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Old 07-29-2017, 06:39 AM   #61
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The boat in that picture could see conditions change from what's in the picture to taking lots of green water over the bow in a matter of minutes at the west end of the canal. I have seen it many times. All of Buzzards Bay can turn treacherous for small craft with a 15knt wind and opposing tidal current. And there will be no mention of Small craft warnings as these conditions are to be expected on most "Blue Bird Days".
Ever area of the country has patches of water that get rough from daily conditions....and as you sai, they are expected, not unpredictable "in minutes".

Many inlets on a busy summer day can be a "washing machine" with standing wakes from large vessels run poorly.

Suggesting one patch of water is more death defying than thousands of others and bowriders should be run near empty and only on fkat water only convinces me I boat in a different world than some here on TF.
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Old 07-29-2017, 07:00 AM   #62
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Its up to the skipper as to where they boat, what kind of boat, and what conditions they venture out in. Unfortunately the passengers are captive once they leave the dock. And I am not comparing conditions to any other part of the country. I only know what I know. And the boat in your picture is not one that I would be comfortable with in Buzzards Bay with less then ideal conditions But I see them everywhere so maybe I am just the odd man out.
Different flavors of ice cream I guess.
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Old 07-29-2017, 07:40 AM   #63
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People do the dumbest things believing it could never happen to them!

Here is proof of it!

Boaters help family from capsized sailboat during rough water on Lake Erie | fox8.com

Cheers

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Old 07-29-2017, 10:41 AM   #64
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I do believe threads like this are very beneficial. There are no convictions from them and most of us don't profess to know how this specific accident was caused. However, we do identify a lot of potential causes or things that might impact it.

Safety is not a subject most are truly passionate about until an event like this takes place. It leads to a lot of discussion that needs to take place more often, not less. It's unfortunate it takes such an event to lead to it. Just in this thread the following subjects and more, all which contribute to tragedy at sea and any of which may or may not have contributed to this one, have been discussed.

-Overloading. Seen every day. Regardless of the plate on the boat, I consider 3 adults and 9 kids more than I would personally ever take on the boat in the photos or any 23' bowrider. It's fine if others disagree, but still a worthwhile discussion. I'm sure most of us have seen many cases of boats we considered overloaded, but they're only discussed as they should be when a tragedy takes place. US builder's plate are consistently higher than I would load. Even an Australian plate is in this case where it would have said 8, but count children as 0.5 so there were only 7.5 loaded.
-Sea conditions at that location, their ability to change quickly, dangers there, getting information. Again, whether any of those conditions is the cause of this event or not, it's beneficial to discuss conditions there and to warn those who haven't been there. Just like when there's an accident off the coast of Hatteras we discuss the issues of going around Hatteras.
-Bowriders for coastal and ocean use. I think it's fair to say they have some inherent risks solid bows do not. They're appropriate for some conditions, not others. We had a 30' Bowrider we loved and miss, but we sold it when we moved to the coast. Types of boats for coastal use is always a good topic. I see skiff's and flat boats go beyond the areas I would in one.

The official report on this accident will come out one day. It won't get the attention nor invoke the passion that is here today while the event is fresh on the minds of everyone. This was a tragedy and I think it's good that it gets us to talking about issues of safety. No one here is professing they can render a verdict or even have all the facts. All we know is a boat overturned and one life is very much in peril. We don't know why it overturned but we know at least some things that might contribute to such an event, all worth discussing.

The question is sometimes asked, how would those involve feel if they read this. Well, I imagine they're asking themselves many questions already and feel about as bad as they can. I can't imagine that speculation in any way surprises them. I would think they look to friends for comfort, not strangers on a trawler forum.

I find it interesting how often colregs are discussed here and even more on sailboat forums. Yet, colregs or not understanding them are seldom the cause of tragedies at sea. Often it's poor judgement in advance. More often it's an instantaneous mistake. We're human. We make mistakes. However, by discussing these issues we can only hope perhaps one in the future is avoided.

