How to Value Repowered Engines

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TugLover

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I'm looking at two Tollycraft 40' Tri-Cabins, both the same vintage and in the same approximate condition. One has the original twin 1974 Cat 3208 engines with ~3,500 hours each. The other 1974 boat was repowered in 2006 to Yanmar 6LPA-STP engines, which have ~750 hours on them.

The seller of the boat with the Yanmars is asking $35,000 more than boat with the original Cat 3208s. That seems like a large premium. But a surveyor I know says he wouldn't pay more than a $7-10K premium for the newer engines. That seems like a very conservative premium.

What's the right way to think about the value of the newer Yanmars vs. the original Cat 3208s?

I'm not looking for a debate of Yanmars vs Cats, just more generically how to value repowered (but used) engines.
 
TugLover said:
I'm looking at two Tollycraft 40' Tri-Cabins, both the same vintage and in the same approximate condition. One has the original twin 1974 Cat 3208 engines with ~3,500 hours each. The other 1974 boat was repowered in 2006 to Yanmar 6LPA-STP engines, which have ~750 hours on them.

The seller of the boat with the Yanmars is asking $35,000 more than boat with the original Cat 3208s. That seems like a large premium. But a surveyor I know says he wouldn't pay more than a $7-10K premium for the newer engines. That seems like a very conservative premium.

What's the right way to think about the value of the newer Yanmars vs. the original Cat 3208s?

I'm not looking for a debate of Yanmars vs Cats, just more generically how to value repowered (but used) engines.
Click to expand...

Seems like a large premium. Oh, that is what you already decided.
I did a re-power. I now (21 years later) have engines with around 3000 hours, v the old engines, if I still had them, would have 6500 or so. I might ask more for a boat with 3000 than one with 6500, but I sure wouldn't ask $35000 more. There would need to be a lot of other things about the more expensive boat to make it worth while.
 
Are the newer engines higher powered than the older ones? And if so, were the older engines marginal for maintaining a good planing cruise without exceeding their max continuous rating? If the answer is yes to both, that likely increases the price differential for the repower, as it wouldn't just be newer engines, it would also be better matched engines.

The newer Yanmars are likely a little lighter and more efficient as well, so that boat may burn a bit less fuel.
 
Which vessel is in the best overall condition? A detailed first hand inspection should tell the tale. There may be much more to it than engine choices.
 
The larger 8-cyl Cat 3208s are 210hp each vs 315hp for the 6-cylinder Yanmars. That's a significant bump. However, the smaller Yanmars are turbocharged to get their higher HP, so they are definitely going to be working harder. However, I expect to cruise 8knots most of the time, not need to plane very much. The lighter and more efficient
Yanmars should be easier on fuel than the Cats. So, the Yanmars are probably operationally a better engine given my needs, but probably also a bit more complicated and expensive to maintain.
 
You are the only person who can assign a dollar value to the repower. $35K does seem on the high side.

My comments on a 40 Tolly tri cabin of that era are that V8s diesel or gas are a tight fit on that boat making maintenance and repairs on the outboard banks near impossible. The Cats good engines that they are, are now 47 yrs old. I assume that because the Cats are original the fuel tanks are as well. Should those Cats need to be replaced you may as well do the tanks at the same time. Should the tanks fail you may as well repower at the same time. That combined work will likely be north of $100K.

If the repower to Yanmar involved new tanks then put that into your calculus as well.

And on a 47 yr old boat you'll have a lot of other aging systems to address. For example wiring. Was any of that addressed during repower?

So many things to consider beyond newish Yanmars vs older Cats.

I'm on my 3rd old boat. One was a 73 Tolly tri.
 
Looking at those two boats, one at $73,000, the other at $110,000, I'd say they are both close to market value for what they are.

Also looking at the upgrades on the $110k boat the $35k difference might be easily enough accounted for.
 
If you can afford the repowered boat, I say go for it. The Cats are a decent engine but they are V8s so they take up a lot of room. Double the exhaust manifolds and elbows. Plus as they get older and older parts may become more difficult to find. The 370 hp Yanmars are supposed to be a good engine.
 
I guess I would pay a premium of about 25% of the value of the engine swap out. In other words if the new engines cost $50,000 to buy and install I would pay a premium of around $15,000 for that boat, all other things being equal.

On the other hand 3,500 hours on those Cats in the other boat is not an awful lot. Why pay any premium?

pete
 
1) The repower was 15 years ago.

2) The boat is SUPPOSED to have engines

The math is backwards. You don't add for something that is supposed to be there. You deduct as a result of its absence.

