Economy and second thoughts...

[O C Diver]

Some good points Ted and having a consumption display is a nice tool to have. Not sure if you deal with much current where you are, but does it make sense to speed up some when traveling against a current? My thinking is that at 6.5 knts, a significant current is going to affect your speed over ground and lengthen your time so at some point it might pay to burn more fuel to get out of the current quicker?

Because of the huge fuel consumption difference between 6.5 knots (1.5 GPH) and 8 knots (3.7 GPH), the opposing current would need to be above 5 knots to make the higher speed more economical. A 3 knot tidal current usually has me waiting till it reverses. I have opposed a 4 knot tidal current going through a narrow bridge opening and can tell you it's a white knuckle experience. I'm retired and patient. At 3 knots, I go with the flow, not against it.

Ted

 

[smitty477]

I think the initiation fee is $500. There is a work requirement of 12 hours/year. Both pretty trivial in the scheme of things. The $500 is only for the initial application. The work hours are very easy to accomplish in the course of a year, there are lots of ways to earn them. The membership also includes a $500 credit to use at the club restaurant which is BYOB, so $500 buys a number of good dinners during the season. So you could call that a "required spend" as it's built into the membership fee. I don't see that as a burden. There's also a $15 fee for all the ice you can use in a year.

This describes highly unusual costs for a slip - and therefore it will lead to highly unusual split of costs for fuel.

 

[NEtrawler58]

This describes highly unusual costs for a slip - and therefore it will lead to highly unusual split of costs for fuel.

Correct, that why I say not everyone fits the same cost model. Yacht clubs in my area have always been much lower cost for slips and moorings than regular marinas. They also normally have lower prices for food and drinks if they have a bar and restaurant. Still many people prefer the large marinas and the larger fee to get better facilities. That's not true in every case, but a generalization. Also some people just don't bother looking into a yacht club for whatever reason.

 

[sunchaser]

For those of us who log many thousands of miles per year the two biggest fuel savings areas are as mentioned optimizing fuel efficient VMG and reducing distance traveled to maybe 1/2 or so. That said, for low mileage travelers saving many thousands per year on fuel would be nigh impossible.

 

[smitty477]

Correct, that why I say not everyone fits the same cost model. Yacht clubs in my area have always been much lower cost for slips and moorings than regular marinas. They also normally have lower prices for food and drinks if they have a bar and restaurant. Still many people prefer the large marinas and the larger fee to get better facilities. That's not true in every case, but a generalization. Also some people just don't bother looking into a yacht club for whatever reason.

The only costs we saw near those were up the Hudson river and some of those have disappeared as well. Of course when cruising away from those sites the typical costs rise greatly ....so when considering overall seasonal costs they rise if/when one does any extensive cruising.

 

[NEtrawler58]

The only costs we saw near those were up the Hudson river and some of those have disappeared as well. Of course when cruising away from those sites the typical costs rise greatly ....so when considering overall seasonal costs they rise if/when one does any extensive cruising.

I agree if you are talking about marinas, you are not going to find similar prices to a club. Most clubs I know about are well over 100 years old, so not likely going away time soon I would think.

 

[smitty477]

I agree if you are talking about marinas, you are not going to find similar prices to a club. Most clubs I know about are well over 100 years old, so not likely going away time soon I would think.

The 'trigger' we have seen for clubs disappearing over the years is typically environmental.

If fuel is a large part of some ones boating budget and the prices are if concern I would suggest they consider getting out now.
Boats are selling fast at higher prices at this time so it would likely be a prudent move.

 

[Shrew]

I assume your finances are based on yearly, monthly and weekly avg's for income and expenses. You have two variables (Money and Time). Right now, you're really only looking at one of them.

1) Move less frequently and stay in any one place longer. Your fuel expenses are budgeted for the month, so only move as far as your budget allows in any one month. That means less travel hours in a month. This requires spending more time sitting in each location.

2) Anchor out more. This is the only way #1 (Above) works. You can't spend money on the slip trying to save for fuel.

3) Eat out less. (fairly obvious)

4) drink out less (or not at all). #3 and #4 are probably our largest money pit.

5) Food Expenses: Skip the $28/lb rib eye and get the chicken, or ground beef at the grocery store. Skip the beer and drink booze. Move down a shelf in the liquor aisle.

