Interesting near collision

[OldDan1943]

Captain of the ore carrier say, "No worries mate. It will buff right out."

If there had been a collision what would the ore carrier do?
Call the Coast Guard, report the collision, request assistance and hope the sailboat folks had PFDs on.
I doubt the freighter would or could safely stopped.

 

[rgano]

Have seen sailboaters pull their fair share on bonehead moves, but one day a Grand Banks sailing out of Long Beach, CA toward Catalina persisted in crossing stbd to port as I was leading a squadron of large amphibious warfare ships from San Diego toward Hawaii passing by LBeach. Sure, he may have had the right of way (no such thing as stand-on and give-way vessels back then), but did the fool actually need to press the case causing me to back full and scatter the rest of the squadron? I could not even see his masthead as he blithely passed under my bow never making any attempt to change course and not paying any attention to our very loud steam whistle. Below asleep or involved in other monkey bidness?

 

[OldDan1943]

When I was about 15 or 16, dad had an International 110 sail boat. I thought I could make it across the ore carrier's bow. The closer I got, the more I realized it was a bad decision. I fell off and butter flied (or wing on wing) down the carriers stbd side about 20 yards away. Looking up at the ore carrier, it was BIG. I went about 1/2 down its hull, then moved away to avoid the effect of the prop.

 

[Benthic2]

Captain of the ore carrier say, "No worries mate. It will buff right out."

If there had been a collision what would the ore carrier do?
Call the Coast Guard, report the collision, request assistance and hope the sailboat folks had PFDs on.
I doubt the freighter would or could safely stopped.

That would get very messy as the US/Canadian border runs up the middle of the waterway.

 

[markpierce]

Beware crossing a channel in front of an approaching ship. Slip behind.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

A sailor's epitaph...

Here lies Jonathon Day
He died maintaining his right-of-way
He was right, he was right, he was right all along
But he's just as dead as if he was wrong

 

[Art]

The incident is in the first 90 seconds of the video linked below......

It seems like 90% of collision avoidence is awareness and common sense, but sometimes you need to know the rules and I guess I don't know them well enough.

If you don't want to watch the video there is a large freighter making a turn in the channel and a small sailboat crossing the channel and it is uncomfortably close

It looks like the freighter turned sharper than he needed to just to play chicken with the sailboat because after the sailboat takes evasive action the freighter turns to port. It seems like he could have just gone behind the sailboat and avoided the entire conflict.

The pertinent points that I noticed and that make the issue confusing for me are:

Sailboat vs Powerboat, which I know is an oversimplification but in this case the sailboat is so underpowered it can't move and the freighter is just chugging along.

I thought the term "restricted mobility" usually relates to the working function of the ship, but could it also apply to a sailboat that can't fight the current ?

The freighter gives 5 short blasts but doesn't slow down. It seems odd for him to acknowledge the danger but maintain speed ?? (or was he acknowledging the danger for the little guy and just saying "get out of my way")

It seemed akin to a pedestrian crossing where there was no crosswalk....sure, they may be wrong but it doesn't make them fair game. The freighter really seemed to turn sharper than he needed.

I am sure the freighter captain knows what he's doing. I don't think you can get to his position without that, so the odds are far greater that my confusion is due to my lack of knowledge rather than an error by the captain, but.....I'd love for everyone to play armchair captain and second guess both parties in this.

Sail boat pilot was like a dear in headlights!

 

[Knot Fast]

Tub Drain

We went thru that stretch 2 months ago. It's the last 1/2 mile of the St Croix River where it narrows and joins Lake Huron. If Lake Huron is a bath tub, this is the drain hole. It is one of the two most distinctly crazy waterways we have experienced on the Great Loop. Northbound, we fought a 5.75 mph current amid highly turbulent waters - a washing machine! We made 2.25 mph over ground, so we were there awhile. Here's our time-lapse dash cam (ala Wayfarer
the Swamp Commander Supremo): link (goto 8:20) The Lake Freighters were uniformly professional, courteous and friendly to us.

 

[Landfall]

If you ever go through there again knot fast, run the Canadian side headed north, get outside the reds and you will pick up a eddy current all the way through the bridge , it starts below the casino, plenty of water nearly to shore, you can see the shallows, makes the trip much more enjoyable and saves 20 minutes or better.