We might ask ourselves too. I've heard of people calling the coast guard because they were annoyed over wakes or someone went by them too fast. I know I've seen hundreds of what I termed to be unsafe situations and I don't call. I did call the game wardens on the lake sometimes. What should we be doing when we observe a boat we consider overloaded, one we consider inadequate for where it's headed, one we consider to be operated by those too intoxicated to make good judgments? Perhaps we'd all benefit from starting a thread of potentially unsafe operation we observe and what we should or shouldn't do. What about the 18 bowrider going out the inlet, 8 people aboard, no one wearing a PFD, in 3' at 4 seconds? What about the 14' sailboat in 30 knot winds and 4' seas with two aboard? What about the surfer after the beach has been closed? I'm going to start a thread.
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Old 07-29-2017, 10:49 AM   #65
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Ever area of the country has patches of water that get rough from daily conditions....and as you sai, they are expected, not unpredictable "in minutes".

Earlier this year I was surprised by very rough seas in my home waters. Classic case of not paying enough attention to the conflict of strong wind against a very strong current. I've boated on these waters my entire life, yet still found a bad spot at a bad time. So I certainly recognize how that can happen.

It made for a very unpleasant half hour before I was able to work my way into a different part of the tidal stream to get out of the truly bad seas. However, I was doing it in a boat that was more than capable of handling those waters, even with a bonehead like me at the helm.
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:06 AM   #66
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What about the 14' sailboat in 30 knot winds and 4' seas with two aboard?

Been there, done that. It was great. 14' C'Lark sailboat. My Dad and I took of in the sailboat in the winter, in 20-30kt winds, just because it was fun. Sure, we had full wetsuits on and were experienced both in sailing in rough weather and in righting the boat after a capsize (which we did a couple of times).

The C'Lark is a self-bailing boat. Once you right it after a capsize, it starts to drain. It's inherent floatation is such that when you right it, it is already riding high and not swamped. Many sailboats are designed similarly because they are meant to be sailed hard, right on the edge. As such, they will capsize and can be easily righted. There is a reason why every junior sailing program teaches the kids how to right a capsized sailboat almost from the very beginning.

I only point this out because whether something is safe or unsafe has a lot to do with not only the boat and the conditions, but the skipper and crew. What is their experience level? How are they equipped (PFD, cold weather gear, etc...)
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:15 AM   #67
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Discussing unsafe practices is way different than taking a specifc incident, with little or no info, and saying because it is beyond ones comfort level or capabities, it is unsafe for everone else and borderline criminal.
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Old 07-29-2017, 11:20 AM   #68
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Been there, done that. It was great. 14' C'Lark sailboat. My Dad and I took of in the sailboat in the winter, in 20-30kt winds, just because it was fun. Sure, we had full wetsuits on and were experienced both in sailing in rough weather and in righting the boat after a capsize (which we did a couple of times).

The C'Lark is a self-bailing boat. Once you right it after a capsize, it starts to drain. It's inherent floatation is such that when you right it, it is already riding high and not swamped. Many sailboats are designed similarly because they are meant to be sailed hard, right on the edge. As such, they will capsize and can be easily righted. There is a reason why every junior sailing program teaches the kids how to right a capsized sailboat almost from the very beginning.

I only point this out because whether something is safe or unsafe has a lot to do with not only the boat and the conditions, but the skipper and crew. What is their experience level? How are they equipped (PFD, cold weather gear, etc...)
Part of why I put ? on all of the examples. It's hard to know. Hard to judge. I recall when two kids were lost off the coast of South Florida in a small fishing boat, one captain who observed them heading out the inlet as he was coming in captaining a large sportfisherman. He tried to radio them but no answer. Tried to motion. He figured, oh I'm worrying for nothing, they'll be ok. He didn't know their plan was to cross to the Bahamas. Per a friend of his, he had to get treatment as after hearing of their death, he couldn't sleep and couldn't get them off his mind. All he could think was questioning what he could have, should have, done.

