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Old 06-10-2020, 02:26 PM   #1
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Keeping the beer cold

We just switched from “sail to steam” And the previous owners of our Jefferson 42 never stayed out on the hook. All the equipment is 120v power. I would like to run the galley Fridge, bar drink cooler and ice maker without always running the genset. I was thinking a large battery bank with inverter and solar to keep them charged. Your thoughts on how many and what size batteries as well as solar panels would be appreciated. I know I could switch out the units to 12v but all this equipment is only a year old so I’ld rather keep it.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:30 PM   #2
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A great reference that will serve you well, and also addresses all your issues in easy to understand language, is Nigel Calder's "Boat Owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" Your subjects are the first thing in the book.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:56 PM   #3
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Inverter

We had, until recently, a 48 ft. vessel with an apartment size refrigerator and an ice maker that ran off of a 2500 watt inverter powered by a 6, L16 Trojan 6 volt batteries run in series. When at anchor, depending on the outside temperatures, we could run the refer and ice maker a 24 7 with only a simple recharge from the generator for a couple of hours a day.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:59 PM   #4
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I’m in the same situation. I have decided to put the money into making the generator quieter so it doesn’t bother us to run it. It’s only going to cost me about $500 total for the exhaust upgrades. Then it’ll cost me about 1/2 gallon an hour.
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Old 06-10-2020, 03:22 PM   #5
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I ran a small apartment size 110V refrigerator with ice maker on a 2500W inverter backed by 6 "6V golf cart" batteries.Very limited use of a 1500W microwave. Generous but not full time use of a 20" box fan. I could usually get 20+ hours from the batteries; 2-3 hour charge from the genset
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Old 06-11-2020, 06:35 AM   #6
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I replaced a boat refrigerator with an apartment refrigerator that runs through the inverter off the battery bank. Below is the link to the thread. Couple of points:

Efficiency is very important and will save you money in batteries. Before you start, get one of the power meters that measure consumption over time (<$30). Run your refrigerator for about a week on it to determine average daily power consumption. This will help you to determine battery bank size and maybe upgrading the refrigerator for a more efficient unit.

Also look at your cruising style to determine if solar makes sense. If you cruise every other day, run the generator to cook, or living in Florida, need to run the air conditioning periodically, you may find as I did that there is more than enough opportunity to recharge the batteries without solar. If you anchor out for extended periods without generator use, solar is a great option.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...tor-41392.html

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Old 06-11-2020, 08:51 AM   #7
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Nothing wrong with what you are thinking. I would actually love to have an AC fridge as every single MFing dual voltage fridge I have ever owned has sucked so badly....currently dealing with issues in my new to me boat. Anyway, realize battery charging profiles. Bulk charge happens quickly...then into absorption. You'll never make it to float in "just a couple of hours generator use". That is where solar comes in. Solar can get that last little bit after you shut down the generator.

Also, Ted makes good points. Think about how you will really cruise the boat. I would never need solar the way I use my boat. I am either running or have the generator running because it is so damn hot down here. Good luck! I think you're on the right track.
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Old 06-11-2020, 12:22 PM   #8
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If one is going to put in a large battery bank and expensive inverter, then he may as well add solar panels as well. With the panels, the system cost should be eligible for the federal tax credit, which I believe is 26% for 2020.

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Old 06-11-2020, 01:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by JLD View Post
If one is going to put in a large battery bank and expensive inverter, then he may as well add solar panels as well. With the panels, the system cost should be eligible for the federal tax credit, which I believe is 26% for 2020.

Jim
He wrote the word "solar" in the OP.
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Old 06-11-2020, 01:51 PM   #10
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First my boat is much smaller than yours but what I have done will address your problem:

1) Okay I lied, this first one I haven't done, not because I don't want to but because my new repowered Merc engine has a problem with replacing the alternator (so Mercury has advised me). The way to solve the problem I have is to add another higher powered alternator, think 140 amp or larger.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, BC and Alaska, we boaters are the king of gunkholing at anchor. Many of us hate generators, I do after using one often in my Winnebago 32 foot motorhome. The only good generator is a dead generator. And all those of you who insist your generator is really quiet, no it isn't. While refitting I wanted to turn my boat into a lean mean cruising machine with no generator.

