Long Range Cruising - How big is too big?

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One of my favorite sailing blogs is "Sailing Florence" about a young British couple sailing the world in a 37. And that's a sailboat of course, so just a small fraction of the usable space of our two-deck, 14' beam power boat with 7' ceilings in the salon. They've sailed 35,000 miles in that thing. Now of course they're younger and more flexible and don't demand the creature comforts like we do now, but whenever I think about trading up to something bigger, I keep them in mind.

My father was also a boat broker and captained and managed bigger boats for rich guys for a while. He loved to tell me how expensive it was for every maintenance task. Just changed a hose clamp, had to remove the hydraulic swim platform that held two jet-ski cradles for access, cost $9,000!!
 
+1 Peter. Don’t get owned by your processions. On land or sea. There’s a dynamic between creature comforts or even safety equipment where expense, need to service and space is in conflict with a easy going less stress life.
Friendly with a 0.0%er. He sold his yacht. Fired his captain, mate, cook and engineer. Has a much smaller one off built for him. Met him while cruising. He said he was happier.
 
+1 Peter. Don’t get owned by your processions. On land or sea. There’s a dynamic between creature comforts or even safety equipment where expense, need to service and space is in conflict with a easy going less stress life.
Friendly with a 0.0%er. He sold his yacht. Fired his captain, mate, cook and engineer. Has a much smaller one off built for him. Met him while cruising. He said he was happier.

Sadly they were just crew to him. Our crew is family, much loved and cherished. Can't imagine ever firing any of them or being happier with them gone.

I followed a rule all my original business life in separating work and pleasure and I see boat and yacht owners continuing the same, treating crew as strictly staff and separating them in that regard. In starting our business in South Florida our key employees were our best friends and our crew is like nieces and nephews and cousins or brothers or uncles and aunts. I've really questioned all those years of not socializing outside the work place with co-workers and wondered what relationships might have developed. I think back to olden times when employers and their workers were best friends. Crew to us is just friends aboard who we happen to pay to work while they join us cruising.

I advise anyone getting into sizes of boats requiring crew to choose not just an employee but a housemate or roommate. You'll be living together. Keep that perspective and you'll have a relationship and loyalty that works. Treat them as just workers, replaceable at will, minimum loyalty either way, and I don't see it working.

Today we break every rule of employer vs employee I'd followed for decades. Still learning but sure is fun doing it this way.
 
I've heard it said that yachts in the 65-85 foot range are an awkward size. Too big for owner-operator, too small for crew (squarely in the category of "Rich Folk Problems"). Obviously the actual length depends, but I think the concept is valid. If you're in this bracket, you have to decide if you're like BandB where it's an extended family affair with crew. If not, how you deal with crew on a smallish boat.

Paul Dejoria, a billionaire from a couple businesses including a high end tequila, wanted a boat that he could actually enjoy without crew. So he spent $2m restoring a 1968 57 foot Chris Craft Connie. My type of guy.

https://robbreport.com/motors/marine/boating-in-the-stars-230038/

Having made many, many deliveries with owners aboard, I can tell you that it's a bit awkward, at least for me. You stop somewhere and the owner and his wife want to go out to dinner and I'd typically find a reason not to go and give them their time. On the flip side, I've stayed in touch with several owners over the years and visited their homes.

I'm a roll-your-own type of guy. Back in my sailing days I joined friends on a couple crewed charters. As nice as they were, I strongly prefer bareboat. I'm just not a crew guy. For folks looking at larger boats, something you have to decide for yourself

Peter
 
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Back in the old Trawlers & Trawlering days, there was a guy who cruised a Westsail 32 sailboat. His signature block was "A small boat and a suitcase full of money beats a big boat tied to a bank."

Peter
Every Sunday afternoon as I see all the shiny boats head back to their marina berth I think the same - Have fun at work Monday;)
 
Sadly they were just crew to him. Our crew is family, much loved and cherished. Can't imagine ever firing any of them or being happier with them gone.

I followed a rule all my original business life in separating work and pleasure and I see boat and yacht owners continuing the same, treating crew as strictly staff and separating them in that regard. In starting our business in South Florida our key employees were our best friends and our crew is like nieces and nephews and cousins or brothers or uncles and aunts. I've really questioned all those years of not socializing outside the work place with co-workers and wondered what relationships might have developed. I think back to olden times when employers and their workers were best friends. Crew to us is just friends aboard who we happen to pay to work while they join us cruising.

