10 Common Buyers’ mistakes during Survey

[twistedtree]

To Bacchus's point, has anyone undertaken a sea trial and had the owner/operator refuse to run at WOT? We have one or two people here saying they would refuse - just wondering if anyone has encountered it as part of an actual sea trial?

 

[mvweebles]

Well......I sent my Sea Trial template to a newbie buyer a month or so ago. A week later I get an inquiry from them saying seller doesn't want to do the WOT test because engines are 40 years old. Asked what I thought. I told them what I've said here - I cannot in good faith advise they move forward.

I don't know the outcome, but if I were a betting person, knowing what little I know of buyer, they likely bought anyway. They felt pretty comfortable with the seller so guessing they felt the seller was just being cautious (perhaps parental?), and buyer was not knowledgeable enough to push back. Sellers reasoning likely sounded reasonable to them. Plus they really liked the boat.

Peter

 

[Gdavid]

Pretty sure there is no way in hell an otherwise healthy engine will experience a catastrophic failure such as throwing a rod or breaking a shaft due to WOT. If it does, it was on its last legs anyway and probably good to know now rather than later. As you suggest, most likely is temperature climbs and the test is shut-down. No harm just aborted.

I agree that its not reasonable for a used-boat buyer to expect new. But I also don't think its reasonable for a seller to not demonstrate the engine is 'fit-for-purpose.' WOT is not an arbitrary test - it's been used by OEMs for decades as a benchmark to see if the engine is within spec.

As TT said pretty eloquently, it's certainly within the buyers prerogative to refuse to do a meaningful WOT test. But the optics are really bad. For those on the sell side, you may want to do a little research and see if you can get comfortable with a WOT test. Otherwise, you may narrow your buyer pool.

Good conversation -

Peter

I agree it is a good conversation, certainly warrants discussion and I think it is clear that not all owners are comfortable with this industry standard test.

I have seen a shredded impeller lead to a melted piston within a minute. That was on a gasoline engine but a catastrophic cooling failure can cause damage quite fast even to a perfectly healthy engine.

I think my knee jerk reaction is the prospect of not being there, and for this reason I will be sure to run the boat myself or only with a very trusted mechanic onboard monitoring things carefully. It isn't that the boat shouldn't be capable of passing this test but the idea of trusting strangers to carry this out. The owner is responsible for running the boat or providing a captain and , frankly wasn't impressed with the mechanic that ran my current boat for the sea trial. He shrugged his shoulders at discrepancies between the upper and lower station temp and oil pressure readings. I probably shouldn't have bought the boat but I knew what I was getting into, it needed work but he was willing to run it hard anyway.

Communication is key, it would not be appropriate for an owner to stipulate against WOT for 5 minutes without prior communication. It should be clearly communicated prior to accepting a written offer.

 

[carlosmahr]

Hello all:

I just acquired in La Paz, Baja California a Roughwater Pilot House Trawler 41 and I am trying to get my port registration. I need to provide the maximum capacity of passengers for trawling and the weight of the vessel.

Does anybody can please help me on this information?

Bests Regards

 

[firehoser75]

Shawn,
This is meant as constructive criticism not a personal attack, but if your intent was just to state your opinion (or actually how you would operate your boat during a sea trial) then maybe starting with the "this is such bu....." is not helpful or gives a bad first impression?? Just a suggestion. And yes, your boat, your rules!

Personally I agree with Steve D. I operated my boat 95% of the time at about 1/2 throttle (12-1400 rpm) which achieved hull speed, so every 8-10 hours I would run the engine up to 2100 or so for 10 minutes followed by 5 minutes at WOT (2800+). The engine (a Cummins 6BTA M3) is rated to be able to run much longer than that at WOT, so well within limits. The purpose: to ensure everything is operating properly (no unexpected heat rise, leaks, overheating (I would use a infrared thermometer to check), no black smoke (which would warn of engine overload and/or an over propped condition), etc.), also to ensure the engine got fully up to operating temps, and to reduce any potential "carbon" buildup, as well as to check the turbo operation as normally there would be no boost. This "higher" than normal rpm run was usually done near the end of the day not far from our destination (when area appropriate).
As far as selling the boat and a sea trial, I would have no issue taking her up to WOT (after a full warm up) for 5-10 minutes for the buyer and mechanic to "check out" various items so as to know "what they are buying". I would not run her longer than that at WOT as it would not provide any additional info.
According to the "experts" (Tony Athens, Steve D., most mechanics I have talked to (quite a few), Cummins provided info, etc.), if an engine is not run beyond it's rating (in my case length of time at WOT) and is in good condition, then WOT for short periods is not harmful, and probably is good for it.
Caveat: I am not a certified mechanic, but am a relatively experienced boat owner who did most of my own maintenance, the opinions are my own, gained from experience, a lot of research, and talking with many "experts" whose opinions, training, knowledge, and experience I do trust.

