Hello....my BIG assumption...

[Hippocampus]

Simi check out the price of a new Nordie and compare. Even he most expensive one (Arksen) is less. Artnautica even less than that. Both guard their prices so was dependent upon broker friends and others in the industry for out the door estimates. Was part of LLC building motorsailors. First budgeting past was weight per foot. Valid comparison might be a N51 to a Artnautica 65. Even comparing Turkish to French labor the N51 is more expensive.
I’ve not had a trip or passage on a long low displacement powerboat. Not in a position to offer a opinion. What I’ve read suggests ride is quite pleasant. Of course that maybe be hype but suspect not. The sailing sleds I’ve been on were a little jerky going to windward but quite nice at other points of sail.
Do agree available payload is important to the cruiser and nothing beats FD for that.

 

[mvweebles]

Again, you need to take into account price of admission

That long lean and light hull supplemented by hybrid and solar will cost many times more than a full displacement - even if building yourself or buying 2nd hand

Price difference buys a lifetime of diesel plus the heavyweight has extra comfort, space and load carrying ability.

Not just admission, but resale upon exit. And resale includes what will likely be a protracted sales' period with holding costs for off-brands, one-off builds, or over-improved boats (my beloved Willard 36 bring an example).

I'd guess a Nordhavn may have a very reasonable TCO when both ends of the ownership are considered. Hippocampus' Nordic Tug is likely another.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

Simi check out the price of a new Nordie and compare. Even he most expensive one (Arksen) is less. Artnautica even less than that. Was part of LLC building motorsailors. First budgeting past was weight per foot. Valid comparison might be a N51 to a Artnautica 65. Even comparing Turkish to French labor the N is more expensive.

Why does it always have to be a bloody Nordy?

Check out the price of a second hand FPB or Silent 55 compared to any number of excellent second hand 60 to 65 fters I can get for well under a million

FPB and Silent 55 because your long, light, hybrid brands are few and far between.

 

[Circumnavigator]

All generalizations are false, but these are pretty good. Purists forgive me -- not knowing how familiar our OP is with our vocabulary, I have used shoreside words in places.
-----
A trawler will be bigger inside than a sailboat of the same length. The reason is both simply the shape of the hull, and also that for part of her length the trawler will be double decked (that is, have two stories, one above the other) . The sailboat will not. The trawler will also be wider throughout, particularly at the stern. Our 42' trawler has a 15' beam and carries it almost all the way aft. The Swan 57 on which we sailed around the world has a 16' beam which narrows quite a bit at the stern.


Our 42' trawler has as much space inside as a 50' sailboat, but that isn't the whole story. The Swan 57 has more bedrooms, but the galley and saloon is smaller than on the trawler. The trawler has an enclosed stall shower in the master stateroom -- on the Swan if you take a shower, you get the whole bathroom wet (that's the case in the guest stateroom on the trawler). The whole master cabin is bigger on the trawler than the Swan -- more closet and drawer space, etc.


Also, sailboats generally take larger crews, so most production sailboats in the low 40' range have three bedrooms and sleep six. All the bedrooms are small. Most 40' trawlers have one or two bedrooms and sleep two or four.


As DDW has noted, for a given interior size, sailboats will have a greater draft. That's a particular problem if you have your heart set on the Bahamas.


Sails are not free and do not last forever. We wore out a suit on our circumnav -- it would cost upwards of $50,000 to replace today. So you can figure $1+ a mile for sails. Cruising a 40' powerboat at 6 knots, you could get 4 miles to the gallon, which even at today's prices would be around $1 per mile. I should also note that on our circumnav we motored a third of the time.


So unless you are thinking about going really long distances in places with dependable wind blowing your way, the fuel cost is a toss up.


I love to sail. I've done more than 40,000 miles under sail, racing and cruising. But, age and infirmity aside, I have to admit that there is a lot to be said for sitting inside in space that is rain and spray free, heated or cooled as needed, versus sitting out in the weather in a cockpit.

Jim

 

[Prairie Salt]

Interesting thread.