I advise anyone getting into sizes of boats requiring crew to choose not just an employee but a housemate or roommate. You'll be living together. Keep that perspective and you'll have a relationship and loyalty that works. Treat them as just workers, replaceable at will, minimum loyalty either way, and I don't see it working.

Today we break every rule of employer vs employee I'd followed for decades. Still learning but sure is fun doing it this way.

That’s not my experience, where each was a friendly professional relationship, but there were clear boundaries. The crew most often went with the boats when they were sold actually.
 
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That’s not my experience, where each was a friendly professional relationship, but there were clear boundaries. The crew most often went with the boats when they were sold actually.

Our crew isn't tied to a specific boat, tied to us. Hiring a crew for a single run vs. full time crew is very different and I'm not saying for a moment that what works for us will work for all.

We go out for a nice fancy dinner and everyone comes with us, guests and crew. We might occasionally go out for an escape, just the two of us, but that's rare. Sightseeing is sometimes all together and sometimes by interest. Last Friday, we all went sailing on a bareboat charter. Yesterday, a beautiful day with all of us running around Cape Charles. It's one of our favorite stops on the East Coast and we'll likely double down on the way back south.

I'm just simply stating that to spend as much time as you might with crew, for us it would have to become personal, not all business. I once could have kept the separation. My wife never could have done so and I've learned her way.

I could not deal with the crew turnover many experience or many of the issues. We do select carefully based on skills and on personality and character. We don't allow drinking and smoking and cuts down on many problems.

I should point out we have good friends who do have a more formal boat situation. They though still have long term close relationships, just don't socialize together nor eat together on board. Much of the time it's the two of them and 8 crew members and they eat alone while the crew members eat in the crew lounge. Still personal though as they'd do anything in the world for any of their crew and a couple have been with them over 25 years.

Everyone has to figure out what works for them.

Advice for one needing one crew person for a 70' boat: Don't go for convenience. Hire full time and someone you can enjoy as a housemate. Don't hire someone who has 30 years experience, but hire someone for whom it's a new career move they're ready for. Perhaps they don't know it all but know how to learn it all, but they can be happy captaining a boat that size and being a one person crew. They won't mind doing a wash down or any other duties required. We see many hiring too much experience which means either they're just passing through or they can't keep a job.
 
One of my favorite sailing blogs is "Sailing Florence" about a young British couple sailing the world in a 37. And that's a sailboat of course, so just a small fraction of the usable space of our two-deck, 14' beam power boat with 7' ceilings in the salon. They've sailed 35,000 miles in that thing. Now of course they're younger and more flexible and don't demand the creature comforts like we do now, but whenever I think about trading up to something bigger, I keep them in mind.

Well, having owned a few under 40ft monos and built a larger catamaran and put around 50,000nm on it I can understand that way of thinking
It worked for us - until it didn't.

As you age you tend to want more comfort and as you cruise further afield away from marinas you need to be able to carry more stuff,
There was the next boat, but that proved not to be there yet
Now we have what we have......pretty close but still not quite.

My father was also a boat broker and captained and managed bigger boats for rich guys for a while. He loved to tell me how expensive it was for every maintenance task. Just changed a hose clamp, had to remove the hydraulic swim platform that held two jet-ski cradles for access, cost $9,000!!
It's expensive for rich guys and or clueless guys

Us poorer guys learn how to drive a screw driver and a spanner.
Profit.

We know a couple who recently paid around $60,000 for what I thought was a pretty ordinary paint job on a 42ft catamaran - shockingly overcharged in my eyes but they were happy

At around the same time we were out and, had the white on our hull up to the cap rail painted.
2 guys, a scissor lift, sanding and roll and tip enamel cost around $5000 on a 60fter
Sure, it won't last as long but in 4 years time she'll get another one and still enough left over coin for 10 more
 
Our crew isn't tied to a specific boat, tied to us. Hiring a crew for a single run vs. full time crew is very different and I'm not saying for a moment that what works for us will work for all.

We go out for a nice fancy dinner and everyone comes with us, guests and crew. We might occasionally go out for an escape, just the two of us, but that's rare. Sightseeing is sometimes all together and sometimes by interest. Last Friday, we all went sailing on a bareboat charter. Yesterday, a beautiful day with all of us running around Cape Charles. It's one of our favorite stops on the East Coast and we'll likely double down on the way back south.

I'm just simply stating that to spend as much time as you might with crew, for us it would have to become personal, not all business. I once could have kept the separation. My wife never could have done so and I've learned her way.

