Interesting small trawlers

[long-cours.62]

At this point, it's very clear that you know very little and have never seen someone truly seasick from riding in a washing machiso I'll be fine" is a bunch of worthless dreamer bullshit. We've all had enough.

I am a "specialist" of seasickness
The 3 worst weather I had was :
- in south Atlantic after round Cape of good hope and heading north but no seasick 250000 t tanker ship
- between France to Corsica with gust of 100 kts I got seasick ( shame on me) but the ship was only 72m. But still able to drink...and vomit but as soon as go to the bed no more seasick.
- North sea, bad weather and must do job on hydraulic steering...again shame on me but the ship was bigger a 80000T tanker ship...but again able to drink and no more seasick as soon as lying on the bed.


All that to say ; you still able to drink and no more seasick if your are at bed

 

[OldDan1943]

It appears, the boat taking the video is not experience the same rough ride.

 

[Mako]

There’s something strange about the roll of that boat. I counted about a ten second roll period. It appears to be suffering to right itself, perhaps is loaded heavily on deck?

 

[JWellington]

I am a "specialist" of seasickness
The 3 worst weather I had was :
- in south Atlantic after round Cape of good hope and heading north but no seasick 250000 t tanker ship
- between France to Corsica with gust of 100 kts I got seasick ( shame on me) but the ship was only 72m. But still able to drink...and vomit but as soon as go to the bed no more seasick.
- North sea, bad weather and must do job on hydraulic steering...again shame on me but the ship was bigger a 80000T tanker ship...but again able to drink and no more seasick as soon as lying on the bed.


All that to say ; you still able to drink and no more seasick if your are at bed

Exactly, thanks for the corroboration. I also never got sick even in severe weather. But boy, have I ever seen a lot of others do so.

 

[psneeld]

Honest is not necessarily unkind...depends on which side you are on.

There is unkind and nothing here I remember has risen to the point of bad words or worse.....maybe not flattering but again a bit of honesty often never is.

Boaters can easily lose their lives, especially when talking about "rounding the horn"..... others may see a weakness in logic and be bturptally honest. I would hope that is within the civility rules.

 

[OldDan1943]

With the proper fuel load and stores, assuming perfect weather windows (not exceeding the boats design), my boat should be able to traverse the east coast of the US 'outside' without a fuel stop or go to Bermuda, without refueling but why would I do that except to prove it can be done.
I just might be able to traverse the Cape too, with minimal modifications to the boat.
Again I ask, would I try such a fool hearty adventure except to beat myself up physically?

I should add, the ATs are CE B rated. The windows need a storm windows and the engine air intakes need to be relocated higher on the boat. Both could be accomplished but, why go to that expense? Just be content with remaining within the ATs design criteria.

 

[twistedtree]

Some think survivability is more important than comfort. Lets say we expect to experience such level 5 conditions, Id rathercbe on a boat that is designed to handle it, than in a flimsy one. Even severe storms usually only last a few days. Some some guys just heave to, batten the hatches, put out sea anchors, etc, strap themselves into the bunk with water bottles, and protein bars, and wait till it passes.

Well, that seems kind of obvious isn't it? For the people to survive, the boat needs to survive? Your goals seem to be a CE A rated boat. No problem, plenty of them out there.

 

[twistedtree]

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2020-trondheim-trawler-6047486/

Well, not THAT interesting, apparently, since after 5 years nobody has taken the bait and ordered one. Are you considering one?

 

[JWellington]

With the proper fuel load and stores, assuming perfect weather windows (not exceeding the boats design), my boat should be able to traverse the east coast of the US 'outside' without a fuel stop or go to Bermuda, without refueling but why would I do that except to prove it can be done.
I just might be able to traverse the Cape too, with minimal modifications to the boat.
Again I ask, would I try such a fool hearty adventure except to beat myself up physically?

I should add, the ATs are CE B rated. The windows need a storm windows and the engine air intakes need to be relocated higher on the boat. Both could be accomplished but, why go to that expense? Just be content with remaining within the ATs design criteria.

Boaters who round the horn, and do the NW passage, report that they do it for various reasons. There are even long distance races where they have to round the horn. Ive even heard guys say that they dont want to do it, but insist on buying a boat that is easily capable of it. The logic being a that if the boated is rated for that, it will likely be good for anywhere else in the world. But sure , apparently many of the families of the guys rounding the horn say they are foolhardy.

