Collision and demasting

[Don L]

I have posted this in 3 forums. Only on this one is there someone insisting they have never encountered an unlit commercial fishing boat. There have been comments about others encountering in the same area as my collision. BTW I just looked it up and we were in a Right Whale Critical Habitat, not saying that matters as I don't know the reqs for that.

Again I am not saying they didn't have any lights on. But I am 100% positive that they didn't have the lights on that were on when we first saw them right before the the collision.

 

[CharlieO.]

The fishing boat probably said the same thing your wife did and lit themselves up.

 

[Blissboat]

I have posted this in 3 forums. Only on this one is there someone insisting they have never encountered an unlit commercial fishing boat.

I had intended to post that I do not recall ever encountering an unlit fishing vessel, but then maybe I didn't notice them because they were operating without lights!

 

[sunchaser]

Again as mentioned, without radar or AIS that is not a safe way to travel at night.

 

[psneeld]

I have posted this in 3 forums. Only on this one is there someone insisting they have never encountered an unlit commercial fishing boat. There have been comments about others encountering in the same area as my collision. BTW I just looked it up and we were in a Right Whale Critical Habitat, not saying that matters as I don't know the reqs for that.

Again I am not saying they didn't have any lights on. But I am 100% positive that they didn't have the lights on that were on when we first saw them right before the the collision.

I will put my credentials up against most forum posters on this topic....i have no reason to lie, can't say the same about others or they had the same experience as you. No seeing something doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I never said it couldn't hapoen, just not as likely as what some people think.

Easy enough to check with NMFS to see if they are a sady operation or standup guys.

Again, running dark near a law enforcement training area is not a smart move.

 

[Don L]

never mind, I am a proven dangerous boater and eveyone should be happy to see me leave, I was there so what would I know anyway

have more important things to stress over

 

[O C Diver]

The original post indicated being 2 miles offshore at the time of the incident. I'm not going to say they couldn't have been fishing, but that's pretty close in to be dragging a net. If they were returning North and the OP's vessel was heading roughly South (165 degree heading), one could imagine where the boats were on a near reciprocal course. I can visualize where the deck lights might be blocked by the bow of a large fishing vessel.

None of this excuses why the fishing vessel told the USCG they were fishing at a slower speed.

Ted

 

[CharlieO.]

I will put my credentials up against most forum posters on this topic....i have no reason to lie, can't say the same about others or they had the same experience as you. No seeing something doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I never said it couldn't hapoen, just not as likely as what some people think.

Easy enough to check with NMFS to see if they are a sady operation or standup guys.

Again, running dark near a law enforcement training area is not a smart move.

F\V Provider, dragging for scallops just east of Yakutat at late 90's we tried going dark to fish just outside the boundary. Another fishing boat turned us in after the fishery.
F\V Alaska __________ trawlering off the Aleutians we would go dark and run decoy lines to try to not be so noticeable to other vessels in the fishery. Quota fisheries can be brutal trying to get your share.

 

[Mambo42]

So sorry to hear you lost your boat (basically).
My guess is that the sailing vessel simply claimed to have the nets out, since that would give them the right of way. Yes, ultimately they also have a responsibility to avoid a collision, but most of the burden would be on you.

 

[PierreR]

Again as mentioned, without radar or AIS that is not a safe way to travel at night.

Dang, 50 years of cruising unsafely.

 

[PierreR]

So sorry to hear you lost your boat (basically).
My guess is that the sailing vessel simply claimed to have the nets out, since that would give them the right of way. Yes, ultimately they also have a responsibility to avoid a collision, but most of the burden would be on you.

I would not have guessed that a 6 knot closing speed with that kind of low to the water boom strike would do that kind of damage. 10 knots yes.

 

[psneeld]

F\V Provider, dragging for scallops just east of Yakutat at late 90's we tried going dark to fish just outside the boundary. Another fishing boat turned us in after the fishery.
F\V Alaska __________ trawlering off the Aleutians we would go dark and run decoy lines to try to not be so noticeable to other vessels in the fishery. Quota fisheries can be brutal trying to get your share.

So you are comparing fishing in Alaska to off St Augustine, Fl?

 

[psneeld]

I would not have guessed that a 6 knot closing speed with that kind of low to the water boom strike would do that kind of damage. 10 knots yes.

Really? Watch the videos of sailboats getting dismasted hitting bridges at a lot less than 6 knots.

 

[PierreR]

Really? Watch the videos of sailboats getting dismasted hitting bridges at a lot less than 6 knots.

Yeah when the bridge is 25' off the water but not ten feet or so. Masts are pretty strong down low.

 

[Bmarler]

I guess I’d have to concede that they could have been running dark. I’ve never done it, and I’ve never seen any other fishing boats in the fleet do it either. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. There’s always some bad actor out there it would seem. I have decades of cruising experience, thirty years of that on sailboats, and I can in fact say I’ve missed things till they were close calls. Not often, but more than once.
But then again, experienced crew, scanning before changing watch is a time of heightened scrutiny so you do a proper handoff. Fresh eyes on watch, collision in twenty minutes. Something weird was going on I think.
Does the whale zone make any difference to fishing rules?