I could not deal with the crew turnover many experience or many of the issues. We do select carefully based on skills and on personality and character. We don't allow drinking and smoking and cuts down on many problems.

I should point out we have good friends who do have a more formal boat situation. They though still have long term close relationships, just don't socialize together nor eat together on board. Much of the time it's the two of them and 8 crew members and they eat alone while the crew members eat in the crew lounge. Still personal though as they'd do anything in the world for any of their crew and a couple have been with them over 25 years.

Everyone has to figure out what works for them.

Advice for one needing one crew person for a 70' boat: Don't go for convenience. Hire full time and someone you can enjoy as a housemate. Don't hire someone who has 30 years experience, but hire someone for whom it's a new career move they're ready for. Perhaps they don't know it all but know how to learn it all, but they can be happy captaining a boat that size and being a one person crew. They won't mind doing a wash down or any other duties required. We see many hiring too much experience which means either they're just passing through or they can't keep a job.

I’m talking larger more professionally crewed boats. Crews generally go with the boats when they are sold. I know very few counter examples except when Russians would buy a boat there would be turnover.
 
I’m talking larger more professionally crewed boats. Crews generally go with the boats when they are sold. I know very few counter examples except when Russians would buy a boat there would be turnover.

Are you saying our crews aren't professional? Most owners I know keep their crews as they sell only when moving to their next boat. Crew doesn't go with the boat.
 
Are you saying our crews aren't professional? Most owners I know keep their crews as they sell only when moving to their next boat. Crew doesn't go with the boat.

No I’m not saying or implying that. My examples are different and aren’t relevant to this thread obviously, so I shouldn’t have mentioned it. These boats crews were run as a company would, not a family. But they involve crews of 15 to 60. For example, someone I know just bought a boat two months ago and took on all 15 crew. The only example I know of where it didn’t happen is when Abramovich replaced most of a 40 person crew with Russians relatively soon after he made a purchase. Different examples I guess.

I have no crew, just myself so I can’t relate! If I did, I would certainly follow your advice as it seems wise.
 
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One o my closest friends is ex USN who as a second career ran mega yachts. From talking with him they divide into several groups.
One are clearly businesses. Available for sale and charter from the moment they are built or bought. Crew other than captain, mate(s) and cook have frequent turnover. White South Africans without tattoos are preferred. He didn’t like being captain of boats that large. Doing spread sheets, handling logistics, dealing with charters, and hiring and firing . He, his wife (cook) and engineer usually went with the boat for a year or so including time he and the next captain were both on the the boat. Other than that even divid if he followed the owner or boat. Although he was frequently asked to move up to bigger yachts for more money he decided to leave the >100’ crowd and go to the 60-80’ crowd. Then always have three (captain, mate , and cook) with one or more also being engineer and second mate but often 3-6 total crew. If near 60’ then two. Him and his bride. Still run as a business but much less stressful. Having 15-20 employees is a significant business anyway you slice it.
He found owners also divid into groups. Some actually cruise. Others make short visits after boat arrives at a new cruising grounds. Some have no involvement in running the boat. Others become licensed captains themselves (still allowed him to run the boat).
People are different regardless of resources so different folks different boats.
 
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Here are some typical crew sizes.

Under 60' = 1
60-80' = 2
80-90' = 3
90-105' = 4
105-120' = 5
125-140' = 7
150-160' = 9
165-180' = 11
180-200' = 13
200-250' = 18
250-300' = 26
300-350' = 33
400-500' = 55

At the upper levels though crew size may vary widely based on the boat and nature of use. The largest size I can relate to at all is 160-170' or so which is a popular size as it just squeaks under the 500 Ton ITC.

A good reflection of a builder's thoughts on crew are the crew cabins available. Now, I say available by their definition as often it would be very uncomfortable to fill them.

Interestingly, at the 125' and under, you typically find 1 crew member for every 2 guests or so. Then it slowly starts reversing and by the time you reach 200', you'll find two crew members per guest.

In my opinion, although I've never been on a boat over 200', at that size it becomes less like a boat and more like a hotel and the crew and service reflect it. I can't imagine maintaining the relationship we have with crew in boats that size. There it's strictly paid staff other than perhaps 1 to 3 crew members.

I'm going to ignore the over 500 Tons for a moment and then give some accommodations of a couple of builders I'm very familiar with.

