Cheap sailboaters

[CDreamer]

In popular anchorages, I'm glad to pay a nominal mooring fee. The alternative is some numbskull hooking his anchor on my rode or swinging into me at 0300.

BTW, thinking about danderer's original comment, as both a sailor and power boater (equally) for 50 years I'd like to say that as a personal observation, the average sailor has a higher level of multiple skill sets and knowledge on the water than the average power boater. Moreso if they race which is still a gentleman's - and gentle woman's - sport. (That isn't an "absolute" statement and it certainly doesn't include the BVI's where the bareboat catamaran renters are often complete morons and should be given a very wide berth whether they're sailing or under power).

 

[fstbttms]

Mooring balls should be free.

Bwhahahahaha! I guess you won't mind if I park my RV in your driveway for a few days then.

 

[fstbttms]

Sorry, but that makes you a thief.

Absolutely. "I'll feel free to use your property without notice or permission, and then leave without paying because you didn't read my mind or go out of your way and come out to my boat to find me before I left."

Talk about a sense of entitlement.

 

[Bigsfish]

Fbottoms

Poor analogy, Lou owns his driveway but we all own the navigable water. Now ask him if he would mind if you parked your RV on the street in front of his house. (Of course the Po Po might not like tha).

If you advance the argument to its far end might not all the anchorages be filled with mooring balls and the government collecting fees from all who use them?

 

[fstbttms]

Fbottoms

Poor analogy, Lou owns his driveway but we all own the navigable water.

I disagree. Lou does not own the mooring ball he's using without permission or payment.

 

[Bigsfish]

Sorry, I thought your point was would he like someone parking on his property.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Indeed my driveway is a private property, the street a public property, you can park in front on my house I have no issue with it, and if you are kind with me we could end up having a cold one together on my patio
What I meant is that while mooring ball are a property, the place where they are is a public place. It is like painting 2 lines on the street in front of my house and ask you to pay me to be able to park your RV there.
Anyway I am sure you got what I mean, I don't want it to become an endless debate I was just giving an opinion, and as we all have an ass we also all have an opinion

L.

 

[fstbttms]

Sorry, I thought your point was would he like someone parking on his property.

That was my point. Whether it is me parking an RV in his driveway or him tying up to a mooring ball- same, same, all samey same. In both instances, it's using somebody else's property without permission or payment.

 

[Lou_tribal]

That was my point. Whether it is me parking an RV in his driveway or him tying up to a mooring ball- same, same, all samey same. In both instances, it's using somebody else's property without permission or payment.

To be clear, I am not using anything without permission or payment, it was expressing a thought, I never used anything without paying my dues when needed

L.

 

[psneeld]

That was my point. Whether it is me parking an RV in his driveway or him tying up to a mooring ball- same, same, all samey same. In both instances, it's using somebody else's property without permission or payment.

Wouldn't that depend on whether the mooring is legal or not?

Cape May, NJ Harbor for decades has had illegal moorings....30 years ago I had one put in for me....had I called anyone to get a trespasser off...I would have been laughed at....if I could have even reached someone who would listen to me.

Sure there are legal ones in the eyes of local enforcement...even if they may violate federal law....kinda like legalized marijuana.

 

[fstbttms]

Wouldn't that depend on whether the mooring is legal or not?

Cape May, NJ Harbor for decades has had illegal moorings....30 years ago I had one put in for me....had I called anyone to get a trespasser off...I would have been laughed at....if I could have even reached someone who would listen to me.

Sure there are legal ones in the eyes of local enforcement...even if they may violate federal law....kinda like legalized marijuana.

Now you're parsing. In the hypothetical situation being discussed, the boater was on a mooring, the use of which he expected to be charged for. I think for the sake of arguement, it's safe to say it was a legal mooring.

 

[twistedtree]

Enter "destination" moorings. The town clerks in Maine will happily accept mooring fees for moorings set far from shoreside resources, in historic anchoring grounds.