When we were in our early 30's we sold our house, cars, most of our 'stuff' and took off traveling. Amazing experience, but we have always regretted selling the house. It was hard getting going again financially and we are in a different spot than most our friends due to that experience....not to be interpreted as regrets, we are happy we did it and it positively shaped our lives in many ways.

I'm a self employed contractor and I may use money differently than those who work for others. We likely will never pay off our mortgage debts in our life time...but that's not the goal. Its about cash flow. I have some rentals and built a 870sqft suite above my garage that we also rent. The rents cover all the mortgages (including our own house) all bills, insurance etc... with a very tiny bit left over. Essentially the same as debt free, but building equity.

For us, a Trawler represents a second home in a warm climate. My greatest issue is buying something so expensive that is negative equity.....but that's when the emotional fun factor fills the fiscal gap.

 

[Simi 60]

.
My greatest issue is buying something so expensive that is negative equity.....but that's when the emotional fun factor fills the fiscal gap.

So don't.
Circumnavigators vessel above, Fintry, (looks to be sold now), but appeared to be a very capable vessel at a small fraction of the price of the oft touted Nordy or KK.

 

[Circumnavigator]

So don't.
Circumnavigators vessel above, Fintry, (looks to be sold now), but appeared to be a very capable vessel at a small fraction of the price of the oft touted Nordy or KK.

LOL Where were people who think like you for the two years Fintry was on the market? The numbers are that buying one of her sisters -- 50 year old boat -- and fitting her as Fintry is -- would cost around $1,000,000 if you did a lot of the work yourself, as I did on Fintry. A used production glass boat of that size in similar condition maybe two to three times that. Building new in steel, maybe $5,000,000. Fintry sold to a great couple for a little under the $350,000 asking price. Moral -- if you care about resale, buy a "white boat" (ie, a standard production boat).


Jim

 

[Prairie Salt]

So don't.
Circumnavigators vessel above, Fintry, (looks to be sold now), but appeared to be a very capable vessel at a small fraction of the price of the oft touted Nordy or KK.

Totally get it.

I have a 1961 Thunderbird convertible and people ask all time, "Wow, big motor, what does it get for milage".

"I have no idea".

 

[Simi 60]

Totally get it.

I have a 1961 Thunderbird convertible and people ask all time, "Wow, big motor, what does it get for milage".

"I have no idea".

Not quite the same point I was making.

 

[Simi 60]

LOL Where were people who think like you for the two years Fintry was on the market? The numbers are that buying one of her sisters -- 50 year old boat -- and fitting her as Fintry is -- would cost around $1,000,000 if you did a lot of the work yourself, as I did on Fintry. A used production glass boat of that size in similar condition maybe two to three times that. Building new in steel, maybe $5,000,000. Fintry sold to a great couple for a little under the $350,000 asking price.


Jim

Jim, if we didn't have our old girl we would have been all over her.
She ticks a lot of our boxes for sure

Moral -- if you care about resale, buy a "white boat" (ie, a standard production boat).

A whole new level of extra expense in purchase and maintenance if wanting to get your money back.

Every time we go in for a reprov in the tender we go past several "White Boats" around our sizeand they usually have at least one person on them polishing or doing something expensive.

Rarely get used, owners busy working to make more money for expensive boat and maintenance

 

[garbler]

Jim the Orbiter

I agree and to condense it into bite sized points let’s just say ‘ my trawler is more like my house and those sailboats are much different kind of weird ‘ . This is what sells plain and simple. You go on Yachtworld and run through most adds with lots of photos. You are walked through saloons and cushions, deck chairs in the cockpit, cabins with lots of cushions, bridges with lots of cushions. galleys and counter tops with cheese slicing boards, etc, then one or two very vague shots of the engine room, nothing in the lazarette showing steering gear, nothing in the chain locker or close ups of most windlasses, rarely views of the underbody. This sales approach apparently works with the targeted market.

Over the years marketing has been sucessfull in re-defining much of what we used to know or now know according to this industry. Let’s look at the terms semi-displacement and displacement hull. These terms are gradually morphing as builders offer different designs. Not saying it is bad but much different than it was forty years ago when most displacement hulls were commercial fish, converted com fish and heavier offshore yachts. But over the last forty to fifty years the line kept moving so that anything that wasn’t twin screw planing was either ‘ semi planing’ whatever that means and true planing.

