Heating

[OldDan1943]

I see these wonderful oil stoves, look around my AT34 and realize I dont have any wall space. If I take out the washer/dryer cabinet I would have the wall space but I'm in south FL and need the washer/dryer more than I need an oil heater.

Lesson learned today; I cannot run the aft resistance heater (the smaller heater) and the micro wave at the same time. LOL

 

[OldDan1943]

By far the most efficient pleasant option.. I have a larger model with cook top and oven, very nice on a cold rainy day. Another big plus is No noise, no electrical required. I am in NE Canada, so it gets used…

I worked as a forester in Woods Buffalo National Park, way up in the NE corner of Alberta. In the winter, the diesel for heating had to be kept inside. The tanks would be refreshed as necessary, a little at a time. The cook stove was, I am told, butane.

 

[Mac2]

By far the most efficient pleasant option.. I have a larger model with cook top and oven, very nice on a cold rainy day. Another big plus is No noise, no electrical required. I am in NE Canada, so it gets used…

Totally agree. I had the dickinson floor mounted version (Alaskan) on my Manatee. I also installed the heat exchanger in the exhaust pipe, which doubled the heat output for a very small price. I loved seeing the flames. I also installed the Webasto TSL 17 along with a red dot heater. I like anchoring out in the winter. The red dot was already on the boat, but not working. Hindsight, I would not have fixed it. It produced heat in the saloon only. If I were to turn it on, I would have the other heater(s) on, which would negate the need for the red dot.
The only other thing I would mention, and hasn't been talked about yet, is the diesel smell of the dickinson stove(s). Diesel is dripped into the stove, which in turn, permeates everything. I didn't notice it till I left the boat. My boat bag and contents would smell of diesel for weeks after I left the boat. I didn't mind, but the wife didn't care for it much. The hydronic and red dot did not produce a diesel smell.

 

[tiltrider1]

If you like the traditional appearance of bulkhead heaters, there are of course diesel versions (Dickenson shown below), and also Force 10 produced a propane version thar a friend installed on his Cal 31 sailboat. Worked well, vent stack is 1-inch so doesn't require a massive hole. I think it's 6000 Btu so fairly modest. Also relatively small compared to diesel. Works well for shoulder seasons and easy to install. Proper precautions for propane a must, of course.

Peter View attachment 132185View attachment 132186

These systems work well for boats under 40’. Their weakness comes when you have multiple cabins and decks. It’s like trying to heat a 2000 sqft. house with a wood stove in the living room. However, it might be a viable option for tHe OP.

 

[O C Diver]

Underway I use 3 bus style heaters off engine coolant loop. That may be converted to run through a plate heat exchanger this winter.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums...ine-coolant-another-project-thread-53386.html

At anchor I use 3 reverse cycle heat pump air conditioners off the generator.

For sleeping I use an electric blanket off of my inverter. Power consumption is usually 15 to 30 watts.


My recommendation is to be realistic about how much you will actually use it. I used my bus heaters a fair amount this summer as I was cruising lake Superior in July and August. The electric blanket was used a fair amount also. The reverse cycle heat was used probably less than 20 hours at anchor. While the reverse cycle is the least cost effective, its use is so minimal that it doesn't warrant spending a boat unit or more to burn less fuel.

Ted

 

[Mako]

Living in Seattle and SoCal at dock, I used the old electric resistance heaters. They were 100% silent, no moving parts, put out nice heat, started an electric fire in the 40 year old wiring, smoke detectors went off, woke me up, got a chance to practice using a fire extinguisher.