I see sailors in small boats going out when I wouldn't but I don't know. I know they'd think I was silly. But then I see some not make it back or others require rescuing. I can't tell as I'm not a sailor and I don't know their experience either.
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Old 07-29-2017, 12:09 PM   #69
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BandB, you have admitted here regularly that until not long ago you had very limited experience with various type boats and boating in general.

You have gained a lot of experience fast, but like other operating occupations, you can build hours fast, but experience comes from all but hours.

An airline pilot or sea captain can have many years on tbe job without things going wrong or be challenging...it is a combination of many things that gets some through emergencies and others not.

Sayng that you wouldnt do many things that pop up here on TF that others have done and done safely without hesitation might speak to that.

Most wouldnt do tows or salvages that I do routinely...but I do them after a lifetime and two careers of figuring out how to do them safely....not because I have ever been a natural or really good at anything.

My old boss and I did a salvage this morning. A quick look at the Noreaster hitting Jersey right now tells the tale. He is begging me to come back to work after going through dozens of captains....why?..real experience.

These guys look great on paper...all the right quals and training....but not REAL experience. The kind you only get from pushing the envelope, yet safely staying on the edge without crossing it.

I know there are just regular joe boats owners here on TF that could teach me a lot, their lifetime on the water beats mine hands down. They have their comfy zones and red flags like I do.

But the amount of monday morning quaterbacking with incidents from the El Faro, to the Navy destroyer, to this and any boat crash, with only a news article or two for info is comical....and not worth discussing as an incident. Generic boating habits sure.

And every comment that smacks of limited experience stands out like a sore thumb to those that have it.

I am glad that the internet was not around years ago.....I might have been monday morning quaterbacking out of turn too.
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:44 PM   #70
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BandB, you have admitted here regularly that until not long ago you had very limited experience with various type boats and boating in general.

.
That's a bit wrong. I had an extreme high amount of lake boating prior to 2012. As to this situation probably more experience with and observing bowriders in the size range of this one than anyone here. Ignoring completely the hundreds of days of boating an hour or two I had over 1000 days of "sea time" at that point. I had never done coastal boating.

Since then I have over trained through courses and practical training with very experienced captains and been surrounded by great engineers. I've covered over 80,000 nm, accumulated another 1400 days of sea time, obtained my 200 Ton including STCW endorsement and about 50 days short of 500 Ton. This has been on many boats from 39' to 130'.

I don't profess to know everything about every boat and I respect your experience a great deal. On the other hand I don't like you diminishing any of my knowledge or experience. I have knowledge in areas you don't, both boating and otherwise.

I've not done salvage, towing or rescue and admire those who have, such as you. I also have full right to opinions.

I can say without hesitation I would not load that 23' bowrider with 3 adults and 9 children. Others are free to say they would. I can also knowledgeably address what I know goes on in the shipping world and with TOTE and similar companies and their ships and crews even though I've never crewed one of their boats. I have close friends in the commercial world. Regardless I can and will say that the boat shouldn't have taken the route it did and I hold TOTE more responsible than the captain. Now, holding them responsible is a business philosophy of mine that you don't put your employees at risk. I also followed the forecasts of Joaquin very closely from it's outset and observed the actions of others as I was on the East Coast heading south at the same time. I can give my opinion on the Bounty and I believe the owner working through his non-profit should have been held more accountable. I made no observations on the navy destroyer because I had no idea until it unfolded further what was going on nor how they work. I did understand the limitations of the other boat.

I don't profess on any of this that mine is the only opinion. However, i will continue to freely offer it and if you don't like it, that's fine.

There isn't anything wrong with me saying I wouldn't do things that others have done. I wouldn't jump out of an airplane but know those who love it. I'm sure I've done things that others wouldn't do. I have read the stories of those with no experience setting out and circumnavigating on a small sailboat. I wouldn't do that. That's not a debatable subject as I know I wouldn't. I boat at speeds others here wouldn't and many make it clear they have no interest in speed. I don't take offense to them not sharing all my interests.

