Hello and question of 6pack license

[Richard Kagen]

Hello
We are in the process of buying a trawler for major travel on the East Coast and parts of the great loop. I have been boating nearly my whole life and feel very confident in taking on this challenge. That said, I am looking at taking the Captains License online. Anyone have experience with these providers? Is it worth it?

Thanks

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. What school are you referring to? There are a lot of them out there.

 

[Richard Kagen]

This one keeps coming up

https://www.marinerslearningsystem.com/courses/uscg-captains-license-courses

 

[guy with a boat]

Is it worth it from what standpoint? What are your motivations for considering a 6-pack license?

And welcome to TF.

 

[fgarriso]

Rules and Regs

Rules and Regs

 

[Juliet 15]

FWIW, I got all set to get my OUPV (6-pack) bcs I thought it would help with insurance. I checked with my then-insurance company and my current insurance company. Both said getting to would not change my rates. So I dropped the idea.

 

[LN-RTP]

Getting a license is good as it forces you to study and to learn the stuff.
I have always been getting a discount on insurance when operating strictly
for pleasure, but the last 6 years I have also been running charters: God for tax breaks
and good for income to help with boat expenses.
Some guys can do the self study, I prefer traditional class rooms.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: I'm strong behind any and all education and spending a week in a classroom learning can really boost your knowledge. Now you must examine your reasons. I think there are only really two good ones.

1-To enhance your knowledge, to learn. You'll learn from the teachers and likely from other students. That being said, right now I'd be very careful about any classroom and I'd ask what they're doing as Covid prevention.

2-You intend to do charters or to go on further with your licensing.

What it won't do is save you money on insurance. It also doesn't increase your liability, in spite of old boater tales. It also doesn't train you to be a great boater. However, it will give you additional knowledge and then if you keep working you'll be even better. I also recommend hands on training, perhaps even on the boat you find, emphasizing anything such as equipment that is new to you.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I believe it does confer a discount with some carriers, perhaps not for others.

 

[BandB]

I believe it does confer a discount with some carriers, perhaps not for others.

I've never known of it doing so. If someone does have actual experience with it doing so, I hope they can cite it. The experience and training does but that interests insurers more than license.

 

[Bacchus]

FWIW, I got all set to get my OUPV (6-pack) bcs I thought it would help with insurance. I checked with my then-insurance company and my current insurance company. Both said getting to would not change my rates. So I dropped the idea.

Taking a USPS (now ABC) / USCH Aux course will get you a discount with many carriers and an additional discount for continuing active membership in either.
I have had an insurer increase my area of coverage without charge based on no claims over an extended time frame.

 

[ranger58sb]

I believe it does confer a discount with some carriers, perhaps not for others.

I've never known of it doing so. If someone does have actual experience with it doing so, I hope they can cite it. The experience and training does but that interests insurers more than license.

Our carriers said we were already at max "experience" and "training" discounts, by the time I got my first MMC 10 years ago or so...

Maybe it just depends on how early one acquires a license relative to a boating lifetime.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

25 years ago, I did a 2-week/80-hour classroom prep course in advance of my 100T license. There is no way I could have passed without structured classroom commitment. There are some really esoteric questions on the exam that require brute rote memory learning.

My goal at the time was to simply offer close-quarter hands-on training on my boat, which I did. But it almost immediately led to a part time job as captain with a SF Bay dinner cruise company (later sold to Hornblower), and then to TrawlerFest presenter, and then to Delivery Skipper.

I had a lot of good luck along the way. But having my ticket was foundational in capitalizing on opportunity. Would have been a decent career had I continued in that direction.

Good luck. I was very proud when I passed my USCG exam and felt I was much more knowledgeable a mariner.

Peter

 

[Gdavid]

I can't speak to the experience of a online 6-pack class but I can for the in person, classroom offering from Sea School. I very much enjoyed the class and time spent with the instructor as well as the other students, honestly it was probably the most enjoyable part of the class. Everything mentioned above is true, there are a lot of questions on the CG test that an experienced recreational boater is just unlikely to know including the personnel deck qualifications (ratings) for big commercial. A structured classroom environment will make it much easier than sitting for the test, you also take a less extensive test than if you just sit for the CG test directly, the combination of classroom learning allows the schools to offer they own version of the test and you are not going to encounter any topics that the school did not cover.