 

[Northern Spy]

Made the news up here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/freighter-sail-boat-nearly-collide-st-clair-river-1.6153251

 

[Benthic2]

From the article linked in the previous post:

Any boat that doesn't move out of the way for a large freighter can be subject to a $30,000 fine, Barry said, adding they usually always try to educate people first.

 

[rwidman]

The guy in the sailboat is an idiot! He should have seen that freighter coming twenty minutes or more before it got that close. His first thought should have been to get out of the way right now and wait for the freighter to clear. If he has any thought that he is the stand on vessel and the freighter is going to stop or move out of the channel to avoid him, he is even more of an idiot!


He is lucky to be alive.

As for the captain or pilot of the freighter, he/she is not playing "chicken" with that sailboat. They don't want to be involved in a collision, there's too much paperwork. These people are professionals and don't want that on their record.


re: "Would be interested in any radio calls made."

In my experience, sailboats rarely monitor the VHF and in many sailboats, the VHF cannot even be used from the helm, it's mounted in the cabin.

 

[psneeld]

Exactly why I would be interested in ANY radio calls made and why in a traffic controlled area ( I don't know for sure.... but someone said for vessels over 200T it was...which means ALL chuckleheads with radios should monitor) and why the sailboat should be monitoring.

 

[bill.kimbell]

Sailboat Skipper At Fault

My take as an ex sailor.

The sailboat was making scant headway against what was probably a stiff current. And he knew it.

It took him too long to make the decision to change tack to more downwind and with the current to get the heck out of the way. Once the late decision was made, executing it took too long.

In his defense, possibly he was unsure what the ship's intended course would be.

The sailboat was making very little way against wind/current. Was probably headed directly for the ship's course. Should have gybed or tacked away much sooner.

A VHF call on Ch 13 is always a quick way to speak to the ship's bridge and agree on a course of action.

 

[CapeCod]

"Rule 9 (b).A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."


This. 5 Blasts = Warning Danger. Sailboat was crossing in the channel with a large ship unable to maneuver. Loss of speed = loss of steerage. The sailboat should have bore off or started her auxiliary power to maneuver out of the way long before she did.

 

[Andiamo2018]

The freighter takes a sharp turn to starboard for what reason? Why would anyone think he would head towards shallow water with no port or dockage?

Freighter clearly in the wrong.

Red = Freighter, headed northwest Green = sailboat

 

[John R M]

It's actually the St. Clair River.

 

[CapeCod]

It is unbelievable to me that anybody believes the sailboat has the right of way in this situation. It is not as simple as "sail has the right of way". There are many exceptions to that rule (vessel engaged in fishing, vessel with limited ability to maneuver, vessel constrained by draft, vessel in channel). He was crossing the freighter in a channel. They are lucky there was no collision.

 

[NCheaven]

Freighter/sailboat

Great discussion, thanks for posting. Good case to learn from.

A creative US Power Squadron classroom instructor years ago gathered our class in a large hall, and gave us signs to carry like "Sailboat" and "freighter", etc., for various types of vessels, and set up "walk through" closing situations. Each walk through was evaluated by the class and instructor, and redone if necessary. It was a great introduction to problems that arise.

One posting comment early in this thread noted that the video was a reminder of the importance of boating instruction. Right now with boat sales soaring, presumably with many novice boaters taking to the water, it's a great time to recommend US Power Squadron classroom courses, seminars and on line videos to new boaters - and refreshers for experienced boaters, too. USPS exists for that primary reason - let's help steer our boating friends, especially new boaters, to USPS learning opportunities! Of course, USCGA, Boater's University and other organizations offer boating courses, too, but having taken some of each, I think USPS does it best, with the added benefit that USPS instructors and members help get new members out on the water in shake down cruises, short trips, etc., to practice what they've learned with more experienced USPS members directing the cruises. It's a great organization and merits our recommendations to friends.

Thanks again for the posting and so many good comments!

 

[Davil1]

My rules of the road

Rule 9 (b).A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

That said, there is a "history" between Laker masters and sailboats - a sail is like a red cape to a bull There is no reason they can't or shouldn't reduce speed while they five-blast themselves to their hearts content on Inland and Great Lakes waters. They're not going to be able to stop to avoid a collision but they can reduce speed.

===============================================
My Rules

Rule 1
if a floating object, sail or motor propelled is bigger than mine, stay out of its way, and make sure said object is aware of my intentions by early maneuver and communications

Rule 2
If the floating object is smaller than mine, may insist on a collision course AFTER and only AFTER checking my insurance coverage, asses post collision effects on my change of plans, sense of human and common decency.