 

[Rufus]

I'm curious if the old 70-80s tractor, taxi, and truck engines were certified (by Perkins or Ford) in accordance with modern marine rating standards.

 

[Don L]

Well......I sent my Sea Trial template to a newbie buyer a month or so ago. A week later I get an inquiry from them saying seller doesn't want to do the WOT test because engines are 40 years old. Asked what I thought. I told them what I've said here - I cannot in good faith advise they move forward.

I don't know the outcome, but if I were a betting person, knowing what little I know of buyer, they likely bought anyway. They felt pretty comfortable with the seller so guessing they felt the seller was just being cautious (perhaps parental?), and buyer was not knowledgeable enough to push back. Sellers reasoning likely sounded reasonable to them. Plus they really liked the boat.

Peter

Did they get an engine survey/////////

 

[sunchaser]

Last week we did a WOT test. I was quite happy to see RPMs got to 2500. No elevated temperatures, hose leaks or exhaust smoke with vibration nil. But, the PSS shaft seals were spraying too much. The seals are at the mfrs due date so new ones are being installed as part of our annual haul out.

A WOT test can reveal some unexpected things, best to find them early.

 

[mvweebles]

Did they get an engine survey/////////

I don't know. They were on the fence when I last spoke to them. Relatively low value boat - under $50k for a 35-footer. I'm hopeful it worked out. Someone up-thread on this thread said they bought their boat without a survey or mechanical survey and had no regrets.

The issue is it's hard for a newbie to comprehend just how expensive marine engine repairs can be. Spending an extra $1k on a mechanical survey is a lot even though repairing an engine in a cheap boat is the same as an expensive boat. Some things you just have to learn the hard way. 30-years ago a raw water pump shaft broke and an engine overheated. Fortunately, I knew a guy on the dock who was a decent wrench and cut me a deal on the repairs. Was still $8k ----- I had just moved to San Francisco and was making around $40k/yr which seemed like a decent living until that shaft broke.

Peter

 

[Rufus]

We purchased our boat 17 years ago with no survey. We did have oil samples tested. No surprises.

 

[rslifkin]

I'm curious if the old 70-80s tractor, taxi, and truck engines were certified (by Perkins or Ford) in accordance with modern marine rating standards.

That's where the challenge comes in. If there's not a known rating for how long the engine is expected to run at WOT or another metric to watch like EGT, I'd err on the side of caution and try not to stay at WOT for longer than necessary to assess proper operation.

 

[twistedtree]

That's where the challenge comes in. If there's not a known rating for how long the engine is expected to run at WOT or another metric to watch like EGT, I'd err on the side of caution and try not to stay at WOT for longer than necessary to assess proper operation.

A quick look shows the Lehman is rated to DIN 6270 "B", which according to a Cat document falls between 50% and 80% of operating time at full power. That's out of a 12hr run time, so you could run at full power for 6 to 9 hrs.


These engines are not fragile, unless they are broken.

 

[rslifkin]

A quick look shows the Lehman is rated to DIN 6270 "B", which according to a Cat document falls between 50% and 80% of operating time at full power. That's out of a 12hr run time, so you could run at full power for 6 to 9 hrs.


These engines are not fragile, unless they are broken.

Based on that, I wouldn't be concerned with a few minute WOT run with one of those.