I didn't see it mentioned, but logging your time and experience is one of the biggest hurtles for most as you need 365 days within 5 years. You can vouch for yourself if you own a boat but otherwise you need the vessel owner or operator to sign off on this. I suspect a lot of boaters fudge the numbers on this as it is a hard number to acquire when you are a seasonal, recreational boater. I was working on charter full time and it was still hard to come up with that many hours. Another hurtle for many aging boaters can be the physical, a transportation physical similar to a commercial truck driver is required, some older boaters with pre-existing conditions can find this to be a challenge depending on the physician doing the exam.

The renewal process is every 5 years and can be a bit of a pain in my opinion, I let mine lapse after renewing it once as I was not working full time in a marine industry and between the physical and logging hours, it just didn't seem worth it. Jurisdictions (states) or insurance that requires boating safety courses will accept an expired USCG license as an acceptable qualification. Most trawler owners tend to be old enough to be grandfathered in and not required these boater safety classes anyway.

The following is just here-say but sounds possible to me: A licensed captain is scrutinized to a greater extent if an accident occurs. I would be nervous about holding a license based on sketchy time logs in the case of an incident. I suspect it is the only time your experience would be scrutinized and perhaps creates an "out" for your insurance that wouldn't exist for a non-licensed captain.

 

[psneeld]

I really wonder how the "having a license can be a liability" got started and remains as a topic of conversation.

If the USCG gets involved, pretty sure they can only take action against your license....their jurisdiction.

If you hurt or kill somebody.... some prosecutor will come after you whether you have a license or not. So the tell is whether or not you did something that your additional training should have taught you not to do. But I would bet that a license without a lot of experience would really carry that much weight as all boaters are supposed to know the basics anyhow.


And beyond criminal court is civil where anyone can sue anybody else...licensed or not.

Sure good Samaritan laws are worded around one's capabilities, but again I think it's not the license that gets you in trouble....it's YOUR actions.

So I would bet that it's not the license that gets you in trouble but your actions leading up to the incident and how good of a defense you put up are way more critical than just the certification.

How a license affects your insurance is only what it says in your documents and whether the training gives you a discount... a phone call can clear that up...has in my case.


The link is about recreational incidents and licenses.



https://www.thelog.com/ask-the-atto...licenses-held-to-a-higher-liability-standard/

 

[Gdavid]

I really wonder how the "having a license can be a liability" got started and remains as a topic of conversation.

I did qualify the statement as "here-say" or maybe better described as dockside conjecture. Perhaps the biggest factor among my peers at the time was the risk of losing your ticket if something were to happen sometimes those things are outside of your control. For us, at the time, losing your credentials would mean losing your livelihood.

 

[psneeld]

Just bringing it up usually starts the discussion all over again.


I just try and point out what I have learned through the years for those that have "heard it" but never studied/researched it.

 

[Gdavid]

Just bringing it up usually starts the discussion all over again.


I just try and point out what I have learned through the years for those that have "heard it" but never studied/researched it.

Fair point, perhaps I just enjoy pontificating without any real expertise and enjoy the discussions more that I should. I find myself disagreeing with you on a regular basis but you are very agreeable (pleasant) to disagree with. That was a good link.

 

[Kapn]

I’ve always heard the ‘held to a higher standard’. It always seemed to be a valid reason but maybe it’s more of an excuse for not spending the time and money to get a license.
There’s a lot that I have forgotten since I got my license, but there’s still a lot I’ve probably remembered when the situation called for it.

 

[psneeld]

I’ve always heard the ‘held to a higher standard’. It always seemed to be a valid reason but maybe it’s more of an excuse for not spending the time and money to get a license.
There’s a lot that I have forgotten since I got my license, but there’s still a lot I’ve probably remembered when the situation called for it.

In some ways you are held to a higher standard...but if you think about it...look how high recreational boaters are when the USCG or some prosecutor starts spouting off their failure to strictly observe the Navrules (US for Colregs).