I respect everyone here and their experiences but also their opinions. They've probably never owned jet Rib's but they can freely say they never would. Unlike you I don't attribute every comment I disagree with to someone else having limited experience. I also often speak personally to others with great experience in other areas for their opinions but when I come and express them here I don't say "my source who is an experience engineer and expert in exhausts" says. I respect your source's knowledge in certain areas, but I also respect the knowledge other engineers have.

So, back to the topic at hand. I wouldn't load a 23' bowrider with 3 adults and 9 children. I fully recognize the plate on the boat probably says that is ok. I would advise great care in the area of the accident especially with a small boat. I only had to go through there twice to say that, seeing it gentle and rough. People take chances I wouldn't. I'm not a risk taker, especially when it comes to children. If I was a parent, I'd probably be an overprotective one. The loading of the boat may have nothing to do with what happened, but doesn't change my view that I wouldn't load that boat like that and head out there. If you would that's fine, and I won't say you have no right to that opinion just because I have more days boating on bowriders than you do. (or I might, I don't know how many you've owned, i do know you've rescued more of them than I have).
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Old 07-29-2017, 01:50 PM   #71
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Nobody said you did anything wrong and "only" lake boating is by definition limited boating. And please dont think all my comments were specifically directed at you.

My point is about you or anyone that makes a fuss that because they wouldnt do something, that people who do it a lot see the self imposed limitation as self imposed and not really a limitation for anyone else.

But my constant theme here on TF from electrical to operations....

One shouldnt make one's own limitations the limitation for others. Hammering a personal view several times is a bad habit of mine too....just pointing it out

I dont comment on someones limited experience unless they try and make it a standard or use it as a guide or measure for others. If I have, I apologize. I dont expect all boaters to be great, as in the pointt of me saying there could have been unknown factors here, not just an incompetent skipper.

I hate driving a car, I hate going above 70, I hate traffic. But I don't backseat drive or complain that the guys in the fast lane are unsafe because they are going 10 or 15 over the speed limit. 20 or 30 might get a comment. But I dont sit there and repeatedly say I would never do it. Because it is MY limitstion, clearly not whay many others do day in and day out.
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Old 07-29-2017, 03:57 PM   #72
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..how is the bow of this bowrider any more susceptible to waves over the bow than a center console many here would ohhh and ahhh over as a great offshore fishing boat? Seriously..... Quote from PSNeed

Ocean going center consoles generally have a bigger bow flare and more of a plumb stem to give them more bouyancy forward. A center cosole doesn't have room for 12 people to sit down, and it doesn't encourage people to sit in the bow. My bowrider was considerably smaller, but just one adult up in the bow area made a huge difference in taking waves on the bow. The first adjustment I'd make when waves picked up was to get everyone behind the windsheild. If there are not enough seats for everyone behind the windshield you can't do that.

The Center Console would have an outboard, which would move the center of gravity further back, making the bow more responsive to waves.

An even bigger difference would be that a open water oriented boat would be self bailing. Any water that enters a Four Winns bowrider has to flow down to the bilge and then be pumped out. The CC would have the ability to shed water through scuppers much faster. With a large amount of water and a lot of people above the deck, the boat becomes unstable very quickly and prone to capsize.
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Old 07-29-2017, 04:21 PM   #73
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Horsepuckey...

All generalizations of bowriders and center consoles. Heck some center consoles have huge sitting benches either side in the bow. So many more boats out there than many here seem to know about.

I have run a bowrider in a 3 foot chop at over 50 miles an hour offshore. It was a 28 Sea Ray and had 4 in tbe bow.

I seriously think I boat in a different workd as I see bowriders punching through the steep chop in my inlet with inexperienced skippers all summer long....without incident.