We basically spent 6+ weeks in one location in 2020 and 10+ weeks in one location in 2022. The slow pace of just sitting around is the cruising.

 

[Wildbill]

It's all relative

Just 2 cents from a lurker I recently bought a new to me boat, FD, twin Diesel, was to be our retirement start, The great Loop, after a 1 1/2 year prep. On initial trip (had 10 days for 1000 miles) at sweet spot (still trying to figure out)7 knots +/- she burns 3gal/hour, at 8 knots 5 gal/hr, holds 750 gal. On hard until retired, getting work done. Retired 1/15, stocks crash, big loss of expected funds. Still planned to splash 4/22 and head back home 5/1. Unexpected medical finding on routine preventative testing 2/14/22, CABG scheduled 3/17, Yup Cabbage for an Irishman on St Paddy's day. All my plans in the crapper, Mortality looking me squarely in the face. Surgeon says I can do nothing for 8 week post op. I calculate 500 gal in tanks...I'll pay whatever it takes to top those tanks and be able to bring her up home, praying that I can. It's all relative, we'll follow our priorities, years ago paid close to $10/gal for gas for sleds in remote Canada and was happy to get it. We'll tighten our belt and soldier on...Life is Short, Live it.

 

[NEtrawler58]

I had prostate cancer surgery on 3/17 a couple years ago so I know the feeling. I hope the luck of the Irish is with you.


Regarding stock losses, remember it's only a loss on paper. It only becomes a real loss if you sell. Also, the value of your stock fund may be down from what it was a few months ago, but that's not necessarily a loss. It may still be a gain depending on when you bought.

 

[BandB]

Just 2 cents from a lurker I recently bought a new to me boat, FD, twin Diesel, was to be our retirement start, The great Loop, after a 1 1/2 year prep. On initial trip (had 10 days for 1000 miles) at sweet spot (still trying to figure out)7 knots +/- she burns 3gal/hour, at 8 knots 5 gal/hr, holds 750 gal. On hard until retired, getting work done. Retired 1/15, stocks crash, big loss of expected funds. Still planned to splash 4/22 and head back home 5/1. Unexpected medical finding on routine preventative testing 2/14/22, CABG scheduled 3/17, Yup Cabbage for an Irishman on St Paddy's day. All my plans in the crapper, Mortality looking me squarely in the face. Surgeon says I can do nothing for 8 week post op. I calculate 500 gal in tanks...I'll pay whatever it takes to top those tanks and be able to bring her up home, praying that I can. It's all relative, we'll follow our priorities, years ago paid close to $10/gal for gas for sleds in remote Canada and was happy to get it. We'll tighten our belt and soldier on...Life is Short, Live it.

I think you post also shows the counter to those who say not to let the fuel costs or economy change plans. Everyone is in a different situation. I believe for some that world events and their personal situations will lead to giving up boating and for them it will make sense. While we love boating, life on land can also be nice and some will find that now makes sense. Everyone has to look at their personal situation.

Hope your recovery goes well. Sorry for your health issues. Best of luck moving forward.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Well said B&B and I agree and have been saying the same. As a survivor of cancer surgery (so far) on a previous 3/17, I wish Wild Bill all the best and hope it's a lucky day for him.

 

[FWT]

If fuel price is the fear, take cheer. Oil futures down 12.5% today.

Nothing important is predictable.

We generally take today’s trend and extrapolate it out forever. Which is generally wrong.

 

[FWT]

Just 2 cents from a lurker I recently bought a new to me boat, FD, twin Diesel, was to be our retirement start, The great Loop, after a 1 1/2 year prep. On initial trip (had 10 days for 1000 miles) at sweet spot (still trying to figure out)7 knots +/- she burns 3gal/hour, at 8 knots 5 gal/hr, holds 750 gal. On hard until retired, getting work done. Retired 1/15, stocks crash, big loss of expected funds. Still planned to splash 4/22 and head back home 5/1. Unexpected medical finding on routine preventative testing 2/14/22, CABG scheduled 3/17, Yup Cabbage for an Irishman on St Paddy's day. All my plans in the crapper, Mortality looking me squarely in the face. Surgeon says I can do nothing for 8 week post op. I calculate 500 gal in tanks...I'll pay whatever it takes to top those tanks and be able to bring her up home, praying that I can. It's all relative, we'll follow our priorities, years ago paid close to $10/gal for gas for sleds in remote Canada and was happy to get it. We'll tighten our belt and soldier on...Life is Short, Live it.