 

[Rufus]

This document says 100% power intermittent for not more than 1 hour out of 8. (The rating info is listed after all the various charts...deep in the document).

https://everythingabout.boats.org/lehman-6d380/

Given that most of the Lehmans on this forum trundle around in the hull speed range, and given the number of failures I've seen on the forum over the years, I'd say they're not particularly robust.

 

[boomerang]

Shawn,
This is meant as constructive criticism not a personal attack, but if your intent was just to state your opinion (or actually how you would operate your boat during a sea trial) then maybe starting with the "this is such bu....." is not helpful or gives a bad first impression?? Just a suggestion. And yes, your boat, your rules!

Personally I agree with Steve D. I operated my boat 95% of the time at about 1/2 throttle (12-1400 rpm) which achieved hull speed, so every 8-10 hours I would run the engine up to 2100 or so for 10 minutes followed by 5 minutes at WOT (2800+). The engine (a Cummins 6BTA M3) is rated to be able to run much longer than that at WOT, so well within limits. The purpose: to ensure everything is operating properly (no unexpected heat rise, leaks, overheating (I would use a infrared thermometer to check), no black smoke (which would warn of engine overload and/or an over propped condition), etc.), also to ensure the engine got fully up to operating temps, and to reduce any potential "carbon" buildup, as well as to check the turbo operation as normally there would be no boost. This "higher" than normal rpm run was usually done near the end of the day not far from our destination (when area appropriate).
As far as selling the boat and a sea trial, I would have no issue taking her up to WOT (after a full warm up) for 5-10 minutes for the buyer and mechanic to "check out" various items so as to know "what they are buying". I would not run her longer than that at WOT as it would not provide any additional info.
According to the "experts" (Tony Athens, Steve D., most mechanics I have talked to (quite a few), Cummins provided info, etc.), if an engine is not run beyond it's rating (in my case length of time at WOT) and is in good condition, then WOT for short periods is not harmful, and probably is good for it.
Caveat: I am not a certified mechanic, but am a relatively experienced boat owner who did most of my own maintenance, the opinions are my own, gained from experience, a lot of research, and talking with many "experts" whose opinions, training, knowledge, and experience I do trust.

Haha ,no, that's perfectly alright. No offence taken. I realize it was rather uncouth of me to open a post like that but I've never been know for not saying what's on my mind ...or thinking before I speak.
It just caught me so wrong ,that there's the belief that theres only one way of doing things. I have no problem running a newer engine to WOT to make sure it's performing to spec. My point is that an older engine is just that, older. It's not the same as when it was built. I also understand that the WOT test is for testing external components such as manifolds ,heat exchangers, coolers, etc. I maintain everything to the best of my ability and part of my maintenance is not intentionally subjecting my older equipment to excessive condition. If I'm bucking a 2-3 know current, I leave my RPM's where they are and live with my slower SOG vs increasing my RPM's to maintain my speed. Everyone on here has agreed that their engine has a "sweet spot" where it sounds best. That's where I run it. Any higher RPM's and the engine just doesn't sound good. 10 minutes is too much, IMO.
The last boat I sold, with a vintage Perkins, was sold without a surveyor. The folks figured out quickly that I was honest and knowledgeable about my boat. We seatrialed it ,the buyer asked me what speed I cruised it I told them 1650-1700. I don't think we ever ran to WOT for a couple of seconds, if that. The boat then sold and continues cruising the east coast with no issues.
The boat I sold before that had a vintage 6V-53. He asked me what RPM to cruise it, I told him and that's where he cruises it to this day, 6-7 years later. No WOT seatrial (a 6-53 sounds like they're coming apart at WOT even when new!).
The boat before that, same thing. A Shamrock inboard with a 350 Pleasurecraft marine engine.We went out with a surveyor this time. The surveyor told me to run it up wide open. I told him I never run my boats like that. He insisted I push it. I begrudgingly pushed it up to WOPT and watched him poke around with his infrared thermometer in the usual spots for about 30 seconds until I couldn't stand it any longer. I pulled it back and he looked up and said "leave it WOT". I looked him in the eyes and told him that's all he was getting and he wasn't getting any more. He grumbled, made his recommendation to the buyer who still bought it and it went on running for years. At the RPM's I cruised.
Same with every boat prior. All seatrialed with no surveyor and only a brief burst of WOT. Guess what? They all continued to give the owners excellent service for as long as I kept up with the next owners.
A surveyor is a regular person, just like me. The only difference is they have a notebook full of a bunch of standards that that have compiled over the years by a bunch of people who don't know my boat. I know my boat & it's systems. I'll pass on to the buyers how I run MY boat so that they can continue to have good service for most likely years to come. And I tell each prospective buyer that IT's A USED BOAT. Don't expect it to perform like new. No surveyor is needed to figure that out.