Not all bowriders are equal, like skippers and obviously perceptions.
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Old 07-29-2017, 04:23 PM   #74
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Saw almost all of the bottom paint on a southwester 50 yawl exiting the area just a bit before the time the incident occurred. We were anchored within 2 miles of the accident unbeknownst to us at the time. We saw a pair of helos come in about a half an hour after anchoring. It was so gnarly my wife commented look at that sailboat as we were turning the corner to our anchorage. Definitely 4 x 4's at the time. Green water over the decks on a hinckley are not a problem if the hatches are all dogged. A poorly piloted open boat wouldn't have had a chance that day at that time. Ebb was 4.5 knots against a 15 knot breeze.
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:30 PM   #75
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...just one adult up in the bow area made a huge difference in taking waves on the bow. The first adjustment I'd make when waves picked up was to get everyone behind the windshield
Well actually no. Moving everyone back could guarantee a swamping in a following sea. The operator was heading home in a following sea. Sea conditions were reported by cafesport as 4X4, ebbing tide, 15 kn wind [SW] (Very typical for area)

If operator had electric trim then it wouldn't matter where people were seated. Manual trim can't be adjusted in rough conditions so he might have had it bow high to compensate for people n the bow. If bow people were getting soaked then they may have moved aft. In 4X4's operator was probably going slow. Trying to pound through them would be like sitting inside of a wet jackhammer.

Pure conjecture on my part but my guess is he took a 5 or 6 footer over the low riding stern while going slow. Once full of water, the boat is going to turn beam to and then roll.

I don't see much difference between a 24 bowrider and a 24 CC. Neither are self draining, neither have scuppers, and both have low transoms. If either one of them take a 6 footer over the transom it's game over.
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:47 PM   #76
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Well...I dont think thats true of all center consoles, some have full transoms with outboards on brackets (but an old school transom with flapper board can dunp a full cockpit with some throttle), most have scuppers/drains, but true that most are woefully undersized.
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Old 07-29-2017, 06:52 PM   #77
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Horsepuckey...

All generalizations of bowriders and center consoles. Heck some center consoles have huge sitting benches either side in the bow. So many more boats out there than many here seem to know about.

I have run a bowrider in a 3 foot chop at over 50 miles an hour offshore. It was a 28 Sea Ray and had 4 in tbe bow.

I seriously think I boat in a different workd as I see bowriders punching through the steep chop in my inlet with inexperienced skippers all summer long....without incident.

Not all bowriders are equal, like skippers and obviously perceptions.
Well, I wouldn't personally run a 23' CC with 3 adults and 9 kids either. I don't think of a 23' CC as being significantly different than a 23' bowrider. A 39' CC perhaps.

As to your 28' Sea Ray, it's a lot more boat than the one in the photo and this event, not that we yet know for sure what that boat was. If 23' Four Winns, it would actually be a 230 which LOA is 21'4" and 8'5" beam, 3850 lbs. Capacity 11 vs say a Sea Ray SLX 280 is 28'6", 9' Beam, 7018 lbs. Now those might not be the two boats but that just illustrates the difference.

People run them all with loads and in conditions I wouldn't choose to. I've owned bowriders from 17' to 30' and as you go up the size scale a lot of difference. The only small CC I've operated didn't compare in handling seas to our even smaller RIB.

All bowriders and all CC's are not equal.
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Old 07-29-2017, 07:20 PM   #78
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Which has been one of my points from the beginning.

A statement like bowriders should be confined to small and flat waters was just one of the many statements made in this thread readily disputed.
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Old 07-30-2017, 12:57 PM   #79
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Update the local news is reporting the 8 year has passed away.
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Old 07-30-2017, 01:05 PM   #80
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Update the local news is reporting the 8 year has passed away.
Wifey B: So tragic to see the loss of a child's life. Emotions rage from anger to heartbreak. Right now there are parents feeling pain that most people can't imagine, the loss of a child. It's so unnatural. Parents are, by the laws of nature, supposed to outlive their kids. If the driver or owner are not the parents then their feelings of sadness and guilt will always be with them. That's why we must discuss incidents like this as the information unfolds so that others don't have to go through what these people are today.
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