 

[twistedtree]

Boaters who round the horn, and do the NW passage, report that they do it for various reasons. There are even long distance races where they have to round the horn. Ive even heard guys say that they dont want to do it, but insist on buying a boat that is easily capable of it. The logic being a that if the boated is rated for that, it will likely be good for anywhere else in the world. But sure , apparently many of the families of the guys rounding the horn say they are foolhardy.

What's your short-list of boats at this point?

 

[JWellington]

Well, not THAT interesting, apparently, since after 5 years nobody has taken the bait and ordered one. Are you considering one?

Looked seriously, but a bit small, and prefer alu instead of steel. But ill bet it would be a really decent boat. There are all sorts of boat plans out there that nobody has ordered/built, so that point wouldnt matter.

 

[twistedtree]

Boaters who round the horn, and do the NW passage, report that they do it for various reasons. There are even long distance races where they have to round the horn. Ive even heard guys say that they dont want to do it, but insist on buying a boat that is easily capable of it. The logic being a that if the boated is rated for that, it will likely be good for anywhere else in the world. But sure , apparently many of the families of the guys rounding the horn say they are foolhardy.

Is this the “logic about rounding the horn” that you are talking about? If so, I don’t know whether to agree or disagree because I don’t know of any “rating” for rounding the horn. Maybe you mean CE A? Or are you talking about some other rating like ABS? A lot
of your own rating of boats seems to be based on how they appear, and whether they are built from AL or steel. Something more objective would be good. Maybe ABS ice rated? But ABS I don’t think is even applicable until you get bigger than most pleasure boats. I think the cutoff is 30m or something in that range.
Is and ice rating even required for the horn?

 

[JWellington]

Attn: Icelandic fishermen. This is one of the boats you guys buy, and risk your lives to use around the North Atlantic. Do you believe the Iclandic builder that advertises that they're built for the most rugged condions out there? Has the safety record of your boats been ok for the last, say 1000 years in those waters? Would you guys criticize any members of this group if we bought a boat list this 'Cleoptara 50' to sail anywhere in the world?
Norwegians, also please feel free to answer.
Thanks in advance.

 

[twistedtree]

Attn: Icelandic fishermen. This is one of the boats you guys buy, and risk your lives to use around the North Atlantic. Do you believe the Iclandic builder that advertises that they're built for the most rugged condions out there? Has the safety record of your boats been ok for the last, say 1000 years in those waters? Would you guys criticize any members of this group if we bought a boat list this 'Cleoptara 50' to sail anywhere in the world?

Norwegians, also please feel free to answer.

Thanks in advance.

Well, with a planing hull and 500 NM range, I don’t think it’s a fit for world cruising.

I think you need to spell out what your requirements are for your use in terms of concrete specification. “It’s Icelandic” doesn’t really hit any points, or worse yet lead you off in the wrong direction as this boat has.

 

[JWellington]

Is this the “logic about rounding the horn” that you are talking about? If so, I don’t know whether to agree or disagree because I don’t know of any “rating” for rounding the horn. Maybe you mean CE A? Or are you talking about some other rating like ABS? A lot
of your own rating of boats seems to be based on how they appear, and whether they are built from AL or steel. Something more objective would be good. Maybe ABS ice rated? But ABS I don’t think is even applicable until you get bigger than most pleasure boats. I think the cutoff is 30m or something in that range.
Is and ice rating even required for the horn?

When I said rated for rounding the horn, I meant if it would be considered such by the various ratings outfits, some of which are: USCG, ABYC, CE, AS/NZ, ABS, Lloyds, DNV(norway), Nordic Boat Standard(Iceland). So like Salty Pelican who is having Hammerhead made now, he told us he asks the naval architect if say, the windows exceed all ratings out there. So lets say a guy buys the Cleopatra 50 I just posted as an interesting boat, and you dont trust the Icelandic standards, you could exceed them, and ask the NA if anybody in the world would say theyre not good enough to risk rounding the horn. I think Steve Dashew did pretty much that too. How better could anybody do?