There is no longer any real intrinsic value remaining in a 15 year old repower, beyond the fact that the boat has working engines as compared to one without engines. The younger age and lower hours only serve the seller the opportunity to obtain more offers over a shorter period of time.
 
I would look at both boats and see how much room is in the engine room with bothe different engines, then think about working in the engine room...
 
Looking at the listings, I would buy the repowered one before the one with the older engines. The photos show a lot of upgrades and care in the Yanmar one and much less care on the one with Cats.

The transomless one scares me a bit. Hate to take a following sea and have it board and blow out the door to the cabin.
 
soin2la said:
The $35k also includes at least some of the owners claimed “$75k in upgrades” and in many ways these are not “like boats.”

Compare the listings:
$110k
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1972/tollycraft-tri-cabin-3690708/

$73k
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/tollycraft-tri-cabin-3732798/

As an aside this transomless Tolly is still trying to find a home.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/tollycraft-44-custom-restored-3708868/
Click to expand...

I was on the transom less vessel two years ago. It is an intriguing vessel with "new" stuff everywhere. The JD 6068 engines alone are worth the price of admission.
 
I’m a huge fan of the 40 Tolly and 3208’s. But the upgrades on the more expensive boat are crazy. That stainless rail and mast, just wow. Cost out those electronic controls and the list goes on.

While the yanmars are not new, you won’t be scot free on the 3208’s either. Expect expensive exhaust risers, might be best to just spend the $5k on stainless next time assuming prices have not gone up, plus maybe a head gasket or two given the age. So I’d budget $15k over the next decade and be happy if you don’t spend it all. Could be more, could be less.

While Yanmar would not have been my first choice, they are a good and supported engine. Beat them up over $400 worth of sketchy carpet and see if they take less. Gorgeous boat.

The 40 btw makes for a real nice cruise at the 8kt you stated. Comfortable boat and surprisingly nimble for its size. Easy to dock and single hand with the walk around. Cabins on opposite ends both with heads make for a pleasant stay with guests.

Sure, I’m biased. But I’m biased for a reason.
 
Last edited:
As was said before, the engines are supposed to be there, AND they are fifteen or so years old. I would look at them as if they are powered with engines of a similar age and then simply go with which boat is overall the best kept and maintained - no way am I going to hand over cash for a repower that old, well maybe a little. If these Yanmars are not of the exhaust valve recall serial numbers without the mod to keep them from swallowing valves, then they are OK to start the comparison between boats.
 
ghost said:
I’m a huge fan of the 40 Tolly and 3208’s. But the upgrades on the more expensive boat are crazy. That stainless rail and mast, just wow. Cost out those electronic controls and the list goes on.
Click to expand...
:thumb:
Then toss in new Kubota twin cylinder low rpm generator, 3 burner Force 10 range, Hurricane Hydronic heat plumbed to cabins, Head, Soles and block heaters and there is no comparing the two boats.

Vendor says he wants to deal, so try him out.

Here is the 1972 Tolly magazine:
http://www.mvjollymon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Tollycraft-Magazine-1972001.pdf
 
soin2la said:
:thumb:
Then toss in new Kubota twin cylinder low rpm generator, 3 burner Force 10 range, Hurricane Hydronic heat plumbed to cabins, Head, Soles and block heaters and there is no comparing the two boats.

Vendor says he wants to deal, so try him out.

Here is the 1972 Tolly magazine:
http://www.mvjollymon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Tollycraft-Magazine-1972001.pdf
Click to expand...

Good points and persuasive for me, on paper and with hopefully fresh photos. One persons new could be 10 years old though.
 
rgano said:
As was said before, the engines are supposed to be there, AND they are fifteen or so years old. I would look at them as if they are powered with engines of a similar age and then simply go with which boat is overall the best kept and maintained - no way am I going to hand over cash for a repower that old, well maybe a little. If these Yanmars are not of the exhaust valve recall serial numbers without the mod to keep them from swallowing valves, then they are OK to start the comparison between boats.
Click to expand...

I'd mostly agree, but with the 3208s being NA, the Yanmars hold some advantage in terms of being a better match for the boat (at least in my opinion). Plus they're narrower, so likely a bit easier to work on.

Basically, I wouldn't put much into the age difference between the engines, but more into which is the better engine for the boat.
 
rslifkin said:
I'd mostly agree, but with the 3208s being NA, the Yanmars hold some advantage in terms of being a better match for the boat (at least in my opinion). Plus they're narrower, so likely a bit easier to work on.