Just wow.

Condolences.

Not to make light, but encouragement, medical science on that just keeps improving. Trust in the doc and the good Lord, and you will be boating soon enough.

 

[Slowboattochina]

We bought an old fashioned motorsailer so at least going downwind might be free.

 

[cbouch]

You picked the wrong hobby...sell the boat while the market is as hot as it is...then pick something like backpacking..

 

[NEtrawler58]

You picked the wrong hobby...sell the boat while the market is as hot as it is...then pick something like backpacking..

I disagree. The stock market could come back quickly. It's all a guess, but if you are in retirement, you shouldn't be relying on stocks for short-term income for living or vacation expenses. I'm not saying don't be in the market, but at your stage of life you should have a couple years worth of living expenses in a secure place other than stocks. Talk to an advisor if needed, but regardless, now is not the time for panic selling unless you have no other choice.

Depending on the seriousness of your health issues, your retirement or boating enjoyment timeframe may be shorter than you originally expected. So that makes it even more important to realize "life is short" and do what you can while you still can.

Regardless of what you decide I wish you the best possible outcome on 3/17. If you believe in the luck of the Irish, think of it as a good sign and embrace the positive thoughts that may bring. It helped me a bit for my surgery 3/17/20, just as Covid was breaking out and shutting everything down. Probably the worst part was getting dropped at the door of the hospital with no visitors till I got picked up a few days later.

 

[Robster_in_edmonds]

Tom (firehoser75) is spot-on. The next decade will be brutal for everyone other than Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi (I picked one from each side of the aisle, my point being that somehow our politicians always seem to do just fine...).

Inflation will eat away at the spendable incomes of retirees, increase the tax burden of the employed, interest rates will eventually rise and slam housing prices in many areas. It will be a tough decade for young families and couples starting a family. On the other hand we will have to make the best of whatever gets thrown our way. So grin and bear it, as they say.

 

[catalinajack]

Tom (firehoser75) is spot-on. The next decade will be brutal for everyone other than Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi (I picked one from each side of the aisle, my point being that somehow our politicians always seem to do just fine...).



Inflation will eat away at the spendable incomes of retirees, increase the tax burden of the employed, interest rates will eventually rise and slam housing prices in many areas. It will be a tough decade for young families and couples starting a family. On the other hand we will have to make the best of whatever gets thrown our way. So grin and bear it, as they say.

Baloney. You have made a ridiculous assumption it seems, that inflation will continue ad infinitum or at least a decade. It will not. It will disappear in 18 months. If interest rates increase, it will decrease the demand for housing, so, no, housing prices would not be slammed in that case. You pretty much have it back aswwrds.

 

[catalinajack]

I assume your finances are based on yearly, monthly and weekly avg's for income and expenses. You have two variables (Money and Time). Right now, you're really only looking at one of them.



1) Move less frequently and stay in any one place longer. Your fuel expenses are budgeted for the month, so only move as far as your budget allows in any one month. That means less travel hours in a month. This requires spending more time sitting in each location.



2) Anchor out more. This is the only way #1 (Above) works. You can't spend money on the slip trying to save for fuel.



3) Eat out less. (fairly obvious)



4) drink out less (or not at all). #3 and #4 are probably our largest money pit.



5) Food Expenses: Skip the $28/lb rib eye and get the chicken, or ground beef at the grocery store. Skip the beer and drink booze. Move down a shelf in the liquor aisle.



We basically spent 6+ weeks in one location in 2020 and 10+ weeks in one location in 2022. The slow pace of just sitting around is the cruising.

Beef prices are elevated but $28 ribeye? Not even close. At least not where I live.

 

[Simi 60]

So very glad we bought the comfortable and capable "off grid" living option

Never use a marina - no need for a power cord
Just the cost of a liveaboard marina here for a year would cover several years worth of diesel.

As it stands, it covers our yearly boat running costs including paid maintenance

 

[Simi 60]

We bought an old fashioned motorsailer so at least going downwind might be free.

As long as you never have to buy sails, rigging etc.......oh wait

 

[Bryant]

Hello,

Well I jokingly always said to myself that right before I retire (57) and went cruising (Mainship 40) the market will dump and fuel prices will get un-affordable. well......yeah.