This sets aside that chunk of water for the exclusive use of one individual, 365 days a year. Most only visit their destination moorings on the occasional weekend.
/QUOTE]



Wow, I've never heard of that before, and agree it's a real problem. In our town in Mass, mooring permits require habitual use, or they get revoked. They are meant for boat storage, not a place to go picnicking for the day. I think destination moorings should be for general public use with access rules and fees applied as reasonable for the situation.

There was an interesting discussion a while back about whether private moorings are by default available for pubic use, or by default not for public use. It was an eye opener for me because in all my experience a private mooing is just that - private and not up for grabs when no boat is on it. But clearly the norms and expectations are different from region to region. If I returned and found someone on my mooring, I wouldn't have a fit, but would expect them to move promptly. If the boat was unattended, or they dragged their feet moving, then I would start to get upset. And if people were regularly jumping on it and I was frequently having to wait while people move, I would probably post a sign on the mooring. It's not unlike someone blocking your driveway. No big deal once in a while, but if it's regularly happening, then it's time to take corrective steps.

 

[twistedtree]

I think the street parking analogy is better when you consider parking regulations. Certain areas are designated for certain uses, time limits, etc. It's a public right of way, but regulated.

The waters are a public right of way, but regulated - in this case with respect to private mooring placement. I'm sure the regs vary from location to location, but in our part of Mass a private mooring permit is for use by a specific boat. Us by other boats isn't permitted save for a few detailed exceptions. But it is specifically not up for grabs by anyone who comes along. Other boats can pass by, but they can't interfere with your permitted use of the mooring. So anchoring in a way that would entangle you would be a problem.

I think the key issue here is that a lot of people equate the notion of public waters, or public lands with no rules.

 

[markpierce]

Please, just pay and be done with it without guilt.

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

Nevertheless, I've noticed a pattern of some using the moorings without paying, arriving after park rangers have "gone to bed" and leaving before they return to duty. Strange, because mooring is more difficult than anchoring.

 

[Tom.B]

I disagree. Lou does not own the mooring ball he's using without permission or payment.

I think they are right... the driveway analogy may not be the best one... put the RV in the street and put a parking meter there and you would be onto something

 

[twistedtree]

Getting back to the original issue, I agree that arriving and departing after hours to get free dockage is just a shithead move. But it's also important not to assume that's what everyone is going. I've had to leave early in the past and simply call the marina/whatever and pay by card once they are open.

 

[markpierce]

Sailboaters have a reputation for being cheap because some brag that sailing is as free as the wind.

 

[BandB]

Getting back to the original issue, I agree that arriving and departing after hours to get free dockage is just a shithead move. But it's also important not to assume that's what everyone is going. I've had to leave early in the past and simply call the marina/whatever and pay by card once they are open.

Years ago we were with some acquaintances on the TN Tom and we got held up by barges in the locks. Finally we got through and somehow found out way to a marina. Now, there was one other boat there and they told us that most of the electric didn't work, they'd just strung it up since the fire. Our boat owner used the generator. The next morning we get up at 7. We see the sign on the door that says the hours are 8 to 6. No one shows up, but the couple in the other boat are up and tell us that the girl who owns it generally shows up sometime between 10 and 11. There is no phone number shown on the door either. Unfortunately, we needed gas so waited. However, had we not needed gas, we would have been long gone. I don't know if we would have called back and paid, because we had no number. The one the boat owner had for the marina had been disconnected. Apparently a prior owner. She showed up at 10:30. We got fuel. She said no charge for docking.

 

[BandB]

Sailboaters have a reputation for being cheap because some brag that sailing is as free as the wind.

Nothing wrong with being cheap or frugal. However, when you expect something for nothing and want everything to be free to you, then that's an issue. I admire those who are able to get by on very little and be happy. Now, stealing services such as mooring or marinas, I don't admire. It is a crime. Morally and legally in my mind.

 

[markpierce]

It would be nice if a marina regularly/publicly offered a night's free docking after one has purchased several hundred dollars of fuel.

 

[BandB]

It would be nice if a marina regularly/publicly offered a night's free docking after one has purchased several hundred dollars for fuel.

