HTurner
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Hurricane Ian was Tropical Storm Ian was Tropical Depression 09
- Thread starter Larry M
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
OP
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OldDan1943
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Spike, stay away from big glass windows.
One bad thing about riding it out in a hotel, they have lots of expensive food for you to buy.
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socalrider
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Good lord! Wonder how those vessels even got out of their slips/off their moorings! What happens next?
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twistedtree
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Comodave
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The Weather Channel had a shot of a marina in Tampa somewhere and all the boats were sitting on the bottom since all the water had been drawn out. Didn’t get the name of the marina, wouldn’t have meant anything to me since I am not familiar with the area.
Barking Sands
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Are you still thinking they were so far off on their estimations?
This is a good interactive tool to view potential storm surges. You can select an area and zoom in and out and also select the Hurricane strength (1-5) from the buttons on the top.
https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/nationalsurge/?text
Barking Sands
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I like this one too. Its a live map based on current tracks and storm data.
https://cera.coastalrisk.live/
You can select the scale for water height above NAVD88 sea level or water height above ground.
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O C Diver
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All the pictures I've seen so far of Fort Myers don't show anything close to 12'. No doubt the wind was bad, but not seeing any buildings so far where the first story is completely under water.
Ted
Delta Riverat
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I did.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. DC. Are the water level numbers in feet or meters?
Mr. DC. Are the water level numbers in feet or meters?
Barking Sands
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That has to be much higher than 12 feet above MSL. Taken from the second story. Lucky to have survived.
Comodave
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The Weather Channel was reporting 10’+ surge in places.
Hi Ted:
Native Floridian here. I've lived through a few hurricanes. But even I had to have the craziest part of hurricane storm surge explained to me by a meteorologist.
You probably saw several accounts of Sarasota bay and Tampa Bay "emptying out" today. Anyone can look at the counterclockwise rotation of hurricane winds imposed over a map, and see how the water from the NORTH side of the storm was pushed by the wind, around the storm, and then deposited on the land areas on the SOUTH side of the storm, i.e. the Ft. Myers area.
But that's not all there is to storm surge. There is a most interesting phenomenon associated with hurricanes:
Inside the eye, the barometric pressure is the lowest. The water rises up inside the eye as the hurricane approaches the coast.
Depending upon several variables, the water inside the eye of a Cat 4 can be as much as 30 feet higher than the water outside the eye (before the eye hits a land mass).
So when the eye of a storm passes over land, it brings the "higher eye water" along with it.
Once the eye breaches land, the eye wall begins to break down because the eye no longer has water beneath it (this is simplifying things, but I don't need to discuss all the physics). The "higher eye water" starts to "leak" out.
I was watching an unmanned camera on Sanibel Island today that was mounted high up on the second floor balcony of a condo.
When the camera became submerged, I knew then that the eye wall had hit Sanibel.
And you are correct that once the water is released from within the eye, it will naturally "level out." Like when you spill a glass of liquid on your countertop, it moves immediately to the lowest edge and runs on to the floor.
This "higher water inside the eye" is the reason why tide gauges can measure a storm surge of 13 feet in one location, yet a gauge location only, say, ten miles north of the first one, measures just 4 feet of storm surge.
Both gauges are accurate. The northern gauge wasn't located in a place where the eye passed over it, or the eye wall had already started to break down by then.
This is why Sanibel can be hit with a 20 ft storm surge, but Cape Coral may only experience a 5 ft storm surge minutes later.
This is why barrier islands like Sanibel act as "barriers" to storm surge. (In fact, it's why they are called "barrier islands.") A hurricane's eye begins to break down when it passes over a barrier island, and the water contained within the eye starts to "leak out."
There are several other factors that can contribute to storm surge, such as the shallower water close to the coast, but you get the idea.
Photos from Sanibel Island when the sun comes up will certainly be interesting.
Warm Regards,
Mrs. Trombley
Here are a couple of photos of boats aground in hurricane holes on Tampa Bay that I found on the twitter:
Native Floridian here. I've lived through a few hurricanes. But even I had to have the craziest part of hurricane storm surge explained to me by a meteorologist.
You probably saw several accounts of Sarasota bay and Tampa Bay "emptying out" today. Anyone can look at the counterclockwise rotation of hurricane winds imposed over a map, and see how the water from the NORTH side of the storm was pushed by the wind, around the storm, and then deposited on the land areas on the SOUTH side of the storm, i.e. the Ft. Myers area.
But that's not all there is to storm surge. There is a most interesting phenomenon associated with hurricanes:
Inside the eye, the barometric pressure is the lowest. The water rises up inside the eye as the hurricane approaches the coast.
Depending upon several variables, the water inside the eye of a Cat 4 can be as much as 30 feet higher than the water outside the eye (before the eye hits a land mass).
So when the eye of a storm passes over land, it brings the "higher eye water" along with it.
Once the eye breaches land, the eye wall begins to break down because the eye no longer has water beneath it (this is simplifying things, but I don't need to discuss all the physics). The "higher eye water" starts to "leak" out.
I was watching an unmanned camera on Sanibel Island today that was mounted high up on the second floor balcony of a condo.
When the camera became submerged, I knew then that the eye wall had hit Sanibel.