But it doesn’t stop there. Years ago the furniture industry redefined what we buy as real wood furniture. They and teams of attorneys essential told us, the consumer, that if the furniture was made with real wood products using a certain percentage of glue and fillers it could be legally called ‘ Real Wood ‘ . So fiberboard and MDF are real woods ! Expect true solid wood to be redifined down the road as something like organic or heritage wood or who knows.

What about motor HP ever think about how a small 20# electric motor that years ago was rated 1/2 hp and the same size frame at your local box store is now 5 hp ? Well a team of those same guys again pushed to remove ‘ shaft horsepower ‘ from the marketed label. The new lighter 5 hp motor generates a theoretical rating with NO load on the shaft but once you place your finger on the turning shaft it drops drastically and under such a severe load. Service life well imagine. Now many are wondering about their Diesel engines well they too have a unloaded rating but most sell on brake or shaft horsepower but either way this information is available to the discerning buyer. I could go on for pages on fruits and vegetables sold as ‘ ripe ‘ and the nitrogen business. You get my drift, it’s all about marketing and the buyer not doing their homework. But honestly it’s sometimes almost impossible to penetrate the advertising cloak to find the truth. We’re all in the same boat —- no pun intended

Rick

 

[klee wyck]

Good points and its not an straightforward answer.



My concern is does looking out on the sunset get spoiled with constant generator sounds? Do we have to raise our voices to talk when cruising?

I think you are correct to consider the above seriously. My view is that noise above a very moderate level adds to the exhaustion of a long watch, decreases acuity of situational awareness somewhat, and subtracts from the pleasure of cruising or being present in places of natural beauty and other wise peaceful surroundings.
First, if your power supply is set up right there is very little need to run a generator for any significant length of time. You can enjoy that sunset without it in the background. In additional, a good generator set up can almost not be heard unless you are very close to it.
Then, it is also quite useful to have sound level at cruise as one of your criteria for choosing a boat. I like high quality, well insulated, quiet boats.
In both of my cruising boats the background sound level is between 56 and 58 decibels. For what that means, consult the following link:

https://audiology-web.s3.amazonaws....oster- 8.5x11.pdf_5399b289427535.32730330.pdf

There you go, good luck with your plan. Sound level matters.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Jim says a dollar a mile for eventual sail replacement on a circumnavigation.

He would know, he has done it. I wouldn't know, I have not done it.

BUT:

If he is right, OMG. Why would anyone ever sail?

pete

 

[Hippocampus]

Jim I’ve not done the clock and have the utmost respect for those like you who have but have thousands of miles under my keel and would note the following.
The North American market is distorted with the overwhelming majority of cruising boats being Clorox bottles. When encountering cruisers of other nationalities you tend to see more metal (Fe/Al) and even wood both traditional plank on frame or composite. Producing grp is oil and energy intensive. On the same level as Al even including smelting requirements. GRP is not recyclable and maintenance products are oil dependent as well. Price of grp will continue to rise. Even as demand for AL increases for cars and light trucks price escalation will likely be comparable.
One of my heroes is a local boy-Joshua Slocum. He could not accept a paradigm shift so lead a heroic but tragic life not being able to shift from sail to steam. I believe we are in a similar paradigm shift. Some will go through it kicking a screaming like the latency of the British navy accepting steam powered gun boats were a more effective tool for war and ships of the line were dinosaurs. Others will weather the storm on a more even keel. I will time out and be worm poop so think I’m ok with my plastic fantastic but if doing a new build would not do glass.
If international cruising again would still possibly entertain solid grp for sail but Al for power. Reason being total cost of running the boat and independence. Our sailboat had both 2 wind generators and two large panels. We spec’d with energy in mind. Things like DC watermaker, insulation, ventilation and all the little but cumulative details that mean independence from outside energy sources. Trawlers have large expanses of glass which mean more heating and cooling even with good shades. Trawlers have a lot of unnecessary spaces for the 95% of time it’s just mom and pop. So we were extremely comfortable in our boat and would burn gas only to go in for food. Like you slips only for short term storage or necessary servicing. The major efficiency of sail in my view has little to do with propulsion but rather much to do with much more efficient mechanisms ensure a excellent quality of life.
You imply I’m obsessed with long,lean, and light AL boats. I rather think that’s just one way of power transitioning into a more efficient life on the water. Very few boaters either in power or sail are cruisers. My comments have been directed to that small segment and those contemplating new builds. As regards your comments concerning cost of entry look at cost of a Al 78’XTP. I’ve used N and KK because they’re commonly accepted as excellent examples of long range cruisers. You’ve been on excellent boats as are many non grp boats posted here but they are a very small segment of the North American market. That may change.