 

[psneeld]

Yeah when the bridge is 25' off the water but not ten feet or so. Masts are pretty strong down low.

Snap a forestay and tell me how strong a mast is at 25 versus 10 feet.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

Wife and I have been going to Crescent Beach during that time for the last 5 years except for this year when we were there 10 days prior. We stay at the Beachers Lodge just south of the 206 Bridge on the beach. We always stay on the top/4th floor. I always take binoculars. Watch the traffic going south and the shrimpers doing their thing. Got to say, at night they are not lit up like deadliest catch. Most have running and trawling lights lit. A few not so much.

 

[psneeld]

My experience with most shrimp trawlers at nkght.....

 

[PierreR]

Snap a forestay and tell me how strong a mast is at 25 versus 10 feet.

I have seen some pretty good collisions that did not demast larger sail boats. It's likely the forestay snapped.
I guess my point is, given the nature of how quickly the boat appeared I have my suspicions that the closing speed was higher than 6 knots

 

[mvweebles]

Moving on from Monday-morning review of the accident, what are the lessons to learn?

1. Radar watch by either/both boats would have reduced/eliminated chance of accident
2. Anyone who thinks AIS is more valuable than Radar is mistaken.
3. My 36-mile Simrad 4G radar is decent, but I wish I had spent more and gotten a better one.
4. Sometimes, stuff happens.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

Sailboats(called yachts here) here in Australia, especially cruising offshore yachts, commonly fit a radar reflector in the rigging to potentiate reflection.

 

[sunchaser]

Moving on from Monday-morning review of the accident, what are the lessons to learn?

1. Radar watch by either/both boats would have reduced/eliminated chance of accident
2. Anyone who thinks AIS is more valuable than Radar is mistaken.
3. My 36-mile Simrad 4G radar is decent, but I wish I had spent more and gotten a better one.
4. Sometimes, stuff happens.

Peter

Don’t forget

5. Observant watch standers

 

[magna 6882]

The whole story just sucks. Life can change so quickly.A couple things i am confused about. I have two fixed VHF radios and a handheld. One on 16 and the other scanning.
Did you only have the one handheld or did i miss something?
The most concerning thing to me is why would the boat leave when there was obviously a person in need. I would never consider leaving a fellow boater in distress even if they ask me to go unless i was absolutely certain they could get home safely or the coast guard was on scene.
Its just sad they left you.

 

[SteveK]

Don, glad you/wife survived to tell the tale.

Some math. two vessels on reciprical course closing in bow on at 6 knots. It would only take 30 minutes for contact. The curvature of the earth allows 3 nautical mile visibilty. So it is not surprising Don did not see anything 20 minutes before. what is the height above sea on your sailboat where the wife was standing, perhaps less than 6 feet making visibility even more than 3 miles, maybe 4 miles and about 20 minutes from not seen to impact.
Don, your wife was behind the clear vinyl of the bimini, right. I had trouble seeing clearly through that in daytime.
Your running lights low to sea level they may not have seen them until close. Radar? Very few sailboats register enough to separate from debris or birds IMO.
Just bad luck, right place at the wrong time.


But there is the silver lining, you can now pull the trigger on a trawler. (too soon?)

 

[CharlieO.]

So you are comparing fishing in Alaska to off St Augustine, Fl?

Nope, just comparing fishing boats to fishing boats, and responding to the fact that some people saying they have observed active fishing without lights being insinuated that they may be liars.

I also thought shrimpers ran their lights to try to attract more shrimp their way?

 

[psneeld]

Nope, just comparing fishing boats to fishing boats, and responding to the fact that some people saying they have observed active fishing without lights being insinuated that they may be liars.

I also thought shrimpers ran their lights to try to attract more shrimp their way?

Not calling anyone a liar. Just because I never saw one doesn't necessarily infer someone was lying, just that other explanations might be possible as the no lights in question was a low probability in this case.

My accident investigation training again and again emphasized witnesses/participants in incidents are not great sources of facts, not because they are liars, they just relay what they believe to be factual which is often found to be only part of the full puzzle.

 

[Don L]

I am reminded why I considered not posting the story.

 

[PierreR]

How difficult and time consuming would it be for a shrimper to turn around and come back for assistance while dragging a shrimp net? How long would it take to bring in the rig?

 

[mvweebles]

How difficult and time consuming would it be for a shrimper to turn around and come back for assistance while dragging a shrimp net? How long would it take to bring in the rig?

If he were dragging a shrimp net, he would have been dragging the OP's 41-foot sailboat too since it was the boom that dismasted his sailboat. Not sure how you square that except to say the fishing boat wasn't fishing, which means he was unlikely to have been doing just 2-kts.....and makes it more possible that he had no work/deck lights on.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

If he were dragging a shrimp net, he would have been dragging the OP's 41-foot sailboat too since it was the boom that dismasted his sailboat. Not sure how you square that except to say the fishing boat wasn't fishing, which means he was unlikely to have been doing just 2-kts.....and makes it more possible that he had no work/deck lights on.

Peter

That is the elephant in the room for me.