marriages can suffer if each person cannot have a place they can call their own, and have some respite. You are already living in a relatively small RV and know what that type of life involves, except you cannot take a walk...

DogWe have voyaged with dogs. There are some places which will not allow your dog at all. Others the dog may be subject to quarantine. The dogs can also get motion sickness. Be sure the dog has its own secure (physical den type where they can retreat)space. Doing duty, can be a problem. First mistake we made was that we had arranged to have the pee/poop area in the cockpit with astro turf, and a good wash down system. The dog would have no part of skiing its living space. Moving the turf to the foredeck resolved this problem. Puppy training pads also are good for adult dogs. We had a safety harness for the dog, which could be clipped onto backlines.

Engine room--include good work bench. We had a small MIG welder, a drill press, a grinder and a number of smaller power tools--all used during the course of voyages.

Redundancy , equally important is spare parts and knowledge to fix or bypass systems which may fail. An example we carried different sizes of copper tubing and compression fittings as sell as other hoses. Far better to fabricate a hose or line, than not be able to run a vital system or wait for a month a "Factory Part" to be delivered--and maybe find out it does not fit.

I love modern technology, but have simple back up for vital systems is important. For example a single lightning strike may take out all of your navigation, as well as some of the electrical appliances. We were once asked by a large freighter what their position was. They had a lightning strike take out all of their navigation systems!. We kept a hand held GPS and a hand held VHF radio in a sealed steel ammo box well isolated, just in case.

Trying the boat out before a voyage We lived in S. Calif. and would sail any "new to us" boat up to Point Conception, where we were likely to encounter winds close to 50 knots and heavy seas to see how both the boat, and we would perform. We would stay in that environment for several days. It would show weak sports if there were any--and we were not too far from getting back to where we could have help repairing systems if necessary.

Enjoy the process. I am of the group who says considering buying the size you are going to voyage in. It will take too long to learn the systems, once you are ready to go. Sorry, but doing the "loop" does not simulate an offshore voyage. (we have done most of the loop both in large and small boats). A boat like the Symbol 42 (I owned one--great boat for coastal cruising--mine had twin screws) does not prepare you for a 55 foot Nordhavn. We had no problem handling a 62 foot LOA boat by the two of us--single screw and no bow thruster. There are "tricks" to give safe maneuvering. Granted we had a lot of sea time and experience before that boat. You will not know all you need to know before you leave--but probably 95%.