Rule 3
If in doubt, refer to Rule 1

Sail my Cape Dory 30 ft Martha Lei out of Pine Knoll Shores NC

 

[DaveGibson]

Don't worry

Don't worry. He'll get out of our way. I learned that driving The Saratoga.

 

[CapeWhaler]

Well, there has been an ample number of comments made, most slamming the sailboat and sailboaters in general. But as someone with a 'foot in both hulls' (Pilgrim trawler and Catalina 27), I can't resist adding my two cents.

Over 55+ years of boating I have seen plenty of idiocy from both types, and mostly on the powerboat side. My sailboat being on a mooring in a busy pleasure boat harbor, I am convinced that 90% of powerboat drivers, large and small, have no idea of what "No Wake" means - besides being generally rude in general.
Joe
[Former USN QM2, frigate sea detail helmsman and boat coxswain)

 

[Andiamo2018]

It did not look like the sailboat was crossing in front of the freighter. The freighter turned towards the sailboat.

Any faster moving boat can put a slower boat in jeopardy, even making it appear the slower boat is in the wrong. For example - making a sharp turn so the quicker boat is approaching from starboard of the slower boat.

In this case the sailboat was NOT in the path of the freighter until the freighter made a turn to starboard.

 

[psneeld]

It did not look like the sailboat was crossing in front of the freighter. The freighter turned towards the sailboat.

Any faster moving boat can put a slower boat in jeopardy, even making it appear the slower boat is in the wrong. For example - making a sharp turn so the quicker boat is approaching from starboard of the slower boat.

In this case the sailboat was NOT in the path of the freighter until the freighter made a turn to starboard.

Rule 9 clearly explains why the freighter can do anything....assuming there are no local rules that overide.

Rule 9

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not
impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow
channel or fairway

 

[psneeld]

Well, there has been an ample number of comments made, most slamming the sailboat and sailboaters in general. But as someone with a 'foot in both hulls' (Pilgrim trawler and Catalina 27), I can't resist adding my two cents.

Over 55+ years of boating I have seen plenty of idiocy from both types, and mostly on the powerboat side. My sailboat being on a mooring in a busy pleasure boat harbor, I am convinced that 90% of powerboat drivers, large and small, have no idea of what "No Wake" means - besides being generally rude in general.
Joe
[Former USN QM2, frigate sea detail helmsman and boat coxswain)

Have been on all 3 sides of the helm too...sail, power and large military/commercial.

I believe I saw on the video where the sailboat came further to port even after seeing the ore carrier turn almost fully, so between crossing a narrow channel (rule 9) and because the freighter had to obviously turn to stay near the middle.....thus putting the sailing vessel as the give way vessel.....pretty silly not to fall off because he was obviously crossing and less than 65ft.

After teaching powerboats classes and hands on for decades...at least many of the powerboats admit the don't know the rules...most of my sailing friends brag about knowing them but still pull stunts like these. And some have their sailing endorsement on their captains license.


Worst of all...and why I asked about radio traffic and like someone else stated how sailboats often aren't listening..... how dumb do you have to be to be in that waterway and not listening up?

 

[Circumnavigator]

The location is the north end of the Saint Clair River, a mile south of Lake Huron. The current is going away from the camera -- left to right, so the sailboat was apparently going downriver, with the current. The river is around 1,500 feet wide, with maybe 1,200 of that usable by the laker -- probably not a "narrow channel" within the meaning of the Colregs.



Colregs must be left aside in situations like this -- a recreational sailboat is never the stand on vessel with respect to a large ship. The sailboat should have turned on his engine and gone to the side of the river as soon as he saw the big guy coming.


The sailboat might also have used channel 13 and asked the Cuyahoga what he should do. My experience in calling big ships on 13 is that they are almost always polite and helpful -- "Thanks for the call, captain."



As for the laker slowing down -- or not -- that would be the last thing he'd do, because when the engine is in reverse his propeller looses all ability to steer the ship. And, of course, even full reverse wouldn't slow the ship much.


I think Cuyahoga turned hard to his right, intending to be east of the sailboat, with it on his port side. That accounts for the correction after the miss -- of course he wasn't trying to hit, he just made it possible for the sailboat to escape to the west.