Some do. Marinas like other businesses have all sorts of deals. Discounts on fuel. Free night for large fuel purchases. Free nights added on so a free after paying for three or something like that. I've seen it all. However, they need to collect the same amount from customers. The one that gives free dockage with fuel isn't likely to be the one that has the best fuel price. The one that gives discounts for Boat US or Seatow or anything else, probably starts higher. It's all just marketing. Some have the marketing gimmicks and some don't.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Bwhahahahaha! I guess you won't mind if I park my RV in your driveway for a few days then. [/QUOTE

In our part of Los Angeles we have dozens of shabby old motor homes belonging to homeless people parked on the street. Would you like to have a rundown 1975 class C with three or four scruffy men living in it parked in front of your house for a month or two? How about one with a couple of "ladies" in it who entertain gentlemen callers all evening? No problem, right...?

 

[Lou_tribal]

prefer to remove this to not start a strike

 

[menzies]

What a load of balls!

 

[Bay Pelican]

Sailboaters have a reputation for being cheap because some brag that sailing is as free as the wind.

Mark

The comment I hear from sailboaters is "the wind is free and so should be everything else".

 

[FF]

Regulations on moorings imposes safety.

Perhaps where you are but in much of the NE moorings are for revenue for the local town .

Case in point is Sag Harbor where they have a gov built seawall, and do not reserve 50% for free and open transients. They seized it ALL.

To add insult they "declared " about 3/4mile of the shore nearby as another "mooring field" .

There are 2 moorings in 3/4 mile , but if someone anchors there the town sends out a boat to threaten fines.

AS I understand the law installing a mooring does NOT give ownership to the nearby area.

So anchoring inside or near a mooring field can not be prohibited.

But dont tell that to the towns summer boat boy with a uniform and gun!

 

[CDreamer]

I've done a lot of sailing from round-the-buoys racing to serious offshore work. Let me tell ya, the wind might be free, but those big white triangles that catch the free wind can make up for it. Dacron was one thing...Kevlar is a whole different cost structure! For the most part I'm a power boater now and it is more expensive...although a mooring ball rents for the same rate. Or a transient slip. Food, electronics, Shiner Bock, teak oil, etc. all cost the same. Look for common ground..er...water. It's all good stuff.

 

[Bay Pelican]

Over the last five years I have asked several cruising sailboaters how much they have spent in the last five to ten years on their sails, rigging and canvas work as well as diesel.

My estimate is that the free wind for the sailboaters costs more than the diesel power for a long range trawler - (that is assuming 2.5 to 3.5 nm per US gallon). The trawlers seem to spend more totally on repairs but then they seem to have systems not present on the sailboats, such as washing machines, freezers, TV reception, etc. The main diesel engine repairs were not significant for either the trawlers or the sailboaters.

 

[BandB]

Over the last five years I have asked several cruising sailboaters how much they have spent in the last five to ten years on their sails, rigging and canvas work as well as diesel.

My estimate is that the free wind for the sailboaters costs more than the diesel power for a long range trawler - (that is assuming 2.5 to 3.5 nm per US gallon). The trawlers seem to spend more totally on repairs but then they seem to have systems not present on the sailboats, such as washing machines, freezers, TV reception, etc. The main diesel engine repairs were not significant for either the trawlers or the sailboaters.

Just like power, sailboaters cruise in different ways and with different levels of expenditure. There are those who have incredible boats, the most expensive sails and always well maintained. Then at the other end you have those who do everything themselves, even the sails, have old sails and equipment. Example of the latter would be the French couple that was causing all the hubbub in NC and then ended up in the Bahamas illegally.

 

[FF]

Inshore a rag boat is either day sailed for fun or in transit where the engine will get most of the miles. In most cases like the ICW the sails are emergency gear. Although there are great days for sailing.

Offshore the wind does 99% of boat movement , with the diesel doing reefer and battery charging.

2 hours of noise every 3rd day was enough during Carib transits from the NE and visits .

Eutetic mechanical refrigeration , minor electric loads even before LED lights.