 

[mvweebles]

My point is that an older engine is just that, older. It's not the same as when it was built....... IT's A USED BOAT. Don't expect it to perform like new. No surveyor is needed to figure that out.

First, good that you've had success finding buyers who were able to satisfy finance and insurance requirements without a survey. I would think that's rare.

As most longterm TF contributors know, almost every part of Weebles is new. I thought about re-powering my 1988 Perkins 4.236 75hp with a Deere 4045, also around 80hp. Had I thought my Perkins was no longer capable of performing within OEM specs, I would have re-powered. I just don't agree with your premise that the bar should be lowered for age in this case. If the engine does not operate within specs, I want to know why long before I head on a cruise through Central America.

My read of your post is you believe your engine operates fine within your self-imposed limits but may no longer capable of performing to OEM specifications. If that's not worrisome enough, you are not allowing an objective evaluation to determine the extent of degradation (if any). The risk is a knowledgeable buyer will either walk away, or add a significant risk-premium to their offer (assuming they can even close the deal due to finance/insurance contingencies). This isn't about trusting or believing you, due diligence is prudent business when making a major purchase.

I can tell from your post that your heart is in the right place. But I have to observe, the optics and messaging are just awful.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Hello all:

I just acquired in La Paz, Baja California a Roughwater Pilot House Trawler 41 and I am trying to get my port registration. I need to provide the maximum capacity of passengers for trawling and the weight of the vessel.

Does anybody can please help me on this information?

Probably better to start a new thread with some of your question in the title.

-Chris

 

[jleonard]

I'm curious if the old 70-80s tractor, taxi, and truck engines were certified (by Perkins or Ford) in accordance with modern marine rating standards.

The 1978 Mainship I had came with a Perkins T6.354 diesel (160 hp). The operating manual said it could run at WOT (2400) for one hour, then back off 150 rpm for 10 minutes, then repeat the cycle.

 

[mvweebles]

The 1978 Mainship I had came with a Perkins T6.354 diesel (160 hp). The operating manual said it could run at WOT (2400) for one hour, then back off 150 rpm for 10 minutes, then repeat the cycle.

I reached out to TAD for insight on my Perkins WOT. Response was less than I hoped for but still informative.

Good Morning.

If you look at the setting number on your injector pump you will see something like this,

EH700/0/2800

(The last four digits are the maximum rpm your pump is set at.)

I interpret this to mean the injection pump is set to a value that does not exceed the engines specification for WOT. In essence, unlike a typical gas engine on a car/motorcycle, a diesel engine cannot be over-revved.

I kicked of this conversation saying that as a seller, I was fearful of WOT but as buyer, I would insist. Having done some research along the way, I can report that I am much less concerned about WOT testing of my engine, and much more firm about requiring it if I were a buyer.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

What is the purpose of a WOT marine Diesel engine test?

- To ascertain if vessel is propped correctly
- Are fuel delivery systems and governor controls ok
- To assess drive train vibration
- Do motor mounts show excess movement
- Do engines maintain proper temperature
- Are coolant and raw water hoses bulging or leaking
- Is exhaust grey, black or clear
- Is oil pressure steady
- Is engine smooth
- If the engine is newer with electronic sensors a proprietary laptop hookup will reveal a wealth of information, at least a dozen key outputs

Most of these can be observed at 80% fueling with the WOT run up fairly brief. Many SD or planing boats require full throttle to get "over the hump". If one's engine cannot easily push the boat to hull design speed red flags will likely appear.

What else should we add to the list?

 

[mvweebles]

What is the purpose of a WOT marine Diesel engine test?