I have the boat ready (as I can tell it needs to be) to head north to the Chesapeake area but the budget I worked out no longer is any good...
Cost
I had hoped to head north the first week of April but now not so sure.

Head South instead. Cruising costs From The Dismal Swamp to Daytona Beach with the St Johns River as a side trip are much more reasonable than other areas on the East Coast. There are lots of areas to explore. That’s one option. Lots of anchorages, marinas are cheaper and fuel generally runs lower.

 

[Johnnymc]

The only thing I have to add is that the high price of fuel will find its way into every other part of maintaining your boat. Every thing that's made needs fuel from production to delivery so it may be a challenge for everyone until things calm down. I'm retired also and what I worry about is overall inflation. It always go's up, it's just a matter of how fast, and my retirement will never keep up with it.

 

[BandB]

Beef prices are elevated but $28 ribeye? Not even close. At least not where I live.

Wifey B: Not even for Prime?

 

[Robster_in_edmonds]

Responding to Catalina Jack: First off, let's keep conversations conversational. No need to have an argument. Neither one of us has a crystal ball, just our opinions.

I lived through the early 1980's, bought my first home when a 30-year fixed mortgage was 18%, and a few years later moved and bought my second home when interest rates were around 15%. Inflation created havoc in the stock market and interest rates froze house prices for at least 3-4 years if my memory serves. It took multiple years of wage hikes for the average worker's income to get back to the buying power they had prior to the inflation years. Some would argue that they never fully recovered their buying power...

So I have personally seen historical evidence of what inflation can do. The current rising oil prices will have a multi-year impact on transportation costs, manufacturing costs, electricity and household heating bills and so on.

This is just one person's opinion...

 

[Bryant]

Cost

The only thing I have to add is that the high price of fuel will find its way into every other part of maintaining your boat. Every thing that's made needs fuel from production to delivery so it may be a challenge for everyone until things calm down. I'm retired also and what I worry about is overall inflation. It always go's up, it's just a matter of how fast, and my retirement will never keep up with it.

One year ago we were energy independent and a net exporter, gas was $1.89-$2.00. Diesel was $2.75-$3.50, inflation was just over 1%. For the last year we’ve been buying fuel from OPEC and Russia. Today, just over a year later, inflation was announced at 8%. Gas is $4.50-$7.50, diesel is $6.00 and all going up. This will domino and everything will go up accordingly. This may begin to ease after the mid terms and may drop precipitously after the next general election, depending upon what happens. Government policies have a direct impact upon the economy. Inflation doesn’t have to constantly go up. Elections have consequences.

 

[bowball]

One year ago we were energy independent and a net exporter, gas was $1.89-$2.00. Diesel was $2.75-$3.50, inflation was just over 1%. For the last year we’ve been buying fuel from OPEC and Russia. Today, just over a year later, inflation was announced at 8%. Gas is $4.50-$7.50, diesel is $6.00 and all going up. This will domino and everything will go up accordingly. This may begin to ease after the mid terms and may drop precipitously after the next general election, depending upon what happens. Government policies have a direct impact upon the economy. Inflation doesn’t have to constantly go up. Elections have consequences.

As an economist, I can tell you with certainty the election had nothing to do with your facts as stated.

 

[JLD]

Government policies have very little to do with the current increase if the price of oil and gas in the U.S. There is a world marketplace for oil. It is this world marketplace that sets the price for oil, and the price that we pay at the pumps is a reflection of the world market. We currently produce and consume about 20% of the world's oil supply, and are the world's larger supplier of oil.

Here's a chart from EIA.

From the same link, "Historically, the United States has been a net importer of petroleum. During 2020, COVID-19 mitigation efforts caused a drop in oil demand within the United States and internationally. International petroleum prices decreased in response to less consumption, which diminished incentives for key petroleum-exporting countries to increase production. This shift allowed the United States to export more petroleum in 2020 than it had in the past."

Russia produces about 11% of the world's oil supply and consumes about 4%. Even if no one purchased Russia oil, it would be a matter of the rest of the world making up this 7%. It wouldn't surprise me at all if China agrees to purchase some of this Russian oil, although they would probably demand a discount from Russia to do so.

Jim

 

[NEtrawler58]

Wifey B: Not even for Prime?

Last I checked, prime filet was going for $39/lb in the local grocery store here.