When people on my boats are nervous about big ships, I tell them that assuming the engine is working and/or there is wind, a big ship couldn't hit a small boat even if it tried -- the small boat is vastly more maneuverable, and can go places the big ship can't -- in this case the shallow water on the east side of the river.



The North Channel our of Boston Harbor gets a fair amount of big ship traffic -- three to five a day -- cruise ships, containers, cars, salt, and lots of petroleum. On the seaward side of the channel, there is a large open area with 10-20 foot depths and then the South Channel, not used by big ships. 80% of the small boat traffic going north out of the harbor uses the North Channel. If the wind is out of the north, sailboats tack within it. At one point a while ago, we heard on VHF13 two tankers agreeing on their passing, which ended with "It's time to get out the fiberglass seeking missiles."


Jim

 

[rwidman]

It did not look like the sailboat was crossing in front of the freighter. The freighter turned towards the sailboat.

Any faster moving boat can put a slower boat in jeopardy, even making it appear the slower boat is in the wrong. For example - making a sharp turn so the quicker boat is approaching from starboard of the slower boat.

In this case the sailboat was NOT in the path of the freighter until the freighter made a turn to starboard.

You can be certain that the captain or pilot of the freighter did not make any move to intentionally jeopardize the sailboat and he/she was not playing chicken with the sailboat.

That freighter must follow a certain course in the river to remain in the channel and to make any turns the channel requires.

Putting it in simple terms, the freighter would have made that turn regardless, sailboat or not.

 

[pattormey]

Rule 9

A sailor's epitaph...

Here lies Jonathon Day
He died maintaining his right-of-way
He was right, he was right, he was right all along
But he's just as dead as if he was wrong

Just to be clear, this sailboat did not have the right of way as mentioned in other posts. Cannot impede travel of a vessel by crossing a channel, which is what the sailboat was doing. This guy did not show that he had any knowledge of the rules.

As I say at the start of every captain class I teach, the Rules apply to all vessels and operators regardless of whether they are studying for their license or regardless of whether their less than 12m vessel requires the book to be on board.

 

[Andiamo2018]

There are difference in what people see in the video. But regs 7 and 8 make it clear that ALL vessels must operate in a safe way and try to avoid a collision. Period.

But I'm going to watch the video again...

The track left by the freighter shows it started its turn at the beginning of the video.

You can watch this webcam yourself. Here is a link to a regular map of the location:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0020455,-82.4253496,12z

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0020455,-82.4253496,12z

I don't know if tides have any effect there but generally speaking water flows towards the ocean, not inland to a lake.

BUT, I think I found this out to be Pt Edward and that the cam is facing SOUTH, at least at first. So the ship is going against the current and the sailboat with it. Though clearly the sailboat is moving from left to right against the background which indicates it is NOT making headway at the beginning of the clip. Then he hardens up and starts making way.

The waterway makes a turn into the lake before those bridges.

I think this is the chart: https://www.nauticalchartsonline.com/chart/zoom?chart=14852

This has been a fun exorcise

The ship is going north, the sailboat south. The freighter can clearly make fairly sharp turns because it did it twice. The freighter had to proceed farther north before making the turn.

It is still hard (for me anyway) to even be certain I'm looking at the right place but in a lot of ways it doesn't matter.

The freighter took a sharp turn that endangered the sailboat. If the cam is facing north then the sailboat was on the wrong side of the waterway. Still though the freighter veered across the waterway long before the turn. The only excuse I can see is that perhaps the freighter didn't realize how quickly it could turn, started the turn early, scared the begeezus out of the sailboat then realized he was turning too soon and had to straighten back out. It's doubtful the person at the helm was that inexperienced but you never know.

Also, the freighter was on inland waters where there is no 'constrained by draft' which wasn't an issue anyway according to the chart...

Man, I keep getting having to re-figure my orientation...

But again, and finally because I need to get my butt in gear....

The freighter made a turn that put it far too close to another vessel.

And the general rule of thumb is 'The bigger it is the faster it is going'. No way the sailboat could do much more than spin around which was just enough.

 

[Andiamo2018]

And the sailboat does not appear to be crossing the channel - just sailing south but being pushed out by the current.

A cop chases a suspect and shots at him, hitting a bystander. The bystander was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time and he got shot. But the cops' training included NOT shooting bystanders no matter what.

The freighter captain made a mistake - I think clearly indicated by his following turn to port AFTER scaring the sailboat.