Once I was deposed in a civil suit when I was the Captain of an assistance tow vessel. Without details of the incident, 2 of the best civil damage attorneys in Atlantic City deposing me grabbed the Navrules handbook and started questioning me, trying to trip me up.



Well it may have very well worked with me or most captains most of he time...but I had just finished up 6 years of teaching 100T/assistance towing endorsement and prided myself in knowing the rules pretty well. After about 5 minutes for me referring them to the more correct rule to use, they tossed the book, said thank you and terminated the deposition. Never heard about that case again.



So my take away is, that yes...a captain or anyone may be grilled on their actions and whether your actions followed maritime rules and regulations. But....in the end...in civil cases may be whether you followed what a reasonable person would have done under the situation. The reasonable part is always variable based on many things....a USCG hearing evaluating your license...not so much on the reasonable end.


So to the OP, yes any further study on maritime requirements behooves the average boater. Because if it really hits the fan, you were better off knowing the rues and hopefully obeying them as even the recreational boater can be held to that standard. Ultimately it is how you are "painted" in court...with or without a license that will determine your fate. As far as the USCG, sure they can come after your license but if you are facing criminal court...ya really gonna worry about that" If you re, get professional license insurance and get some real pro lawyers on your team.

 

[Baker]

What about the actions of others followed by INACTION of the licensed captain? IOW, you are on a boat owned by someone with significantly less experience than you. Something happens and you don't do anything. People get hurt....boats damaged.

I only say this for the sake of discussion as it comes up in aviation circles. I know airplanes are a little diffferent because there is usually a second set of controls sitting right in front of you. But the topic does come up...not sure if there is any precedent on it though.

 

[psneeld]

In my opinion (again as all this really only gets decided at the hearing or the court)....


It really depends to what the infraction is. Is the skipper blind drunk? Is he not sounding proper sound signals? Is his wake to large in YOUR opinion?


He is the skipper of the boat and nothing in US boating law I know of says you can take control away from them. What you do and say to them may mitigate the problem if someone does come after you, and it does depend on what you were actually aware of.


In the military there are ways to relieve someone in command...but look at how hard that is. If you bring infractions to the operators attention...that's your job. The only time I would physically challenge or take the helm would be just before a certain impact. Another option would be a phone or radio call on the sly or even in front of them if no chance it would go too sideways for you.

 

[Ken E.]

I got a 6-pack license years ago because we were chartering boats at the time and it simplified the process with the charter company. And I do get a discount with my insurance company. Power squadron training will also get you a discount with my company.

 

[denverd0n]

Regarding the "you are held to a higher standard" argument...

Over the years I have repeatedly asked if anyone can provide real evidence that this has ever happened to anyone. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. No one has ever been able to come up with any court case where someone involved in recreational boating was held to a higher standard just because they happened to have a USCG license at the time.

Make of that what you will, but I do not believe -- even for one moment -- that the "you are held to a higher standard" argument is anything more than an old wives tale, and a complete myth.

 

[Hippocampus]

If you don’t know Colregs, lights and stuff like that and best learn via coursework it MAY be a reasonable expense. Looking at the abilities of past crew think the 6 pack is a worthless credential. Absolutely no correlation to capabilities. In fact more often a negative correlation than positive. Breeds an inflexibility that prevents further instruction in some. “I’m a licensed captain “ attitude.
If you need it for employment then you need it.
Continue to believe nothing teaches like experience. Especially supervised experience under a skilled mariner. Nothing assesses the value of that experience better than a scored practicum. Hence, hold yacht master as a more meaningful credential compared to the lower levels of US licensing. This is in marked distinction from the professional mariners holding multi ton tickets who are usually extremely skilled and avid to gain new skills on recreational platforms if they don’t already have them.
Look at learning diesel mechanics. Yes, it’s valuable to read and understand about diesels and probably a necessary first step. But have a diesel on a bench or in a boat with a skilled mechanic looking over your shoulder as you work through a service or diagnose a problem is another level of more intense learning. Between self attested hours and no practicum think the many available scored computor programs teaching colregs and the like are just as effective to learn those things for much shorter money. So unless you need that credential for work believe once you know those things either supervised (by hire or informally) experience is the greater gain. Throughout my adult life I’ve nearly always had a boat. Still, jumped on any occasion I could crew for others or have crew. There are 10 ways to do anything on a boat and 9 are wrong. That exposure to people who are more skilled than you and those situations that cause you to reassess your protocols help you learn. Yes, you need to learn the basics anyway you can. The things that are rote memorization. But interacting with people and picking up the pearls they lay before you and how they approach things is as valuable. That comes with time on the water and the desire to learn. Sounds like you have both.