Yep they were perfect

 

[Hippocampus]

Think my current hydronic espar
120w at start up high 40 w low 12w
0.72 to 3.2 L/h diesel consumption

Generally needed upon waking up and late evening or when water temperature is real low. Current boat has AGMs for everything except the house. They are golf carts. So far so good. Will run the genset up to float before going to sleep if solar or alternator hasn’t got us there already. Boats are small without a lot of air movement and loss at night but hulls commonly not insulated. All in all seems the furnace rarely goes on. Volume of coolant circulated is small as well on most boats. Think above numbers probably at the low range for most of us. Neither fuel or electrical consumption has been an issue yet on either boat. They run off a thermostat so use what you need. Consumption is when running with occasional burst to keep coolant hot.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

If you have diesel aboard, a Chinese diesel heater is going to be the most cost efficient and likely the simplest installation. If the boat is large, spend another $150 and get a second heater. Installation design will be the challenge for whether it is fantastic or just okay. The heaters often come in "kits" that wont likely have all the fittings/parts needed. I replaced my Webasto with a Chinese unit when I found out the price of Webasto parts. But I still needed the several "Y"s and registers to upgrade the single point source installed by the prior owner (maybe another $100 in fittings). My registers can be closed (except for one that must always remain open) so that the heat can be directed. Probably most important was a DIY muffler for the exhaust. I don't know if mine is the quietest heater available, but since it is silent, it doesn't much matter. We have left it on over night at anchor in freezing weather, but much prefer our comfy and safe down comforter. The heater came with a remote control, so we turn it on in the morning from bed, snooze a little, and get up to a warm cabin. Combustion air is drawn through the engine room vents, so the cabin has positive pressure of dry warm air, helping minimize condensation.

After a couple minutes getting the glow plug hot (a $15 part instead of Websto $150) at 10 Amps, it blows full tilt at 3 Amps, then down to idle at about 1A for the rest of the day. If we ever got too hot, I suppose we could open a window. I would be surprised if we have ever burned more than a liter a day.

 

[Mambo42]

I have a Kabola diesel heater in my boat, which acts like a normal central heating in a house. In all the spaces on board I have radiators, which are connected to the central heating, so I can just open or close the radiator and select the temperature I prefer. The thermostat is located in the salon, so in winter time the boat is perfectly warm, I hate cold weather and I hate being cold (lol).
On top of that I have 3 dometic air conditioners that can also provide warm air, which I sometimes use in autumn, when it is getting colder in the evenings, but not yet too cold that I need the diesel heater. These airco's do however have a heavy drain on the batteries, the Kabola heater has almost no drain at all and it hardly uses any diesel.

Another good part about Kabola is that they have service stations in many countries, so having it serviced once a year is very easy, does not matter where I am.

Bad part about installing a central heating system is that it is a lot of work and thus a costly affair. But if you live on board I can highly recommend it, it is absolutely worth the hasle.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think my numbers are close to yours MF from looking at the panel with and without. Not what I posted.

 

[jclays]

I’m looking at the Mr Buddy portable heater. Limited on wall space and I don’t want to change the system on my boat. It works quite well on shore power or with the genset running. I don’t want to run the genset unless absolutely necessary. I hate the noise and exhaust. On the moorings can’t run the genset after quiet time. I can use the portable up in the salon and take it down to the stateroom when I go to sleep. I don’t need to heat the whole boat. Thanks to all for the in put.

 

[OldDan1943]

They do make 12 vt electric blankets.
These are examples here. Just continue the internet search. They are out there.

https://www.12volt-travel.com/12-volt-electric-blankets-c-90.html

 

[Labrador Coaster]

Totally agree. I had the dickinson floor mounted version (Alaskan) on my Manatee. I also installed the heat exchanger in the exhaust pipe, which doubled the heat output for a very small price. I loved seeing the flames. I also installed the Webasto TSL 17 along with a red dot heater. I like anchoring out in the winter. The red dot was already on the boat, but not working. Hindsight, I would not have fixed it. It produced heat in the saloon only. If I were to turn it on, I would have the other heater(s) on, which would negate the need for the red dot.
The only other thing I would mention, and hasn't been talked about yet, is the diesel smell of the dickinson stove(s). Diesel is dripped into the stove, which in turn, permeates everything. I didn't notice it till I left the boat. My boat bag and contents would smell of diesel for weeks after I left the boat. I didn't mind, but the wife didn't care for it much. The hydronic and red dot did not produce a diesel smell.