Westport (including former Pacific Mariner)
65'-6 Sleep, 2 Crew
85'-8 Sleep, 3 Crew
112'-8 Sleep, 5 Crew
117' and 125'-10 Sleep, 5 Crew
130'-10 Sleep, 7 Crew
172'-12 Sleep, 12 Crew

Sunseeker
55'-6 Sleep, 1 Crew
68'-8 Sleep, 2 Crew
76'-8 Sleep, 3 Crew
100'-10 Sleep, 5 Crew
131'-12 Sleep, 9 Crew

As you increase in size, the sleeping accommodations for owners and guests increase far more slowly than the crew requirements do.

Another odd paradigm in all this is as the boats increase in size, the owners tend to spend far less time on them. 12 weeks per year is fairly normal for 100' and more and 7 weeks per year is more typical for many.
 
Interesting. Couple questions. Let's take a modest sized 150 motoryacht (vs sail or sport fisher). What would roles would the 9 crew have? At what point is there a dedicated engineer? Does it follow the Below Decks model where much of the crew are sourced through an agency? I assume one of the crew is cook - are they retained full time or contract for a passage or period when owners are aboard?

I remember being side-tied in Panama waiting for a canal transit. There was a 80-foot sport fisher next to me with a pair of crew stringing bait for when the owner arrived. Sure was a beautiful boat. Had mammoth A/C ducts blowing on the fighting chair in the cockpit.

Peter
 
There definitely is a dedicated engineer then at 150’. These larger (100m plus) boats are like resorts, and bigger ones carry masseuse, trainer, dive master, logistics and event coordinator, etc. The captain is basically in charge of everything and does the final hiring, which is often word of mouth recommendation. They are not hired by passage but with the intention of being permanent.

The crew you interact with are most often some of the deckhands around tender and water toy usage, the stewards who are basically waitresses, and the captain for discussing where to reposition and when and the cook. Most of the owner/guest facing staff seem to be Australian or New Zealanders. It’s a tough life too as there is a lot of maintenance constantly being done.

None of the crew on these larger yachts wants to hang out with the owner or guests. They want their own boundaries and down time, plus most are substantially younger. They have to be nice as part of their jobs, and it can be exhausting so why hang out with the boss?
 
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Interesting. Couple questions. Let's take a modest sized 150 motoryacht (vs sail or sport fisher). What would roles would the 9 crew have? At what point is there a dedicated engineer? Does it follow the Below Decks model where much of the crew are sourced through an agency? I assume one of the crew is cook - are they retained full time or contract for a passage or period when owners are aboard?

I remember being side-tied in Panama waiting for a canal transit. There was a 80-foot sport fisher next to me with a pair of crew stringing bait for when the owner arrived. Sure was a beautiful boat. Had mammoth A/C ducts blowing on the fighting chair in the cockpit.

Peter

Typical crew of 9 would be the following: Captain, Officer (also Captain), Deckhand, Junior Deckhand, Chief Engineer, Chief Stew, Second Stew, Junior Stew, Chef.

Dedicated engineer around 115' or so.

Now, most boats in that size range have some sort of management team or group. Often it's people who work for the owner and often somehow involved in the owner's other businesses. Other times it's a private yacht management group. There are yacht management groups that focus on maintenance of smaller yachts, but these groups for this size focus on all aspects from payroll to accounting to shore support services to documentation to staffing. These companies also serve as crew agencies.

The employment nature of the crews varies widely by the amount of owner usage and whether chartered or not. At a minimum, the Captain, Chief Engineer and Chief Stew are full time. On average, of the nine crew members, 4 to 6 are full time. In boats that are in high use, the part time positions would typically be the 2nd deckhand and the 2nd and 3rd stews. Now think about this for a moment. Boat with a $2 million annual budget and they save perhaps $40k by not having full time employees in the three lowest paid positions. Smarter owners and managers rotate crew more when boat isn't in use and provides decent time off.

On boats in heavy usage, Chef's are full time. On light usage boats, it varies. Owners are often very picky about chef's and after experience find that not having full time is a problem. You bring up Below Deck so I'll make a few comments as to how it compares. These are largely based on discussions with our crew and staff who have long careers and have spent considerable time on larger boats before entering semi-retirement. The positions you have on Below Deck are typical, just there you have some crew never seen. The Engineering department on those boats it typically 2 persons and there is another Captain or Officer who actually does most of the helm work. So you might have visible Captain, Chef, 3 deckhands, 3 stews and another 3 not visible for the crew of 11.