 

[Mako]

@TT, yes you're right there is a minimum size for ABS classification which if I recall was 84 feet. That is a common threshold in many requirements and I believe it is LPP, not LOA. I'm sure many owners of "small" super yachts of about 100ft get away from being considered ships but essence of this rule.

Of course the OP could design and build his boat to ABS but just not have it inspected or obtain certs. How about your new Nordy, was it spec'd purely to ABYC or other?

 

[JWellington]

Twistletree, the matter of range has been extensively discussed previously. Conclusion was that for any of these boats, it easy to design/ modify for say 2000nm, so it can cross oceans.

 

[JWellington]

@TT, yes you're right there is a minimum size for ABS classification which if I recall was 84 feet. That is a common threshold in many requirements and I believe it is LPP, not LOA. I'm sure many owners of "small" super yachts of about 100ft get away from being considered ships but essence of this rule.

Of course the OP could design and build his boat to ABS but just not have it inspected or obtain certs. How about your new Nordy, was it spec'd purely to ABYC or other?

Mako, Ill bet your design, that you recently showed us, could be build to meet/exceed any standard, right? Would you adivse a guy to build such that its appropriate to round the horn in? Seemed like a great boat.(46X19)

 

[Mako]

@JWell, that design is CE-A and could be designed for "bluewater, high latitude" cruising. To date I'm still concerned about how well she'll track with quartering or stern seas. However with Covid I'm not traveling internationally, and probably won't be flying back out to Turkey until end of this year, so I'm not bothering the naval architect anymore at this time to develop the design further.

Thought would need to be put into the size of all glass surfaces, deadlights on portholes, fixed versus opening portholes, etc. Also, at its AVS of 72 degrees (or say modified to 90 degrees) what are the risks of downloading - where are engine room ventilation intakes located? How thick is the insulation being installed? Wow, so many factors to consider.

If you're looking for a design that is more off-the-shelf and has better resale value, then I'd suggest looking at the Diesel Ducks. I've gone back and forth on their designs so many times I can't count and had numerous conversations with G.B., but I just can't get over trying to make the layouts work for me unless going over 50ft, which is the threshold that I'm trying to keep to.

 

[JWellington]

Mako, thanks. So your design is already up to CE-A, and you say it could be for high latitudes, etc. Regarding the Cleopatra 50 just above, do you figure the Icelandic Nordic Boat standards are as high a CE-A? I cant image them say they deserve lower standards. All the scandinavian boats we check out are tops for insulation/heating. Many with heated windows and decks even.

 

[Mako]

You might be better off asking your questions over at boatdesign.net as many of those members are naval architects. My impression is that all of the class societies have similarities in the bulk of their requirements. I would think that if you built an ice-class boat, designed to Class, in Russia or China or Norway or America or EU, that you would be very well served with a robust design. However, Class does not specify whether your AVS is 45 or 70 or 90+ degrees.

Honestly I'm not sure how much more productive it will be discussing design on this forum. Definitely head over to the design forum. And you should call that shipyard and discuss with them, perhaps over TEAMS or Skype, what your proposal is. Make sure they can meet your needs and that the estimated cost is within your budget.

 

[JWellington]

You might be better off asking your questions over at boatdesign.net as many of those members are naval architects. My impression is that all of the class societies have similarities in the bulk of their requirements. I would think that if you built an ice-class boat, designed to Class, in Russia or China or Norway or America or EU, that you would be very well served with a robust design. However, Class does not specify whether your AVS is 45 or 70 or 90+ degrees.

Honestly I'm not sure how much more productive it will be discussing design on this forum. Definitely head over to the design forum. And you should call that shipyard and discuss with them, perhaps over TEAMS or Skype, what your proposal is. Make sure they can meet your needs and that the estimated cost is within your budget.

Yes, I have on that, and other forms, and they agree with you, and me on these points we've discussed. Some of those NAs that have commented on those Norwegian boats like those of the OP, say that those boats were designed by NAs too, ones that know what it takes to operate in the artic, and build them thus.

 

[Mako]

I doubt at 30ft length they will be very livable. Probably have to reach about 40ft to be comfortable enough for your long expeditions.

Resale will likely be tough but perhaps that's not a major concern for you, and if you plan to keep it for 10-20 years or more, then who cares!