I don't need to or have for that matter, the big electrical toys like washer and dryer, ice machine (but I have an alternative), etc. But I can run smaller demanding electrical goodies for a short period of time. The tv for a couple of hours, the hair blower set on medium or low for ten minutes, a two slice cheap toaster (usually around 900 watts or less) for ten minutes a day. And occasionally my convection oven, a cheaper one that is rated at 1200 watts, remember this doesn't always draw 1200 watts as it cycles on and off in the hour I can cook a roasting chicken in it (but I usually use the BBQ for this).

2) I have the typical Norcold fridge, not that big with a pathetically small freezer. So I added a Norcold dedicated freezer, not that large but ample for a cruise up to one week of frozen stuff. If I was going longer, I'd have 15 of those blue freezy thingies (impressed with my technical know how?) I would use a large expensive cooler and swap out five of the blue thingies three times a day to get a more storage for longer trips. But you will be fine at the ability to last a week.

My Norcold freezer: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/norc...r-only-def788b

3) I changed out four led acid batteries, relatively new mind you, with 6 Firefly batteries. I could have gone lithium, but when you go lithium its not just the batteries but you have to install a lithium electrical system. Six Firefly batteries is equivalent to twelve leaded acid batteries.

A short blurb on Firefly batteries:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

4) Since I was in refit, I had one inch foam added and surrounding my refrigerator and my freezer.

5) I added three 100 watt panels (would have preferred four, but visually it wouldn't have looked good, so three it was) for solar power. I am hesitant to say how much power will be generated but roughly 30 amps per day per panel, so I should get roughly 90 amps per day on a sunny day. But this varies with weather conditions and north/south location. The more north you go the more sun you get in the summer.

A quick blurb: [Note: not me]

ACTUAL SOLAR POWER GENERATED
So far, we’ve been working with the assumption that a 100 watt solar panel will generate 100 watts of power. But as we noted in Understanding Capacity, it won’t. There are numerous factors that affect the actual amount of solar power generated, from the time of day to the ambient temperature to the cloud cover to the level of pollution.

Fortunately, experts have come up with a rule of thumb. On average, a 100 watt solar panel will generate 30 amp-hours per day. If you need more specifics, you can find quite a few free solar position calculators online, or you can go with the National Renewable Energy Lab’s free solar power energy calculator at http://pvwatts.nrel.gov. It isn’t perfect, but it is remarkably close most of the time.


5) I have added Efoy fuel cell technology, the largest being the 210 Efoy generating which will provide up to 180 amps per day. Because the fuel cells are not cheap, not to bad but prefer to keep the usage down per day, I added the solar to help out. Between the Efoy and solar, if both are going full out, I can generate roughly 270 amps per day.

I use propane where and when I can, so propane stove, BBQ, and I have a propane heater. But I also have diesel heat so the propane is only for times when I need it for whatever dire reason. The diesel heater also heats the hot water.

I equipped my boat thusly so I could also carry out off season boating on the hook. So my Efoy will be used more, less sun for solar with more cloudy and rainy days. Heat so I am comfortable. And a kicker electrical heater to use electricity when I am tied up at a marina.
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgano View Post
He wrote the word "solar" in the OP.
Yes, I know the OP wrote "solar," as my reading skills are goodly!

Quite often, however, when we have these discussions, many folks will opine against adding solar panels. Of course, I recognize that folks use their boats (or even rv's) differently and different systems make more sense depending on how the boat is used.

The point of my post was that if you have even a single panel, it is a system and should be eligible for the federal (and maybe a state) tax credit.

Jim
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:44 PM   #12
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Had the same concern. We have a 120 fridge (very efficient) and an ice maker. Also have an enclosed 9K gen that sits at front of ER, and has a new 20ft exhaust hose, so very quiet. Installed a stand alone 3000W inverter supported by six 6v golf cart bats, that is tied to three circuits _ frig, ice maker and 120 outlets. Getting set up for the LOOP. Have a 160amp alternator on the stbd engine that keeps everything charged up well. But when in the South where we live, its the generator and air conditioner running.
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by FoxtrotCharlie View Post
Had the same concern. We have a 120 fridge (very efficient) and an ice maker. Also have an enclosed 9K gen that sits at front of ER, and has a new 20ft exhaust hose, so very quiet. Installed a stand alone 3000W inverter supported by six 6v golf cart bats, that is tied to three circuits _ frig, ice maker and 120 outlets. Getting set up for the LOOP. Have a 160amp alternator on the stbd engine that keeps everything charged up well. But when in the South where we live, its the generator and air conditioner running.
That's my system with modest difference in alternator and battery bank size. Being able to run the microwave, coffeemaker, crockpot, rice maker, etc., are also nice pluses.