Personally, still do courses in diesel, weather, electrical and such. Usually under a school aegis but sometimes not even in a maritime setting. Do do safety at sea periodically. Will start up in person courses again when it’s practical with Covid as some are physical skills and all teach more with access to back and forth chatting and questioning.
As regards legalities don’t know. That’s above my pay grade.

 

[Baker]

I have a buddy who is a Houston (harbor)Pilot. I know we are going off the topic here, but I bet he would have some good input. Pilots are required as you know. BUT the captain is still technically in command and can take over at anytime. Interestingly, incidents are not all that uncommon in Houston as it is pretty tight quarters maneuvering. They don't call it the "Texas Chicken" for nothing. He has been on a tanker...that got too close to a container ship....let's just say a few containers ended up on the deck of the tanker. Not much came of it that I know of. I do remember him having to go to hearings. It was a two pilot job and it was not his watch. Anyway, an interesting article linked below. Coincidently only wirtten a few days ago. It is pretty cool as it gives you a little insight into how the port operates and how dangerous the Houston Ship channel is. The article cites 29 collisions since 2018....some minor...some not so much...like the one in the article. Anyway, way off topic but related asit does get into who was at fault when there are multiple qualified parties involved. Those guys do make good money. But they earn it!!!

The video embedded in the article is quite sobering. My friend says when they crash, they are crashing for about 45 minutes...somewhat of an embellishment but they see it coming long before it happens and have little power to stop it...as you can see in this video and in the diagram.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/ne...en-ship-channel-chemical-tankers-16383760.php

 

[BandB]

The following is just here-say but sounds possible to me: A licensed captain is scrutinized to a greater extent if an accident occurs. I would be nervous about holding a license based on sketchy time logs in the case of an incident. I suspect it is the only time your experience would be scrutinized and perhaps creates an "out" for your insurance that wouldn't exist for a non-licensed captain.

It's worse than hearsay. It is 100% unsubstantiated rumor and just factually not true. License or no license, you're in charge of the operation of the boat. I keep seeing this comment and not one time ever have I seen any evidence it's true.

 

[Gdavid]

I really don't think you can go wrong taking it or really any class. And even if you don't have a need for the license or it doesn't benefit you for insurance, there is nothing that forces you to file the paperwork with the CG and actually receive the credentials. Taking the class in the middle of the winter is a good way to pass the time.

I would prioritize hands on training if you don't already have the experience, (you would probably benefit, even if you do). I find it slightly ironic that there is no practical demonstration required to obtain a CG license, your sea time may not include any helmsman experience at all and book knowledge certainly doesn't assure that you can safely dock any given boat. Imagine a truck driver or even automobile licensing that doesn't require a road test.

 

[alormaria]

You have a good idea. Get the training and the license as you are about take your family on a cruise that will test your skills. You are prudent to sharpen your knowledge just before such an event.



I did the exact same thing 20 years ago. I had been teaching USCGAUX boating classes for 10 years but still felt I could use a brush up before taking my family on a summer cruise up the northern loop. I chose Sea School's week long cram and exam for the OUPV license. It arrived in the mail just before we left. I've renewed 4 times since then. I never use the license but still have the knowledge.



"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

 

[dhays]

If I had the time, I would really enjoy the process of getting a license. I have no practical reason for wanting one other than the experience of improving my knowledge base. I’ve been on boats since I was a kid. Almost 60 years of boating experience simply means that I know what I know and can do what I can do. There is a lot more that I don’t know but only am familiar with. Then there is that huge amount of knowledge that I’ve somehow never been exposed to.

To the OP: Sounds like a great idea if you want the experience and can document the requisite sea hours.