And you are correct that once the water is released from within the eye, it will naturally "level out." Like when you spill a glass of liquid on your countertop, it moves immediately to the lowest edge and runs on to the floor.
This "higher water inside the eye" is the reason why tide gauges can measure a storm surge of 13 feet in one location, yet a gauge location only, say, ten miles north of the first one, measures just 4 feet of storm surge.
Both gauges are accurate. The northern gauge wasn't located in a place where the eye passed over it, or the eye wall had already started to break down by then.
This is why Sanibel can be hit with a 20 ft storm surge, but Cape Coral may only experience a 5 ft storm surge minutes later.
This is why barrier islands like Sanibel act as "barriers" to storm surge. (In fact, it's why they are called "barrier islands.") A hurricane's eye begins to break down when it passes over a barrier island, and the water contained within the eye starts to "leak out."
There are several other factors that can contribute to storm surge, such as the shallower water close to the coast, but you get the idea.
Photos from Sanibel Island when the sun comes up will certainly be interesting.
Warm Regards,
Mrs. Trombley
Here are a couple of photos of boats aground in hurricane holes on Tampa Bay that I found on the twitter:
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ranger58sb
Guru
From another forum, a picture of "Legacy" (Legacy Harbour?) in Ft. Myers.
The other pic is just behind us, at just under high tide, when we were at Legacy Harbour last June/July '21.
I don't know how high the piles were, but it looks like not high enough...
-Chris
The other pic is just behind us, at just under high tide, when we were at Legacy Harbour last June/July '21.
I don't know how high the piles were, but it looks like not high enough...
-Chris
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psneeld
Guru
"Storm surge is caused primarily by
the strong winds in a hurricane or
tropical storm. The low pressure of
the storm has minimal contribution!"
The above is from the National Hurricane Center brochure on storm surge. Unfortunately have lost link to pdf file. Another reason storm surge waries greatly in short distances is bottom slope....just like in tsunamis.
Low air pressure also plays a role.
At the center of a hurricane, air pressure is low. Low air pressure causes a slight bulge in the ocean, which adds to the mound of water that causes storm surge. Most of the water is piled up by wind, but about 5% of the mound is due to low air pressure.
Hurricanes are a whole professional study by themselves and in my experience, most people pass along a incorrect technical info, even if their lifetime of hurricane survival skills are pretty good.
the strong winds in a hurricane or
tropical storm. The low pressure of
the storm has minimal contribution!"
The above is from the National Hurricane Center brochure on storm surge. Unfortunately have lost link to pdf file. Another reason storm surge waries greatly in short distances is bottom slope....just like in tsunamis.
Low air pressure also plays a role.
At the center of a hurricane, air pressure is low. Low air pressure causes a slight bulge in the ocean, which adds to the mound of water that causes storm surge. Most of the water is piled up by wind, but about 5% of the mound is due to low air pressure.
Hurricanes are a whole professional study by themselves and in my experience, most people pass along a incorrect technical info, even if their lifetime of hurricane survival skills are pretty good.
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psneeld
Guru
https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/storms/what-causes-storm-surge
"Low air pressure also plays a role.
At the center of a hurricane, air pressure is low. Low air pressure causes a slight bulge in the ocean, which adds to the mound of water that causes storm surge. Most of the water is piled up by wind, but about 5% of the mound is due to low air pressure."
"Low air pressure also plays a role.
At the center of a hurricane, air pressure is low. Low air pressure causes a slight bulge in the ocean, which adds to the mound of water that causes storm surge. Most of the water is piled up by wind, but about 5% of the mound is due to low air pressure."
For some reason, surge has only recently been talked about with hurricanes. The NHC warnings and predictions like “peak surge” are fairly recent. Part of the reason for that, I believe, is that it is still an evolving study.
In Katrina, for example, we have plenty of forensic and photographic evidence of how high the surge got in different locations and it often makes no logical sense that I can figure out.
I do believe the topography of the ocean bottom is a major factor in how high the surge will get. It is an interesting thing to ride from Ocean Springs, to Waveland, Mississippi and see the actual surge heights in places that have memorialized them. (Much to the displeasure of local realtors!).
In Katrina, for example, we have plenty of forensic and photographic evidence of how high the surge got in different locations and it often makes no logical sense that I can figure out.
I do believe the topography of the ocean bottom is a major factor in how high the surge will get. It is an interesting thing to ride from Ocean Springs, to Waveland, Mississippi and see the actual surge heights in places that have memorialized them. (Much to the displeasure of local realtors!).
"most people pass along a incorrect technical info"
Definitely an accurate statement. For those that wish to get into much more detail and/or play with an interactive surge model here is a link...
https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/nationalsurge/?text
DCDC
Senior Member
Apologies Mr. Firefly. NOAA gauge data is in feet above MLLW. Here’s one from Mobile Bay, about half the size of Tampa Bay, relatively shallow and about 400 miles from Ian’s landfall. Ian has generated several days of 15-25 kn winds along the northern gulf coast which blew several feet of water out of the bay. Big storm!
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OldDan1943
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Lake St Claire is another example of water piling up on either the Canadian or US side depending upon the wind intensity and direction.
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