- To ascertain if vessel is propped correctly

- Are fuel delivery systems and governor controls ok

- To assess drive train vibration

- Do motor mounts show excess movement

- Do engines maintain proper temperature

- Are coolant and raw water hoses bulging or leaking

- Is exhaust grey, black or clear

- Is oil pressure steady

- Is engine smooth

- If the engine is newer with electronic sensors a proprietary laptop hookup will reveal a wealth of information, at least a dozen key outputs



Most of these can be observed at 80% fueling with the WOT run up fairly brief. Many SD or planing boats require full throttle to get "over the hump". If one's engine cannot easily push the boat to hull design speed red flags will likely appear.



What else should we add to the list?

Good list. Only comment: what is brief? 5-min is likely minimum to give confidence the cooling system is operating as intended. The Steve D article describes 10-min at WOT, then 30-mins 80% RPM.

Thoughts?

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Good list. Only comment: what is brief? 5-min is likely minimum to give confidence the cooling system is operating as intended. The Steve D article describes 10-min at WOT, then 30-mins 80% RPM.

Thoughts?

Peter

It'll depend on the engine and how big the gap between max continuous and WOT is. Personally, I'd do a good run at max continuous before the WOT run. If everything is good before going WOT, then a quick visual check for any changes in hoses, etc. at WOT and a confirmation that the engine temps aren't climbing significantly after pushing the throttle(s) forward should be a good indicator.

It's unlikely that you'll have an engine run cool at max continuous but overheat at WOT and also take more than a few seconds for the temperature to start climbing at least a little bit at WOT. And even on a "short" WOT test, you'll often get a minute or 2. We're not talking 20 - 30 seconds here. I'm pretty sure on my boat it takes a good 30 seconds for the boat to stop accelerating when you shove the throttles forward from max continuous, so a WOT test is usually about a minute for me (as you need a few seconds after speed stabilizes to confirm it's steady, as expected, etc.).

 

[sunchaser]

Good list. Only comment: what is brief? 5-min is likely minimum to give confidence the cooling system is operating as intended. The Steve D article describes 10-min at WOT, then 30-mins 80% RPM.

Thoughts?

Peter

Where a WOT test occurs is quite variable as is the boats installed power and mission. A high HP Viking headed 50 miles offshore is with specific objectives. With most (near) FD vessels over powered pushing to WOT except for a test is not a real world scenario.

All too many surveyors or mechanics lack the experience or skill sets to understand how "we" operate our vessels. As example, our optimum cruising speed (1.3X sq RT WLL) is only about 30% power. Other than checking the WOT boxes, even a 30 minute run at 80% is likely triple the time needed to assess our diesel's health.

Then, weather, waves or run space enter into the test. Setting up surveys and a Seatrial requires lots of advance notice. Oh oh, the day arrives and 25 knots and fog requires abandoning the open water area and trying to do a WOT test in a confined area.

My point? WOT tests cannot always fit into Steve Ds ideal regime. Testing a $3 million high powered SD vessel Vs a very low budget trawler may be apples and oranges when WOT day arrives. Thus a good surveyor will draw upon their experience to assess a vesse's health when the full list of WOT tests cannot be achieved.

 

[Stabi]

You are free to not allow that when you sell your boat, .......................... informing a prospective buyer of that position in advance would be worthwhile and may avoid conflict.

The surveyor told me to run it up wide open. I told him I never run my boats like that. He insisted I push it. I begrudgingly pushed it up to WOPT and watched him poke around with his infrared thermometer in the usual spots for about 30 seconds until I couldn't stand it any longer. I pulled it back and he looked up and said "leave it WOT". I looked him in the eyes and told him that's all he was getting and he wasn't getting any more. He grumbled,

Again, PLEASE inform the Buyer BEFORE as a courtesy, so they can decide if they want to continue.

 

[smitty477]

Again, PLEASE inform the Buyer BEFORE as a courtesy, so they can decide if they want to continue.