 

[Itwasntme]

Having lived in The Bahamas and cruised there with both power and sail, I have a few thoughts which I think will be illuminating to the original poster.
As has been stated, there is little difference in actual cost between sail and motor yachts. . . as long as you are not crossing oceans. And also I agree you get much more space for your money with a motor yacht. I would not want to cruise with less than a 40' sailboat.
The big difference is what you mean by cruising. If one's goal is to travel from island to island, and especially get to know the less-well traveled Family Islands such as Acklins, Rum Cay, Cat Island, you will have slim pickings as far as finding reliable diesel supplies. In addition, since the prevailing wind is from the East/Northeast, and you are going south, you are going to get beam seas. They are much more tolerable in a sailboat than a powerboat, unless the powerboat has very good stabilizers. That also means that you will have smaller and fewer weather windows.
On the other hand, if you plan on, for example, going to the Abacos and staying at a marina or anchoring nearby , and hanging out there for a while, powerboat is the way to go.
Chandleries in The Bahamas are not very well stocked, either. Make sure as best you can that you have all the spares you need ahead of time.

 

[diver dave]

You also need to compare purchase price.

If you are going to bahamas for the price of say a 40 foot trawler, you can get 40+ catamaran.

My 38 cat did 5.5 kts on 1 engine using 0.5 gal hour. 7.5 kts using both engines at 1 gal hour. Sailed at between 5 and 12 kts.

3 staterooms, w heads, galley, large salon, large cockpit opening into saloon.

1.2 kw of solar so only needed generator for ac. Draws 3.75 feet. Cost a bit under 500.

I think this is the ideal boat for bahamas and carrib. Doesn't roll much when moving, doesn't swing much at anchor. If you crave that sailing feel, it is not the same as a mono. But still hard to beat that feeling of shutting down the engines and have the0 boat do 7 kts under the wind with no noise. At least for me.

That said:

Looking at power as it was lots of work to keep up, volume and size is large, and sailing is more work than motoring.

In our last thousand miles in the bahamas, just not seeing trawlers in the same numbers as decades ago. Same for monohull sailboats. Sailcats appear to be filling the gap.

 

[PierreR]

The bottom line is the annual costs and ultimate long-term experience for your boating plans.
Friends are asking me how I could possibly justify the 3 mpg expected fuel bills. The answer is simple, annual fuel costs not cost per mile. They get the message when I tell them I just paid cash for a second ocean front home. Let's compare dockage with property taxes and fuel bills with utilities and association fees. Insurance is a toss-up. We are not selling our primary residence. We have no debts; my wife still wants to work a couple more years and can take her job afloat.
I have a lot of mechanical skills, especially boat building skills so I bought a well depreciated well-built name brand boat in need of mostly TLC and not big item purchases. I paid for a thorough survey because I am too much of an optimist to evaluate a boat that flutters the heart. I should be well set to fulfill our plans.
The two big major items to solve is how to safely get my wife on and off the boat and same for a dingy. My wife has Ehler's Danlos type VI and III with very little proprioception. For that reason, sailing and sub 40' trawlers were ruled out. We sail cruised plenty when we were young.

 

[Brooksie]

My kids cruised from Cape Cod to Trinidad and back in a sailboat with a 15 hp outboard and spent nearly nothing on the boat or the whole trip for that matter over 3 years. I refer to it as "the million dollar education for 5K". While we were on that trip we saw plenty of money being spent but no one was having any more fun than we were.