Based on a quote I received from Damen (before Covid) I'd guess you could have them build that, in an austere "commercial level" interior (not a yacht) in the $500k area, but that's a really rough guess. Steel prices have tripled these days, supply chain problems are rampant, and if you're building in aluminum that would be higher.

Let us know what figures you receive from your shipyard.

BTW, in your last post you said "like those of the OP", but you're the OP, so what did you mean?

 

[ScottC]

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2020-trondheim-trawler-6047486/

I'm still trying to get my head around it having electric motors for propulsion -- AND -- a 925 gallon fuel tank. I must be missing something... Perhaps diesel is an option??

 

[JWellington]

I doubt at 30ft length they will be very livable. Probably have to reach about 40ft to be comfortable enough for your long expeditions.

Resale will likely be tough but perhaps that's not a major concern for you, and if you plan to keep it for 10-20 years or more, then who cares!

Based on a quote I received from Damen (before Covid) I'd guess you could have them build that, in an austere "commercial level" interior (not a yacht) in the $500k area, but that's a really rough guess. Steel prices have tripled these days, supply chain problems are rampant, and if you're building in aluminum that would be higher.

I doubt at 30ft length they will be very livable. Probably have to reach about 40ft to be comfortable enough for your long expeditions.

Resale will likely be tough but perhaps that's not a major concern for you, and if you plan to keep it for 10-20 years or more, then who cares!

Based on a quote I received from Damen (before Covid) I'd guess you could have them build that, in an austere "commercial level" interior (not a yacht) in the $500k area, but that's a really rough guess. Steel prices have tripled these days, supply chain problems are rampant, and if you're building in aluminum that would be higher.

Let us know what figures you receive from your shipyard.

BTW, in your last post you said "like those of the OP", but you're the OP, so what did you mean?[/QUOT
MAKO
By OP, I meant those little norwegian trawers I submitted. And they make them in various sizes, The latest one i submitted is 50', that Icelandic fishing boat. Resale, no issue for us 4 partners. The price will be somrthing like the Hammarhead that Salty Pelican is having built. Nobody ever asks him if he can afford it. Remember FA Theriault yard in Nova Scotia, they have built and you can order, a Cape Horn trawler from them. Last year I think they said about $500k CAD for hull, everything else extra, so likely $2 million done. Damen in hooland similar, and the french one thst does the Stronall system. Huge sheets of 1/2 " alu. Pandemic has slowed hings down, for sure. Its why some say we should just buy a used Dashew, about $2m too, for an old boat, but you can just motor away.

 

[Mako]

Good point @ScottC.

@JWell, forget the hybrid idea. I assume you would install a single diesel.

 

[JWellington]

I'm still trying to get my head around it having electric motors for propulsion -- AND -- a 925 gallon fuel tank. I must be missing something... Perhaps diesel is an option??

Yes, you missed posts talking about they can modify fuel capacities. Its common for builders to explicity advetsie that. '40-65' say, boats can easily get 2000nm.range. Hybrids get more fuel savings in the first place, we also want a kite sail for long trips. All off the shelf stuff already.

 

[JWellington]

Good point @ScottC.

@JWell, forget the hybrid idea. I assume you would install a single diesel.

Hybrid viable, whether series or parrallel . Some of the european yards say ALL their boats are already available as hybrids. 25-35% fuel savings. TThat huge flat roof on the Cleopatra 50 above, at least 5Kw solar capacity. One commercal catamarane we're looking at can get over 10kw...then a bit more from a modern windmill. Then some fuel savings from the automated kite sail, them more from slow 5kts speed. Easy to get 2000nm .

 

[OldDan1943]

I'm still trying to get my head around it having electric motors for propulsion -- AND -- a 925 gallon fuel tank. I must be missing something... Perhaps diesel is an option??

Perhaps a diesel generator to supply the electric motors and charge the batteries. So it is basically a diesel electric boat.

For some unknown reason a generator is not mentioned nor the number and size of the batteries.

 

[JWellington]

Perhaps a diesel generator to supply the electric motors and charge the batteries. So it is basically a diesel electric boat.

For some unknown reason a generator is not mentioned nor the number and size of the batteries.

Rather, 'certainy' gensets, thats what most hybrids are. They can put in any sort you like, and as much battery capacity as you like. The best use lit ion..Some have 100KwH, others 400....depends on several variables.