I hear ya on the smell, ditto on the wife not being crazy about it also. Even food like bread will adsorb the odour. Good thing is that you will only notice it when you go ashore! Truth be told, I figure part of that smell for my first boat came from the hot diesel motor just under the floor boards in the wheel house. The new boat has a WEBASTO. Untested so far.. I am gonna give it a go. But am preparing for a second unit, and dollars to donuts, it will be a diesel stove.

 

[EngNate]

I've put in and/or serviced quite a few, cheap Chinese, Russian, Espar, Webasto, Hurricane and Kabola. Of course I like the better units, but all of them by and large tend to be high maintenance, and one has to be fairly skilled to work on them. So, I've got a customer with a 46 that wants heat and I'm considering two or maybe three of the small Chinese units, with another stowed for a spare. It is within the owner's abilities to swap one out, and well within his budget to keep a spare or two.

The thing I recommend with these is buy exhaust tubing from an Espar or Webasto dealer or other quality supplier. You will see that it has thicker wall than the Chinese stuff which rots out pretty quickly.

 

[Spinner]

Here’s one more vote for Espar diesel heaters. That’s my heat source most of the time. The only exception is when we get the rare deep freeze and my boat is at the dock. Then I use the built in electric heaters. They do result in high electric bills, so I don’t keep them running except when really needed.

I don’t run the Espar heater when I’m not onboard, nor do I run it at night, even in the winter. I have down comforters and wool blankets - I am quite toasty! That sprint to turn on the heat in the morning, though …!

 

[OldDan1943]

Spinner While you are up, start the coffee too, please.

I rely on blankets...... Even when it it hot out, I like the weight of the blankets.

 

[Hippocampus]

Sue correct me if I’m wrong but think espar hydronic was the listed option for nordic tugs.

 

[Spinner]

Sue correct me if I’m wrong but think espar hydronic was the listed option for nordic tugs.

That would have been sweet! I am the second owner of my 2003, and my heat is just ordinary espar diesel forced air.

Old Dan, coffee is on!

 

[Portage_Bay]

I’m looking at the Mr Buddy portable heater. Limited on wall space and I don’t want to change the system on my boat. It works quite well on shore power or with the genset running. I don’t want to run the genset unless absolutely necessary. I hate the noise and exhaust. On the moorings can’t run the genset after quiet time. I can use the portable up in the salon and take it down to the stateroom when I go to sleep. I don’t need to heat the whole boat. Thanks to all for the in put.

Please re-read my post #18. I got the name wrong calling it Little Buddy. It was the Mr Buddy, the one that uses a 1 lb disposable cylinder. My experience was the winter of 2016. Hopefully they've improved the product since then. I am not propane averse, we use it for cooking and outside grilling. I won't run propane burning appliances unattended or while sleeping.

In addition to the safety concerns it goes through a lot of propane. Unless you adapt it to bigger tanks you'll be carrying a lot of 1 lb cylinders or refilling, another significant safety risk, from your your bigger tank(s).

 

[EngNate]

According to this, electric heat will cost less than diesel when dock power is available. Savings will be higher with a heat pump.

Espar D4:

Fuel consumption .56L/Hr at rated output 4300 Watts (It isn't specified if that's net or includes what goes out the exhaust.)

Here in BC at least, if the marina meters your power they cannot mark it up, only recover the cost.

That's CA$ 0.126 / KwH, plus a 'demand charge' calculated on the peak demand of the whole place. It adds a little which obviously varies, plus how the marina divides it up. I will estimate it at .024 and call the total .15/KwH.

$0.15 x 4.3 = $0.645 in electricity for 4300 Watt-hours (an electric heating element is 100% efficient.)