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Old 06-11-2020, 07:42 PM   #14
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My boat 120/240 AC except for some nav equipment and running lights. I have a Magnum inverter that outputs both 120/240. All AC power runs thru the inverter except for water heaters, laundry and water maker that are usually run when a generator or shore power is available. When power is cut off, the inverter takes over from the banks. When batteries are low it starts a generator. When the mains are running, alternators keep the bank up, so no generator. When anchored, I run a generator about 2 hours a day unless I have a lot of people on board. That's when I make water, do laundry and heat water. Water heaters are super insulated so the heat last several days. My stove is diesel, but in warm weather I use induction that the inverter runs.

With the inverter my generator use dropped about 90%. But I'm in a cool climate and avoid heat. So only rarely use air conditioning.
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Old 06-11-2020, 11:45 PM   #15
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Yup, we're in the same boat. We use over 180 amp hours a day between the House-size AC fridge/freezer (w/a Magnum 2000W inverter running it a few hours a day), plus a 9.5 cubic foot 12 volt freezer that eats a lot of juice all on its own 24 hours a day. Then, because we are often working we need to keep electronics charged. Everything from laptops to tablets, phones, and cameras and drone for video production.

We installed four Firefly batteries five years ago and they have been awesome. Not only do we get more available amp hours, but they charge so much faster and will perform in a constant partial state of charge. We end up running the generator (NextGen 3.5kW) an hour a day, or a couple hours every other day.

My wife added an AC chest freezer on the aft deck this month (a reaction to the predicted meat shortage - I gave up arguing against and finally said the old "yes dear"...) and we finally got our 12 volt Village Tec Little Wonder water maker working, so we'll gobbling up even more amps. I'd like a couple more Firefly batteries, and we're adding solar as well.

HOWEVER, if I could, I'd happily get rid of the generator and install the new Integrel generator replacement system...
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Old 06-12-2020, 04:09 AM   #16
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There are 12-volt only fridges available. I never could understand the reasoning behind dual-voltage units, the controllers for which often fail. When 120VAC is present those controllers invert to 12-volts anyway so where is the benefit of dual-voltage units? Perhaps, a difficult wiring situation may be a reason. Plus, when on battery power, you are inverting from 12VDC to 120VAC and then inverting back to 12VDC at the fridge with two associated power losses.
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Nothing wrong with what you are thinking. I would actually love to have an AC fridge as every single MFing dual voltage fridge I have ever owned has sucked so badly....currently dealing with issues in my new to me boat. Anyway, realize battery charging profiles. Bulk charge happens quickly...then into absorption. You'll never make it to float in "just a couple of hours generator use". That is where solar comes in. Solar can get that last little bit after you shut down the generator.

Also, Ted makes good points. Think about how you will really cruise the boat. I would never need solar the way I use my boat. I am either running or have the generator running because it is so damn hot down here. Good luck! I think you're on the right track.
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Old 06-12-2020, 07:30 AM   #17
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There are 12-volt only fridges available. I never could understand the reasoning behind dual-voltage units, the controllers for which often fail. When 120VAC is present those controllers invert to 12-volts anyway so where is the benefit of dual-voltage units? Perhaps, a difficult wiring situation may be a reason. Plus, when on battery power, you are inverting from 12VDC to 120VAC and then inverting back to 12VDC at the fridge with two associated power losses.


The reasoning behind the dual voltage fridges dates back to the days before smart battery chargers. If you left the battery chargers on they would cook the batteries dry in no time. So when at the docked plugged in the fridge would run on shore power and the battery charger would be off except when recharging batteries. In my opinion using a straight DC model or an AC thru an inverter is the way to go. No reason to go DC to AC back to DC.

John
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Old 06-12-2020, 08:29 AM   #18
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Thank you for the info on the reasoning in the past. My ownership postdates that era. Unfortunately, folks see the offerings of the dual-voltage models and assume they are a good thing not understanding how they work and not knowing that, with smart chargers, they are unnecessary and actually have some clear negatives including control modules that often fail. I don't the the answer but there may be a way to eliminate the control module and convert to 12VDC only.
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The reasoning behind the dual voltage fridges dates back to the days before smart battery chargers. If you left the battery chargers on they would cook the batteries dry in no time. So when at the docked plugged in the fridge would run on shore power and the battery charger would be off except when recharging batteries. In my opinion using a straight DC model or an AC thru an inverter is the way to go. No reason to go DC to AC back to DC.

John
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