Nearly everything you see happen on Below Deck has and does happen, but like all television, never compacted into one cruise or even months of cruises. The crew behavior you observe would never be tolerated by most captains, Bosuns, or Chief Stews. Now, while I would never tolerate it, heavy drinking and sex among crew members is common on many boats. You do see a couple of captains on the show who admit to prior alcohol problems. Now, the crews are chosen for the show and the lack of continuity is more extreme. Addressing deckhands and stews, you've typically have full time Bosuns and Chief Stews so not all new. In the worst situations where there are 5 or 6 positions between the two departments and only 2 are full time, then you'd expect to see most of the problems seen on the show due to both lack of experience and poor quality employees. The best would typically have full time jobs and finding that quality for a few weeks is challenging. That brings us to chefs.

The level of work required of chefs on Below Deck is challenging. You see problems cooking for the crew but many boats that size would have a crew chef or an assistant cook of some type. For charter, they might have temporary chefs, but can't imagine owners who use a boat a lot going that route. Are chefs as problematic as on the show? Of course not. Yes, they may tend to be more emotional than other employees, but there are many very rational, excellent chefs available. On the other hand, most of those would choose being personal chefs in homes to yachts, which is what at least one former Below Deck chef is now doing. In a home, they have space, equipment, and can get help when needed. Being chef with owners on a yacht isn't bad, but for charters it is a very difficult job. Also, some of the galleys on Below Deck are subpar for boats their size.
 
There definitely is a dedicated engineer then at 150’. These larger (100m plus) boats are like resorts, and bigger ones carry masseuse, trainer, dive master, logistics and event coordinator, etc. The captain is basically in charge of everything and does the final hiring, which is often word of mouth recommendation. They are not hired by passage but with the intention of being permanent.

The crew you interact with are most often some of the deckhands around tender and water toy usage, the stewards who are basically waitresses, and the captain for discussing where to reposition and when and the cook. Most of the owner/guest facing staff seem to be Australian or New Zealanders. It’s a tough life too as there is a lot of maintenance constantly being done.

None of the crew on these larger yachts wants to hang out with the owner or guests. They want their own boundaries and down time, plus most are substantially younger. They have to be nice as part of their jobs, and it can be exhausting so why hang out with the boss?

I'd say everything you've written is true for anything over 200'. At that point, it's strictly jobs. They may spend time on the boat with the owner but in completely separate areas, only interacting when performing job duties. That is not the situation I'm addressing in my comments.
 
From what I’m told above is accurate. Beyond my pay grade so for me second hand info. Would say boats actively being chartered tend to have more crew. Both to keep guests entertained but also out of trouble. Not mentioned is security. Some owners keep a security team around them and family at all times. Kidnapping apparently is a concern.
 
I'm wholly unqualified to answer your original question, but I'm not going to let that stop me. :D

When considering "how big is too big?" I would say that "too big" is anything that is larger than your use case and budget requires. Most of this discussion has addressed hull length and LOA as measures of a boat's size, but consider its shape as well. Sure, we're in a trawler forum, so most of the boats here are the same shape (ish), but take a look at the difference between a Kadey Krogen and a Florida Bay Coaster. The latter is going to provide more usable living space in the same length, but maybe its not laid out the way you want for the way you want to use it.

I don't think you mentioned in your OP how you were planning to crew the boat, a subject that's been massively discussed here at length. Our plans, which lack practical experience of any sort, are to buy a boat the two of us can handle ourselves and be happy if we have others on board to help. We want enough boat to make occasional long passages, but not so much boat that it's impractical to use for short trips. Just yesterday we had a discussion of the general impracticality (for us) of crossing to Hawaii. At six knots, that's seventeen days at the helm. Yeesh.

Regarding what sort of boat to buy and reconstruct, have you considered buying an old yacht and rebuilding that? It would give you the experience with every system that you want, but the boat will have been designed for cruising and therefore have the appropriate hull.
 
Reminds me of my old Burger, except this one would be a coastal cruiser, and might not be suitable for his stated purpose.

Nice memories!

Re: the Burger in the ad JD Ray posted, the photos show a steel hull in the ER,
but the description says it is a fiberglass hull. Strange...
 
My point wasn’t about that particular boat, but conceptually similar; not a commercial boat.
 
Re: the Burger in the ad JD Ray posted, the photos show a steel hull in the ER,
but the description says it is a fiberglass hull. Strange...

I didn't notice the ER, but I did notice the description of Fiberglass hull which surprised me given (1) its a Burger which I thought were metal boats (not sure whether steel and/or aluminum; and (2) 1958 vintage - pretty early for a fiberglass boat that size.

Either way, she looks fairly unmolested for her age.

Peter
 
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