You would have to get diesel for $1.15/L to beat this cost.

In U$ that'd be roughly $.49 in electricity and $3.30 a gallon

 

[Mako]

The only other thing I would mention, and hasn't been talked about yet, is the diesel smell of the dickinson stove(s). Diesel is dripped into the stove, which in turn, permeates everything. I didn't notice it till I left the boat. My boat bag and contents would smell of diesel for weeks after I left the boat.

I haven’t read of that issue from others. Possibly there something related to your installation. Or maybe the stove was old and the various seals were leaking the smell?

What you describe is not acceptable and there are thousands of these bulkhead heaters out there.

 

[Bmarler]

According to this, electric heat will cost less than diesel when dock power is available. Savings will be higher with a heat pump.

Espar D4:

Fuel consumption .56L/Hr at rated output 4300 Watts (It isn't specified if that's net or includes what goes out the exhaust.)

Here in BC at least, if the marina meters your power they cannot mark it up, only recover the cost.

That's CA$ 0.126 / KwH, plus a 'demand charge' calculated on the peak demand of the whole place. It adds a little which obviously varies, plus how the marina divides it up. I will estimate it at .024 and call the total .15/KwH.

$0.15 x 4.3 = $0.645 in electricity for 4300 Watt-hours (an electric heating element is 100% efficient.)

You would have to get diesel for $1.15/L to beat this cost.

In U$ that'd be roughly $.49 in electricity and $3.30 a gallon

You are correct that electric heat while on shore power is more cost effective. But where were at in the pnw it’s a bit too cold for those little heaters to keep up. Most of us don’t have ac, so no heat pump either.
30 amps will only get you so far, so diesel heat is really the most comfortable option.
I’ve lived aboard for decades, and I use espar heat. Hydronic now, but forced air in the past. Very satisfied with it.
On the fishing boats we used dickensen cook stoves for heat. Very effective heat, but not good for summer cooking use. Long heatup and cool down time on those. More practical to keep them running 24/7.
Never had a diesel smell in the cabin. Fish smell, sure…

 

[mvweebles]

I haven’t read of that issue from others. Possibly there something related to your installation. Or maybe the stove was old and the various seals were leaking the smell?



What you describe is not acceptable and there are thousands of these bulkhead heaters out there.

I agree. I used a 17k Btu bulkhead model for years. I had problem with back-puffing, but the fuel burns completely. I used a small corner of TP dipped in a few drops of lamp oil to light the heater.

Back puffing can extinguish the flame which be quite dangerous as diesel keeps dripping yet the chamber is still red hot. Creates a LOT of vaporized diesel which will smell for a long time. But this is not a normal operating conditions. For this reason, I am hesitant to leave the heater on overnight, certainly not leave the heater unattended.

That said, when working properly, diesel heaters are a wonderfully traditional heat source. Doesn't circulate well, but I sure like them when working.

Of course, my preferred heating option was to move to Florida.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Beyond electrical draw reverse AC has one major limitation. It’s dependent on a reasonable water temperature. Although it continues to work as water temp falls it becomes progressive less efficient. You don’t need to be in artic waters for this to be an issue nor it be winter. Even in New England during the late fall and early spring in a 42’ boat with three units it doesn’t cut the mustard. Then will go to hydronic and be toasty comfy. Other useful thing about hydronic is unlimited hot domestic water and ability to use waste engine heat. Think for full time cruising have both hydronic and reverse has definite advantages. If I was doing another new build would likely go with refleks and hydronic loops off it will additional heat exchanger off the engine plus reverse AC.

 

[rslifkin]

According to this, electric heat will cost less than diesel when dock power is available. Savings will be higher with a heat pump.

Espar D4:

Fuel consumption .56L/Hr at rated output 4300 Watts (It isn't specified if that's net or includes what goes out the exhaust.)

Here in BC at least, if the marina meters your power they cannot mark it up, only recover the cost.