 

[Lenny]

Bahamas bound

...Sailboats are cheaper than Trawlers.

Alright, I'm sure that's trigger way to start.

My wife and I live smack dab in the middle of Canada on the Prairies. We are in our 50's planning retirement and cruising Bahamas is high on our winter get away list.

My assumption was the motor cruisers would be hundreds of dollars a day to run. That would take the fun out of it. (talking just fuel, not the whole usage cost)

Having shopped for the last 6 months for sailboats some of my issues have been, interior space, power, draft, wife's knowledge of sailing, waiting for wind, running diesel anyway, etc....

The fact that Bahama's is largely sitting around and someone mentioning that sailing is the most expensive way to travel I came over the Trawler side of things and am very intrigued.

There are a lot of pluses!

Just a "Hello" as I won't ask a bunch of newby questions, but use the search button first.

See you in the forums!
Paul

We are planning to make our second trip to the bahamas and are also in the process of selling our motor yacht - a 1996 bayliner 4788 pilot house. We have lived on our boat for over 3 years . As we are getting into our 70’s we now choose to settle down near our grandchildren.. If you have any interest or questions about our boat, feel free to contact us at
540-420-0566 (Howard)

 

[Csellars]

I've had both. not significant cost difference unless you're crossing oceans. My motto is "If you want to cross oceans get a sail boat, if you are coastal cruising get a trawler"

 

[grandbanksbayfield]

Sail or Power

A 40 foot sailboat has fairly comfortable room for a couple. A good 30 - 40 hp will propel it at a good six knots with maybe 15 Nm per gallon?. We went to a Grand Banks 32 that has one 135 diesel, and is about a comfy as the 40 sailboat. It gets about 3.75 Nm per gallon at 7.2 knots. We miss being able to sail, but the cost of the fuel is about the least of costs when owning and operating such boats. Last year we figures 4 dollars per mile, now it is 6 per mile. Sailboats are better in beam seas than most motor yachts. In any case, staying away from the planeing boats keeps the costs down a lot. To see some videos go to YouTube and search for Motoring Into the Ontario North Channel -- and a bunch of videos on our cruising.

 

[Andiamo2018]

Wind is free. Diesel costs a lot. Period.

I love sailing and I have practiced enough to be able to single hand my 40ft sloop on and off most docks. I only use the engine (now an electric motor) when I have to for safety.

I ran a charter business for a few years during the winter months in PR. The 32 ft Tartan sloop I used didn't have a running engine. Spent maybe $500 on maintenance on the boat over 2 winters. Could most people do that? No way. But I liked it.

Need a shower? Go for a swim! Need to use the head? Go for a longer swim. Hungry? Non-refrigerated food only.

In SF when the inlaws came to visit did I take them sailing? Sure - for 2 hours. When they wanted a trip around the bay we took the trawler with 2 large cabins and heads, full galley, full sized fridge etc. And it cost way more than the sailboat and it was way more comfortable.

That most 'sailors' motor their boats from one place to another is a completely different issue.

 

[mvweebles]

Wind is free. Diesel costs a lot. Period.

I love sailing and I have practiced enough to be able to single hand my 40ft sloop on and off most docks. I only use the engine (now an electric motor) when I have to for safety.

I ran a charter business for a few years during the winter months in PR. The 32 ft Tartan sloop I used didn't have a running engine. Spent maybe $500 on maintenance on the boat over 2 winters. Could most people do that? No way. But I liked it.

Need a shower? Go for a swim! Need to use the head? Go for a longer swim. Hungry? Non-refrigerated food only.

In SF when the inlaws came to visit did I take them sailing? Sure - for 2 hours. When they wanted a trip around the bay we took the trawler with 2 large cabins and heads, full galley, full sized fridge etc. And it cost way more than the sailboat and it was way more comfortable.

That most 'sailors' motor their boats from one place to another is a completely different issue.