Basically, I wouldn't put much into the age difference between the engines, but more into which is the better engine for the boat.
Click to expand...



The same 210hp cats in my 48 at 13k pounds heavier will do 17 knots if one is so inclined. I suspect performance wise the two engine packages are fairly well matched given their 24 knot claim with the yanmars. As far as inline configuration over the rather large v8 cats, yeah, I’d like that now and again. The extra room must be nice.
 
soin2la said:
The $35k also includes at least some of the owners claimed “$75k in upgrades” and in many ways these are not “like boats.”

Compare the listings:
$110k
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1972/tollycraft-tri-cabin-3690708/

$73k
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/tollycraft-tri-cabin-3732798/

As an aside this transomless Tolly is still trying to find a home.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1970/tollycraft-44-custom-restored-3708868/
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely.

It's not simply the engines that make the difference between the two boats.

The more expensive boat has clearly had a attentitive owner that spent a lot of money upgrading the boat.

The other is just a generally well maintained boat.

My opinion is that the better maintained, better equipped boat is the better value.
 
I loved my 3208NA in my last boat but I wouldn't want to work on those two engines in the boat here in question. Hiring help to do the work would likely cost more too with the lack of space reducing the efficiency of the workmen? Personally, I always prefer naturally asperated engines to turbo's.

But, the two boats are apples and oranges comparison. The one for $110 appears in the pictures to be a better maintained and outfitted vessel? As for the 'upgraded' engines, I do not see that as the major value in this comparison alone. However, if it was me and I could afford the increased cost and willing to put it into a boat it would be a no brainer.
 
I just signed a conditional agreement on a 2007 boat that is really hard to tell from new. I wound up paying a bit of a premium for the boat's condition and low, low hours, however I feel it was well worth it for my situation. My age was a governor in my decision. I don't want to spend the effort or time refurbishing a boat that someone else neglected.
 
soin2la said:
Looking at those two boats, one at $73,000, the other at $110,000, I'd say they are both close to market value for what they are.

Also looking at the upgrades on the $110k boat the $35k difference might be easily enough accounted for.
Click to expand...

This.

Really simple, do you want to own a $75k boat or a $110k boat? Personally I would assume you’d be pouring more into the cheaper boat in the long run. My wife HATES the smoke around our 3208s at startup. For us the $35k differential would be a no brainer.
 
I believe the repowered vessel will return more of your capital when it becomes time to move her to a new caretaker. Last time I heard from a smart guy on the topic, the average ownership period for us is 4 years.
 
No question in my own mind, negotiate, but buy the Yanmar powered more expensive vessel provided of course it passes survey, etc.
 
TugLover said:
I'm looking at two Tollycraft 40' Tri-Cabins, both the same vintage and in the same approximate condition. One has the original twin 1974 Cat 3208 engines with ~3,500 hours each. The other 1974 boat was repowered in 2006 to Yanmar 6LPA-STP engines, which have ~750 hours on them.

The seller of the boat with the Yanmars is asking $35,000 more than boat with the original Cat 3208s. That seems like a large premium. But a surveyor I know says he wouldn't pay more than a $7-10K premium for the newer engines. That seems like a very conservative premium.

What's the right way to think about the value of the newer Yanmars vs. the original Cat 3208s?

I'm not looking for a debate of Yanmars vs Cats, just more generically how to value repowered (but used) engines.
Click to expand...
Welcome aboard!
 
I would go with the tried and true NA Cats, and avoid the much more complicated and high stressed Yanmars, I'm a firm believer in KISS where boats are concerned.
 
Is there not a point where one would be skeptical about the well respected 3208 nats? They are 50 years old!

Look at the newer boat...... probably had 3208 Cats in it as well originally. The previous owner had some sort of engine problem, and had many options..... rebuild, remans, repair, and total repower..... We all know about these options and we've all heard how financially unwise repowering is. Most of us with older boats dream about repowering if the time comes. Common advice is to avoid doing so, and buy a different boat. But this guy didn't take any of these options. He chose the expensive route. 700 hours and 7 years later, it's for sale, and we don't think these engines command a $37k premium compared to 50 year old Nats? I'm not buying it.

Do let us know what you decide; good luck!
 
ancora said:
I would go with the tried and true NA Cats, and avoid the much more complicated and high stressed Yanmars, I'm a firm believer in KISS where boats are concerned.
Click to expand...
But, but, ...you chose Volvos..which you hate...with a vengeance.

OP, tread very carefully with this advice.
 
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