That's CA$ 0.126 / KwH, plus a 'demand charge' calculated on the peak demand of the whole place. It adds a little which obviously varies, plus how the marina divides it up. I will estimate it at .024 and call the total .15/KwH.

$0.15 x 4.3 = $0.645 in electricity for 4300 Watt-hours (an electric heating element is 100% efficient.)

You would have to get diesel for $1.15/L to beat this cost.

In U$ that'd be roughly $.49 in electricity and $3.30 a gallon

And for those of us with reverse cycle A/C and a marina that doesn't charge for power usage, using the heat pumps at the dock is a no brainer as long as the water is warm enough. Mine works well enough down to about 40* water. Not sure I've ever tried it colder, but it won't get too much lower before things freeze up.



But once away from the dock, diesel heat is quieter and cheaper to run than running a generator 24/7 to power the heat pumps.

 

[OldDan1943]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of bus heaters for underway use, zone heating with thermostic valves. And if you are in the frozen even during the day. It would require a method of heating the water when tied to the dock and during the night. Also a circulating water pump too.
Already, I have the engine piped to heat water for domestic use.

 

[rslifkin]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of bus heaters for underway use, zone heating with thermostic valves. And if you are in the frozen even during the day. It would require a method of heating the water when tied to the dock and during the night. Also a circulating water pump too.
Already, I have the engine piped to heat water for domestic use.

If you add a hydronic diesel heat setup, you could easily put a heat exchanger in the loop to an engine to heat the whole system with free engine heat while underway and save some furnace runtime (and fuel).

 

[Labrador Coaster]

The location of our cruising grounds I would think play a huge part. AC heat pump I’m told just not produce enough heat for NE or NW Canada, where the water is colder than the south. As the other fellows just mentioned, bus heaters are great, very powerful and use free engine heat. I would think that combining that rig with a hydroponic heating system would be the way to go for cool/cold climates, transferring heat by water still remains a very efficient way of moving heat around, think small hose vs. Air ducts..And using the largest energy source aboard, ie: diesel, to me just makes sense, if you need heat frequently aboard..

 

[Mac2]

I haven’t read of that issue from others. Possibly there something related to your installation. Or maybe the stove was old and the various seals were leaking the smell?

What you describe is not acceptable and there are thousands of these bulkhead heaters out there.

My statement was in regards to the model I had-floor mounted Alaskan. I don't have any experience with the bulkhead versions. On my version, raw diesel sits in a bowl at the bottom of the stove. The gasket could definitely have been a problem. It was a hard material. The viewing window/door had a small thumb screw to seal the door. I never felt it had a real positive seal. Keep in mind, I never smelled the diesel when in use. I only smelled it after I left the boat and it had permeated my clothes and boat bag. In no way would I get rid of that stove because of the smell. I loved the ambiance and the amount of heat it put out.

 

[O C Diver]

Beyond electrical draw reverse AC has one major limitation. It’s dependent on a reasonable water temperature. Although it continues to work as water temp falls it becomes progressive less efficient. You don’t need to be in artic waters for this to be an issue nor it be winter. Even in New England during the late fall and early spring in a 42’ boat with three units it doesn’t cut the mustard. Then will go to hydronic and be toasty comfy. Other useful thing about hydronic is unlimited hot domestic water and ability to use waste engine heat. Think for full time cruising have both hydronic and reverse has definite advantages. If I was doing another new build would likely go with refleks and hydronic loops off it will additional heat exchanger off the engine plus reverse AC.

Reverse cycle heat pump performance is somewhat unit dependent and water flow significant. My three 12,000 BTU Webasto units kept my boat comfortable down to about 38 degree water temperature. Below 35 degrees, output BTUs were seriously diminishing.

Water flow per unit is also critical. If I were installing units for sub 40 water temperature, each unit would have its own water pump with a 10 GPM output.

Ted