I have a soft spot in my heart for minimalist sail-cruisers like you describe. I followed Sailing Project Atticus for a while who were devotees of Lyn and Larry Pardee. But when they started to make some dough, curious thing happened. They sold their Allied 31 and bought a $200k Pacific Seacraft 40 and dumped another $100k into her. Instead of doing the work themselves, they hired it all out. All for the same "free wind" you've mentioned.

BTW- how do you like your Kha Shing Sundeck 40?

Peter

 

[Andiamo2018]

I have a soft spot in my heart for minimalist sail-cruisers like you describe. I followed Sailing Project Atticus for a while who were devotees of Lyn and Larry Pardee. But when they started to make some dough, curious thing happened. They sold their Allied 31 and bought a $200k Pacific Seacraft 40 and dumped another $100k into her. Instead of doing the work themselves, they hired it all out. All for the same "free wind" you've mentioned.

BTW- how do you like your Kha Shing 40?

Peter

Love the Kha Shing! I have found it to be very solid and fortunately it was kept up well for most of its life. Never taken it more than a few miles offshore but in SF bay and the delta it has been great.

I got some dough and my mahogany strip planked sailboat now is cold molded with AlexSeal paint, all electric drive, new bulkheads, new cockpit and new main. Only cost twice what I thought it would and I did all the work lol.

 

[Andiamo2018]

I have a soft spot in my heart for minimalist sail-cruisers like you describe. I followed Sailing Project Atticus for a while who were devotees of Lyn and Larry Pardee. But when they started to make some dough, curious thing happened. They sold their Allied 31 and bought a $200k Pacific Seacraft 40 and dumped another $100k into her. Instead of doing the work themselves, they hired it all out. All for the same "free wind" you've mentioned.

BTW- how do you like your Kha Shing Sundeck 40?

Peter

Check out these guys: https://youtu.be/LpWgH9_iZDM

You can see Feral, my boat with the canoe stern, in the background for a few seconds. This couple is fun to follow and after spending a few months getting to know them I can vouch for their authenticity. Just a really cool couple.

 

[Simi 60]

Wind is free. Diesel costs a lot. Period.

.

The "free" wind was going to cost $100,000+ to harness on the last boat I built
That was a boat that would have had actual comfort and amenities which your sailboat comparison clearly does not

It has 2 diesels in it anyways and $100,000+ buys a lot of fuel.
Diesel is cheap in comparison

 

[rgano]

One of the costs unique to sailboats is that of the standing and running rigging. Just cost out a standing rigging replacement on whatever schedule you would think suitable to see a real difference in power and sailboating.

Sitting one my lowly powerboat in an anchorage beset by a raging lightning storm (prevalent here in the south), I am always a bit happy to see any sailboat nearby with those tall lightning rods. I am sure strikes have something to do the occasional need to check on that expensive standing rigging......

Bye the bye, welcome aboard with that clever intro.

 

[Prairie Salt]

One of the costs unique to sailboats is that of the standing and running rigging. Just cost out a standing rigging replacement on whatever schedule you would think suitable to see a real difference in power and sailboating.

Sitting one my lowly powerboat in an anchorage beset by a raging lightning storm (prevalent here in the south), I am always a bit happy to see any sailboat nearby with those tall lightning rods. I am sure strikes have something to do the occasional need to check on that expensive standing rigging......

Bye the bye, welcome aboard with that clever intro.

....Its been a good read!

 

[PierreR]

One of the costs unique to sailboats is that of the standing and running rigging. Just cost out a standing rigging replacement on whatever schedule you would think suitable to see a real difference in power and sailboating.

Sitting one my lowly powerboat in an anchorage beset by a raging lightning storm (prevalent here in the south), I am always a bit happy to see any sailboat nearby with those tall lightning rods. I am sure strikes have something to do the occasional need to check on that expensive standing rigging......

Bye the bye, welcome aboard with that clever intro.

Hit three times by lightning. Knocked flat the last time from the shock. I am trawler all the way with lighting protection. Still want to hide.

 

[HopCar]

To decide if you want a sailboat or a powerboat, ask yourself if you agree with this statement. “The wind is free and everything else should be.” If you agree with that statement, you’re a natural born sailboat guy.