Ahead of time....
It would be important for any potential buyer and/or their agents to request permission from the seller for any inspections or tests which require any disassembly of machinery, removal of fluids, 'wrenching' of fasteners, disturbing
permanent coverings, etc.
Similarly, on any sea trials the potential buyer should indicate ahead of time of their requirements for any engine tests, intentions of boat handling, and sea state conditions they intend to test.
Any potential buyer should already know what rpm levels and associated speeds the boat will nominally make from their previously answered questions.

There is no possibility that a seller can anticipate the different requirements of various potential buyers.

 

[twistedtree]

This document says 100% power intermittent for not more than 1 hour out of 8. (The rating info is listed after all the various charts...deep in the document).

https://everythingabout.boats.org/lehman-6d380/

Given that most of the Lehmans on this forum trundle around in the hull speed range, and given the number of failures I've seen on the forum over the years, I'd say they're not particularly robust.

Good find. That's better than my indirect interpretation of DIN 6270 "B". 1 out of 8 hrs at full power is right in the same ball park as current manufacturer's requirements for pleasure duty engines, and provides ample time to sea trial at WOT.


As for dependability of Lehman's, they seem pretty good to me. I hear about typical heat exchangers needing replacement which seems normal for a 50 year old motor. The biggest issue is when people overheat them and it causes issues with the #6 cylinder. That exactly the sort of thing one is looking for in a WOT run, monitoring temps of course and backing off if they are climbing higher than normal. But the goal would be to identify and engine that has issues and is subject to such a failure.

 

[twistedtree]

Good list. Only comment: what is brief? 5-min is likely minimum to give confidence the cooling system is operating as intended. The Steve D article describes 10-min at WOT, then 30-mins 80% RPM.

Thoughts?

Peter

I like Steve's approach, though I'd run for a while at 80% first to get things fully warmed up, check for early indications of problems, then proceed to WOT. That may be what he does - I just don't recall from my sea trials with him. Then when you go to WOT, it's checking the things Sunchaser listed, and mostly making sure that the coolant and EGT temps level off at acceptable values. 10 minutes, give or take should do the trick. And I maintain that if an engine can't do that, it's got a problem. It's not just old, but has a problem.


Oh, I'd add blow by to Sunchaser's list.

 

[Rufus]

I copied the following rating blurb off the Perkins web site. FWIW

Rating definitions
Pleasure duty: For vessels operating up to 30% load factor. This rating is intended for pleasure/non-revenue generating applications that operate
less than 500 hours a year. Typical applications could include but are not limited to: High speed planning craft.
Light duty: For vessels operating up to 50% load factor. This rating is intended for applications that operate less than 1500 hours a year in variable
load applications where full power is limited to 2 hours out of every 12 hours of operation and reduced power must be at or below 200 rpm of
the maximum rated rpm. Typical applications could include but are not limited to: planing / semi displacement craft such as customs and police
launches, sport fish charter vessels, passenger carriers, survey craft and long distance cruisers etc.
Medium duty: For vessels operating up to 60% load factor. This rating is intended for applications that operate less than 4000 hours a year.
Typical applications could include but are not limited to: Semi-displacement / displacement craft such as customs and police launches, high speed
commercial fishing, passenger carriers, survey craft, ferries and long distance cruisers etc.
Heavy duty: For vessels operating up to 80% load factor. This rating is intended for applications that operate less than 4000 hours a year. Typical
applications could include but are not limited to: semi-displacement / displacement craft such as customs and police launches, high speed
commercial fishing, passenger carriers, survey craft and ferries etc.
For further details on definitions please contact your local Perkins distributor

 

[twistedtree]

All too many surveyors or mechanics lack the experience or skill sets to understand how "we" operate our vessels. As example, our optimum cruising speed (1.3X sq RT WLL) is only about 30% power. Other than checking the WOT boxes, even a 30 minute run at 80% is likely triple the time needed to assess our diesel's health.

My boat hits that speed at WOT, and I expect is pretty typical for a FD boat. For SD I would agree with your 30%.

 

[twistedtree]

Again, PLEASE inform the Buyer BEFORE as a courtesy, so they can decide if they want to continue.

Yes, I would want to know ahead of time so I could can the deal. To me, a boat should perform to specifications. If the owner is selling a boat that only performs at 80% of specs, or they will only allow it to be operated to 80%, they should say that.